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deffrekka wrote:I actually love Ragnar, I just dont see the connection personally to Ghaz.

Now, that I do agree with, though I don't really have any love for Ragnar. There isn't the same legacy between them - if there had been, I'd be more for it, I'm still not sure why they didn't go with Helbrecht. Hell, even Tu'Shan would have been more interesting (the only Chapter Master to be present for both the 2nd and 3rd Wars, and the Salamanders and Orks make a nice contrast - both industrial, both green, both like things like fire and big krumpy melee weapons, but one is savage and cruel, where the other is humanitarian and more disciplined.

The importance of the duel doesnt really have any solidity to it. Why break a neck and loose a head when you both just get flex taped back to peak fighting form (and better might I add). I could get behind Ragnar tracking down Ghazzie and them closing the noose on him, with aid of some Steel Legion Ork Hunters and a strike force of similar veterans from Ghaz's wars. But I wouldnt have had to duel to begin with.

Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.

And again, a mutual loss isn't really a fun dynamic, for either party.



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 Asherian Command wrote:
ITs been kind of like someone pushed out all this lore at the last minute. There is nothing in this that really pushes 40k or transforms it in anyway real manner. You could skip PA and you wouldn't even know the difference.

Yeah, in all fairness, PA hasn't done a great deal. Vigilus was really good, IMO, gave us a really nice view of how the campaign played out and how to recreate that. Even something like the Death Guard invasion of Tau space never really happened, which is a bit of a shame - that would have been interesting.

I think the main winner from these PA things has been the small little short stories WarCom produce. Some of them are pretty nice, IMO. The actual books? Eh, swing and a miss for me.

Which sucks they really hyped PA as world changing for 40k, and really nothing has happened? I mean these events happened but what does that do for the whole galaxy? These are basically those little blip dots in the codex that are mentioned for a sentence and then immedately forgotten cause they weren't very interesting to begin with.

This is basically having icing on a cake, but there is no filling, no sponge at all in that cake. Its just a gak ton of icing. There is no depth, there is nothing to really talk about that could be discussed in any real manner.

But GW won't learn from this they will continue to print more PAs which are jsut addenums to the rules of other codexes with more abandon, with boring lore, instead of releasing a single campaign pack ala Vigilius.

Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.

Yeah Sgt_Smudge, it does mean literally nothing and thats the silliness behind it all! To me its more of the representation over the physical fight. Who is Ragnar, Who is Ghaz. Why are they fighting. Whats at stake. What do they represent and how does the affect the universe around them. Thats what I care about and obviously we have all had this story out of context, WHC has gave us a mere snippet, but its not a very convincing set up. Pit Ghaz against I dunno Sarpedon, but make it BELIEVABLE and give us a sense of IMPORTANCE. We will find out more when the book is out but its not the best narrative GW has given us throughout the PA series like Asherian Command mentioned before.

I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books make sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much

Asherian Command wrote:Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.

Yeah, Vigilus was definitely at it's best in the first book. I'd argue Abaddon shouldn't have come in, and the BBEG should have been Haarkon Worldclaimer all along. Hype him up as a new Chaos character, and all that - and while we're at it, let's not have Calgar, but someone else? I didn't *mind* Calgar, but I do want a bit of other Chapters too. How about the Silver Templars taking command of the defence?

deffrekka wrote:I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books mike sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much

Yeah, I'm really happy for new Ghaz model, looks gorgeous in my opinion, but I can't say I'm amazed by the narrative on this. It's not the duel that bothers me, so much as "why Ragnar? Why not any other character or faction?".

As I said, Black Templars or Salamanders would be perfect Astartes stand ins, or just go for good old Armageddon Steel Legion.

Cynically, I know why Ragnar. But it just feels lazy, from a narrative standpoint.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Why do you keep comparing the TOP ORK to a number 2 of other factions? This is disingenuous. Ghaz IS our Guilliman. He is above Calgar and Grimnar because they are not the top player in their respective factions. Dante is the top Blood Angel, so he is of equal standing, IMO (unless Sanguinius returns).

Why do you consider Dante the top Blood Angel but Grimnar not the top Space Wolf? There is no confirmation that Leman Russ is alive, in fact there are various bits of lore where Russ himself specifically states he is dying before he goes off with his Wolf Guard never to be seen again.

Not all faction leaders are of equal standing when it comes to martial prowess. If you think about it in base terms when considering characters currently alive in the setting then yes; Ghaz is the most important Ork just as Gulliman is the most important Ultramarine. However Ghaz is NOT comparable to a Primarch in terms of martial prowess, not even close. He is comparable to a Chapter Master on that scale, this is why Ragnar can feasibly go toe to toe with Ghaz and why them dueling to a double death is plausible.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ghaz is MORE than a Greater Daemon. He's the faction leader.

Who do you think are the faction leaders for the Chaos Daemons? It's the Greater Daemons.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Ghaz is THE TOP ORK. As has been stated, like tens of times now, the TOP ORK should not get beheaded to the third (?) Space Wolf. It cheapens him as a character.

Lets be clear. Ragnar Blackmane IS THE TOP SPACE WOLF. However in contrast to other armies it is not in terms of Rank, but in terms of Relevance. He is the one most Space Wolf stories are written about, he is the one who's Great Company is represented on all the box art and sculpts. He is the Main Character/Protagonist of the Space Wolves who has been represented in the setting since Grimnar was no more than a blurb, a picture and a stat-line. Ragnar has been doing Chapter Master level feats since he was a Blood Claw (effectively a Space Marine Scout in Rank). If there is another Space Marine character who has managed to perform the feats as a Scout that Ragnar has as a Blood Claw i have yet to read about it. He is the current Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves; renowned for his combat ability and his incredible reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines. Hell he was the only Space Marine to ever have a Dodge saving throw. His skill and importance is being severely underestimated here.

Given this it is not that far fetched that he has managed to stand up to Ghaz and pull off a double death. It is not like Ragnar drawing with Gulliman like you keep trying to suggest.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Though I would argue Vigilius was not as interesting at the end, it was kind of a flop at the end, they really hyped the black legion and they ran away like cartoon characters.

Yeah, Vigilus was definitely at it's best in the first book. I'd argue Abaddon shouldn't have come in, and the BBEG should have been Haarkon Worldclaimer all along. Hype him up as a new Chaos character, and all that - and while we're at it, let's not have Calgar, but someone else? I didn't *mind* Calgar, but I do want a bit of other Chapters too. How about the Silver Templars taking command of the defence?

deffrekka wrote:I remember when watching the trailer, the feeling I got was, meh? I had such a greater spark with Ghaz's reveal trailer (showing Makari) than the PA6 trailer. There was no connection between the Wolves and Ghaz's Great Waaagh! No snippets in either codex, or prior books. Like some of the PA books mike sense like Greater Good and Faith and Fury (Phoenix Rising and Ritual of the Damned not so much...), they have some lore grounded. This one seems forced for the sake of the name of the PA. Saga of the Beast, well there is only 1 Beast, so Ghaz it is. But hey ho haha! We still get new models and rules so cant complain too much

Yeah, I'm really happy for new Ghaz model, looks gorgeous in my opinion, but I can't say I'm amazed by the narrative on this. It's not the duel that bothers me, so much as "why Ragnar? Why not any other character or faction?".

As I said, Black Templars or Salamanders would be perfect Astartes stand ins, or just go for good old Armageddon Steel Legion.

I whole heartedly agree. Salamanders are actually fairly under-represented in 40k, which is actually kind of sad.

As regards to the whole comparison with Primarchs and Greater Daemons, I think this needs to stop haha! One, Primarchs are in a wholeeeeeeeeeee different ball park of their own. The gap between goal posts is vastly different and if im brutally honest, I dont even see Prime-Orkz even being in the same ranking tier. Primarchs are literal demi-gods created by a near godly being. Its not even a fair comparison hahaha the intellect, innate powers, inspiration and skill surpasses any mortal being. Even amongst the Primarchs some are hugely better than others *cough* Lorgar *cough* pile of trash *cough* but then he fills a different role than his brothers, that of an a orator and a demagogue.

The leaders of the Krork (not the old ones but the actual Orkz themselves), now thats where I would draw the comparison. Ghaz isnt a Guilliman, but where you can compare the two is the seat of power they hold and whilst Roboute's is vastly larger, Ghaz is pretty unmatched in that regards compared to other races out there. Greater Daemons, this is another kettle of fish again. And ones where they are poorly written about, They are unworldly, with knowledge that surpasses any mortal. They are corruption incarnate and a single one on a planet can cause mass carnage and change, with cult uprisings, the planet physically changing and driving people insane. But in the stories, just like the Avatar's of Khaine, they are things for people to beat up on. In reality they are immensely powerful, commanding innumerable legions of lesser daemons, harnessing powers inseen by mortal pyskers. They may not have the plot point and narrative importance of Ghaz, but they are in another tier by themselves and really Ghaz is in his own, He has no comparison, unless your another Ork at his power and stature, you cant compare him to a Human, a Eldar or a Necron. Orkz simply dont follow the same ranking. You can compare a Captain to a Chaos Lord, and Archon to a Autarch but and Ork is an Ork. Figuratively you can make a comparison in the sense of place in the lore, the power they hold, so on and so forth. But everything else, not really.

A Prime-Ork does more than just fight, he shapes those Orkz around him in his image. Thats what Waaagh!s do, they reflect the leader. So thats where I would draw the line, Ghaz is Ghaz. I wouldnt make a comparison against Chapter Masters or Primaechs. They do and act differently than him.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Why do you consider Dante the top Blood Angel but Grimnar not the top Space Wolf? There is no confirmation that Leman Russ is alive, in fact there are various bits of lore where Russ himself specifically states he is dying before he goes off with his Wolf Guard never to be seen again.

Because 40k lore has become so awful, so cheesy and Saturday morning cartoon that even characters that have "died" come back to life. If Sanguinius' death wasn't so ingrained in the lore itself I wouldn't be surprised if he returned, one day. In fact I could see Dante turning into him or something equally banal.

As long as the Primarch has not died (and in some cases, even if they have *cough*Vulkan*cough*), they are presumed alive and now that Guilliman (not to mention Morty/Magnus) has returned to the tabletop (and the lore) the floodgates are open, so to speak. Russ could come back and as far as we know is alive. The same is not true of Sanguinius, who is slightly more 'dead'.

Not all faction leaders are of equal standing when it comes to martial prowess. If you think about it in base terms when considering characters currently alive in the setting then yes; Ghaz is the most important Ork just as Gulliman is the most important Ultramarine. However Ghaz is NOT comparable to a Primarch in terms of martial prowess, not even close. He is comparable to a Chapter Master on that scale, this is why Ragnar can feasibly go toe to toe with Ghaz and why them dueling to a double death is plausible.

Right so Primarch Vulkan could not take the M32 Beast in a straight up fight. He knew this. Ghaz has been repeatedly referenced as the Beast by GW. This PA is literally called "Saga of the Beast". What makes you think that Ghaz is not capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in terms of martial prowess?

I agree that Ghaz would never kill a (none-perpetual) Primarch, because, well, plot armour. But that is not the same as lacking martial prowess.

Who do you think are the faction leaders for the Chaos Daemons? It's the Greater Daemons.

The named Greater Daemons, perhaps?

But your point is a brilliant one because it actually emphasises exactly what I've been saying and why I'm unhappy about this turn of events. Greater Daemons, named and otherwise, serve only as punching bags for the Imperium characters to flex their metaphysical muscles. Has Skarbrand, the most murderous and angry daemon going, who literally tried to kill the god of murder, actually killed a named character? Ever? Genuine question. Don't you think that's fething stupid and awful writing? How about that Khorne Bloodletter, Skulltaker, is it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the best duellists in the setting that is dispatched by Khorne to collect skulls of the worthy? How many named characters has it killed? Name one.

Poor Ghaz is getting turned into a Skarbrand type character here. He's even immune to beheading!

Lets be clear. Ragnar Blackmane IS THE TOP SPACE WOLF. However in contrast to other armies it is not in terms of Rank, but in terms of Relevance. He is the one most Space Wolf stories are written about, he is the one who's Great Company is represented on all the box art and sculpts. He is the Main Character/Protagonist of the Space Wolves who has been represented in the setting since Grimnar was no more than a blurb, a picture and a stat-line. Ragnar has been doing Chapter Master level feats since he was a Blood Claw (effectively a Space Marine Scout in Rank). If there is another Space Marine character who has managed to perform the feats as a Scout that Ragnar has as a Blood Claw i have yet to read about it. He is renowned for his combat ability and his incredible reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines. Hell he was the only Space Marine to ever have a Dodge saving throw. His skill and importance is being severely underestimated here.

Is he as important as Russ? If the answer to that question is "no" then he isn't the TOP SPACE WOLF in terms of relevance, Russ is right? If you believe otherwise then fair enough but I'm not sure I agree (would be interested to discuss further mind).

Given this it is not that far fetched that he has managed to stand up to Ghaz and pull off a double death.

Absolutely, if he truly is the most relevant Space Wolf including all other Wolves then I will concede the point. My understanding is that Russ is by far the most relevant, what with the whole end-times thing and the fact that he's the Primarch?

I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.

Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.

 flandarz wrote:
I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.

Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.

Well we'll see about this. Ghaz may yet be tied to Goffs. Though as far as the lore is concerned he is indeed the most important Ork regardless of Clan I suppose.

With regards to the different Marine Chapters, I guess the players of the different chapters see theirs as the most important/best/coolest etc and to be fair I get that. You're going to find it hard to convince a Space Wolf player that Russ is anything but the most important character in the setting excluding the Emperor himself. Players love their Faction, as I love mine, so I can't criticise a SW or BA or whatever player expecting their 'Top Boi' to be on par with 'Top Bois' from other Factions.

 flandarz wrote:
I still find it weird when people try to pretend like all these Space Marine Chapters aren't all part of a larger whole. Let's say Ragnar is the most important Wolf. Even if we exclude Guilliman, he's still less important than an easy dozen of other Imperial characters. But Ghaz isn't just the most important Goff. He's the most important Ork. Period.

Nothing really to do with the OP on this one. Just lamenting the state of things.

As filled out as the lore is there is still huge vast areas of unexplored blank canvass that GW have to reveal or expand from. The Imperium as a whole has stacks and stacks of books from BL, codexes and games from their perspective. You have lore out of the wazzoo and to a lesser degree so does Chaos Space Marines. Xenos on the otherhand, not so much..... Eldar is the least affected by this as theyve had Phil Kelly love for editions on end, and a good series of novels. Nercons and Orkz are criminally under-represented. We know of Ghaz and some other big players but what of other larger Orkz? Ghaz wouldnt be the only one, take the Grand Warlord. He has literally no fluff. No mention other than a space of territory on the star map. His name would suggest he's a big Ork, or a Freeboota who has a massive ego. Or he's an older more ancient Ork. His Waaagh! is going nowhere and maybe hes had his fill of war. I use to always Imagine the Grand Warlord was some ancient gnarled Ork, bigger than the rest (before the beast arising series brought about the notion of Prime-Orkz) who simply got bored of fighting and ran an empire. The other Ork bosses would respect that and knew not to rile up the Old Skumgrond.

Now imagine if Ghaz had a rival, an Ork of similar pedigree, probably not all about the whole prophet origins but still suitable influential and threatening to the setting. All of sudden that adds some more character and validity to the claim that the Orkz are as dangerous as the lore tries make them out to be. It wouldnt cheapen Ghaz, rivalry between Orkz is a common thing. But we dont get that, we dont get a lot of anything really, special characters (we lost quite a few), model updates (we got buggies but thats not what the Ork range needed refreshing really), books and good rules. So we get lost in the sea of powerful Space Marine tropes and masses of characters all are special in someway or another. The Orkz as numerous as they are surprising have little to them, we have some characters in the fluff but none are really expanded on except with Orky feats such as sucking planets into space hulk sized shokk attack guns, looting whole planets, Orkz coming from different dimensions with extra dimensional tech (if anyone remembers that from the 4th and 5th ed Rule book) and a warboss going through the Warp just before he left and kills himself for a second shoota he loves.

We get quick short fluff sections but nothing in the range and depth as the Imperials. Marines can flaunt their flashy characters and what crazy feats they can do, but what can we do? Most of our characters are just plot devices for theirs. Red Waaagh! was going fine for the Orkz and was actually good, until they brought out Hour of the Wolf that killed it for me. They expanded on Mogrok's side of the Waaagh! and have him killed off at the end.

Fun fact for everyone, Mogrok got his head cut off and attached to a Goff Nobs body in the end of Hour of the Wolf. Its not just Ghaz.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Because 40k lore has become so awful, so cheesy and Saturday morning cartoon that even characters that have "died" come back to life. If Sanguinius' death wasn't so ingrained in the lore itself I wouldn't be surprised if he returned, one day. In fact I could see Dante turning into him or something equally banal.

As long as the Primarch has not died (and in some cases, even if they have *cough*Vulkan*cough*), they are presumed alive and now that Guilliman (not to mention Morty/Magnus) has returned to the tabletop (and the lore) the floodgates are open, so to speak. Russ could come back and as far as we know is alive. The same is not true of Sanguinius, who is slightly more 'dead'.

I agree with a lot of this, i personally still like the lore but you are right it is more of a 'PG' rating than the Heresy era. For all intents and purposes though all the loyalist Primarchs other than Gulliman are 'dead'. They are not in the current setting. Will they return? Anything is possible. With regards to the Chaos Primarchs however they have always been kicking about/getting banished/plotting like Pinky and the Brain.

Would hate to see Sanguinius return. I think it would diminish his sacrifice against Horus and the whole knowing he was going to die but doing it anyway aspect of things. If they were to bring him back i would bet The Sanguinor would be involved somehow.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Right so Primarch Vulkan could not take the M32 Beast in a straight up fight. He knew this. Ghaz has been repeatedly referenced as the Beast by GW. This PA is literally called "Saga of the Beast". What makes you think that Ghaz is not capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch in terms of martial prowess?

I agree that Ghaz would never kill a (none-perpetual) Primarch, because, well, plot armour. But that is not the same as lacking martial prowess.

Was The Beast not also rumored to be over 10 meters tall and capable of dual wielding battle cannons normally sported on Leman Russ Battle Tanks? How tall is Ghaz (pre-decap)? And is this also not a more recent development?

Ghaz could as easily be being refereed to as The Beast simply because he is the closest thing to the Beast there currently is; but that doesn't mean they are on the same scale. And in what way are they being compared? In terms of managing to draw clans together or in terms of personal size and martial prowess? Both? Neither? In some other way? It is possible to be compared in one sense but not the other. Calgar has been compared to Gulliman before, doesn't mean he's on a Primarch's scale, Space Wolves used to have a character called Ranulf who was touted as being stronger than Leman Russ; didn't mean it was true. As a football reference, younger players are getting compared to and being touted as; 'The Next Messi/Ronaldo' all the time. Doesn't mean any of them will ever be as good as they are. Ghaz doesn't have any feats to suggest he is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Primarch. Some hype calling him a Beast without much backing it up isn't going to change that in my eyes.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The named Greater Daemons, perhaps?
But your point is a brilliant one because it actually emphasises exactly what I've been saying and why I'm unhappy about this turn of events. Greater Daemons, named and otherwise, serve only as punching bags for the Imperium characters to flex their metaphysical muscles. Has Skarbrand, the most murderous and angry daemon going, who literally tried to kill the god of murder, actually killed a named character? Ever? Genuine question. Don't you think that's fething stupid and awful writing? How about that Khorne Bloodletter, Skulltaker, is it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the best duellists in the setting that is dispatched by Khorne to collect skulls of the worthy? How many named characters has it killed? Name one.

Poor Ghaz is getting turned into a Skarbrand type character here. He's even immune to beheading!

All of them in terms of combat prowess, the named ones in terms of rank and relevance.

And the way they treat Skarbrand and the other godly beings i agree is stupid. But Ragnar double deathing Ghaz is not the same as the likes of Calgar besting an Avatar of Khaine. The Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons and C'Tan are all godly beings of immense power who Primarchs (who thereselves are godly beings) have struggled with. They rightly should be out of the league of mere mortals (including Ghaz). The only edition their combat prowess was represented correctly was 2nd where Chapter Masters had a less than negligible chance of defeating one in combat. An Avatar or Bloodthirster could have been pitted against a squad of Ghazghul's and would have still won.

I still hate that the setting went from these godly beings like Angron and his Bloodthirster bodyguard needing the entire first company of Grey Knights to bring down (all of which died in the process) to Draigo soloing Mortarion and his entourage. Plot induced stupidity.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Is he as important as Russ? If the answer to that question is "no" then he isn't the TOP SPACE WOLF in terms of relevance, Russ is right? If you believe otherwise then fair enough but I'm not sure I agree (would be interested to discuss further mind).

In the current setting Ragnar is more important than Russ. Russ is a mere folktale and piece of history who's Saga is discussed over a campfire when Bjorn the Fell Handed is awoken from his centuries long slumbers, spoken of in the same breath as The Emperor of Man. They revere him as their gene father just as the Blood Angels revere Sanguinius or the Imperial Fists revere Rogal Dorn. But he is not more important to the current setting than the characters who are out there fighting the good fight, of which Ragnar is the Main Protagonist.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Absolutely, if he truly is the most relevant Space Wolf including all other Wolves then I will concede the point. My understanding is that Russ is by far the most relevant, what with the whole end-times thing and the fact that he's the Primarch?

In 30k Russ is the Top Space Wolf in terms of Rank and Relevance. In 40k it is Logan in terms of Rank and Ragnar in terms of Relevance in the sense that he is the Space Wolf Main Character and Chapter Champion. Just like Ghaz is the Ork Main Character and Ork 'Champion'.

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.

Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?

Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"

as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.

Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?

Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally a manifistation of Khorne. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.

Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?

because he's not really an avatar of gork and mork (in the literal sense) rather he's more akin to their chosen.

He's more a living saint then a primarch.

or Abaddon as opposed to a deamon primarch. at least thats my read.

BrianDavion wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.

Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?

Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"

as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.

Ragnar was originally Russ. The model was literally a sculpt of Russ at one point. The fact that the Ragnar model and Ghaz model were both the OG special character is not much of a similarity between the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?

Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally part of Khorne's essense. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.

Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.

The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype. Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.

Avatars of Gods are perhaps different.

The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype.

He might not have been a god before, but now? Through whatever means, he functionally *is* a deity, like it or not. I think Guilliman, one of the most staunch believers in the Emperor's non-godliness, ended up coming to a conclusion along the lines of "if it looks like a god, quacks like a god, am I sure it's not a god?"

Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.

They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.

Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?

Makari has always been a sidekick, Ragnar is "the original space wolf hero character"

as Divinevision notes, Ragnar and Ghaz are much the same in that they;re the original "special character" for that army.

Ragnar was originally Russ. The model was literally a sculpt of Russ at one point. The fact that the Ragnar model and Ghaz model were both the OG special character is not much of a similarity between the two.

I would need a source for this as i don't believe it is the case. Ragnar's model was made at the same time as Ulrik and Njal for 2nd edition 40k in 1992 and has 'WOLF LORD' written on his tab (just as Ulrik has WOLF CHAPLAIN and Njal has RUNE PRIEST on theirs). Not 'GREAT WOLF' or 'LEMAN RUSS' (which was written on the Leman Russ Rogue Trader era model) as you would expect if he was ment to be Russ himself.

Regardless i don't see the relevance, the model at it's release was Ragnar and he has always been the Space Wolf Main Character for 40k, the exception to that being Russ in 30k/Rogue Trader.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The Emperor isn't a literal God. That's what the Ecclesiarchy calls him (against his own will) because they're lunatic fanatics. Don't believe the hype. Therefore the Primarchs are not godly either.

Avatars of Gods are perhaps different.

Debatable but regardless call him what you will, The Emperor was powerful enough that the Chaos Gods were frightened of his power and part of that power was passed onto the Primarchs.

BrianDavion wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that, in order to unite the Ork race, Ghaz has to krump all the rival Warlords first. Meaning he has to be the best fighter in a race that is genetically programmed to churn out great fighters. And, as the Prophet of both Gork and Mork, Ghaz should be as brutal as he is kunnin', and as kunnin' as he is brutal.

Besides, imagine if the situation was reversed a bit. What if Makari (who is also a legendary hero, to the Gretchin at least) managed to fight Ragnar to a draw? Would you also be like "well, Ragnar doesn't need to fight well, because his position as Captain is based on his strategic mind and ability to lead, so this is fine."?

Makari has always been a sidekick,

Nope. Makari was a stand-alone character in a short fiction piece in the first ork book, Waargh the Orks in 1990, a year before Andy Chambers makes a joke warboss to lead his Goff sample army for 'Ere We Go.
Makari doesn't show up as Ghaz's standard bearer until the first ork codex in 1994, and is summarily cut for the third edition codex.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Struggling to see why Ghaz "the Beast" and avatar of Gork and Mork is somehow ungodly while Primarch's are?

Because Ghaz is not himself divine. An Avatar of Khaine is literally a shard of the Khaine, the Eldar God of War and Murder. A Bloodthirster is literally a manifistation of Khorne. The Primarchs were literally bred from The God Emperor himself and share his genetics.

Ghaz is an Ork. A very powerful and influential Ork, and blessed by Gork and Mork in the same sense Abbadon is blessed by Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. But he is not himself godly and never will be.

The Primarchs were also quite kill-able (aside from mr. perpetual), and rather than being banished to the Warp or Craftworld only to be resurrected like an Avatar or re-summoned like a Greater Daemon. . . most of them are dead.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, largely agreed. A duel wasn't needed - Ghaz, to me, isn't a duellist. He's a very tough, very powerful Ork, but his strength comes from his tactics. A clash of armies would have been so much better.

After all this time defending the duel, eh?

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.

And Orks aren't?

Edit - I don't think we're going to reach a conclusion here gents. Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting, ironically claiming that 40k shouldn't/doesn't have Saturday morning cartoon level lore while defending the very thing that makes the lore like a Saturday morning cartoon. Truly a conundrum. I don't think we're going to get anywhere here. The argument is becoming circular and repetitive. 'B b b but the God Emperor and his sons!' is a pretty weak argument to pitch against someone who doesn't play Marines and finds much of their recent lore cringeworthy.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.

we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.

we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will

Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.

we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will

Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.

actually it's strongly implied that to make them they where infused with the power of the warp and that they're BASICLY quasi demon princes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.
.

we know the Emperor WASN'T a god, but there's some debate as to weather or not he has effectively ascended as a god of order or not. we, for example see people (like sisters of battle) seemingly channeling his power through their faith. is it the emperor? some strange cruel trick of chaos, is seperate warp entity that is formed from the worship of the emperor but is a distinct entity unto itself etc? GW's not exactly come forward and said what the answer is and likely never will

Well he certainly wasn't a god when he made the Primarchs which is the entire point of this getting raised here because the claim is that 'Primarchs are demigods because the Emperor imbued them with some of his magical god power when he made them'.

actually it's strongly implied that to make them they where infused with the power of the warp and that they're BASICLY quasi demon princes.

Which. Still. Aren't. Demigods.

BrianDavion wrote:

actually it's strongly implied that to make them they where infused with the power of the warp and that they're BASICLY quasi demon princes.

Which are still not the same as a Greater Daemon. Also, Primarchs are very not immortal.

Besides, can we definitely say that Ghaz isn't suffused with the power of Gork and Mork?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The nature of the emperor's divinity or not was something GW's purposefully played coy about.

No they haven't AFAIK. We even know where the Emperor came from now (wasn't he made of a merger/fusion of 10 or so mages?). The 'divine' thing is propaganda and always has been as far as I'm aware. It worries me if people don't get this anymore, because 40k has then become exactly what it was parodying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
They're literally made with Warp stuff. They might not be gods, but they're certainly paracausal beings.

And Orks aren't?

Edit - I don't think we're going to reach a conclusion here gents. Marine players gonna defend a marine Captain beheading the greatest Ork to exist in the current setting, ironically claiming that 40k shouldn't/doesn't have Saturday morning cartoon level lore while defending the very thing that makes the lore like a Saturday morning cartoon. Truly a conundrum. I don't think we're going to get anywhere here. The argument is becoming circular and repetitive. 'B b b but the God Emperor and his sons!' is a pretty weak argument to pitch against someone who doesn't play Marines and finds much of their recent lore cringeworthy.

Agreed, likewise some people are going vehemently declare that ghaz shouldn't lose a fight to someone who isn't a "faction leading character", regardless of their melee prowess nor pedigree in the fluff. Likewise a line of "but they called him the beast!!!" isn't magically enough to make him go around stomping everyone sub primarch level into the dust.

For what it's worth, I'd have been happy with both or either being permanently killed. It would have been nice for them to face once, ragnar get whooped, go back and get his upgrade then round 2 lop of ghazzy's head and die in the process. I'd kinda like it if ghaz then became a futurama-esque head in a jar, leading the ork race from some mech body.

I think it would be good to make a list of Space Marine characters who could beat Ghaz.
Dante - he is 1100 years old! And a total badass.
Mephiston - He is space marine dracula! And conquered the red thirst!
Sanguinor - The avatar of Sanguinious!

Bjorn the Fell Handed - Been alive since the Great Crusade! Actually met the Big E
Logan Grimnir - He is the chapter master of the Wolves, so if Ragnar can do it...
Ragnar Blackmane - as shown here

Marneus Calgar - the dude punched out an Avatar, of course he can take Ghaz. Plus he has been souped up with primaris juice!
Guilliman - Obviously, a Primarch is the most dangerous thing in the setting

Cypher - he has been alive since the Heresy!

Kaldor Draigo - I mean if the guy can slay multiple Greater Daemons, Ghaz should be no problem.

Someone like Helbrecht could probably not beat him in a duel but would definitely win a space batttle against him.

Then of course you have the leader of the Custodes, obviously could take him down too.
After that, I guess most other Chapter Masters and captains would get killed by Ghaz. Pedro Kantor, Lysander, Shrike and so on. Not really tough enough to take Ghaz on alone, they would likely need a small squad of veterans to do it.

And of course Chaos Marines wise, well, most of their heroes could kill Ghaz
Abbadon - Obviously, he has a daemon sword and the talon of Horus!
Kharn - Yeah, he is the chosen of the God of War
Mortarian and Magnus - Daemon Primarch anyone?
Lucius the Eternal - would probably lose, despite being an awesome duelist, but then Ghaz would turn into him.

So like you can see that most Space Marines can kill Ghaz. It is therefore logical that lesser warlords can be killed by lesser chapter masters. Ergo, Orks are not really a threat. If the Imperium of Man did not have so much busy work on, it could wipe out the Orks for sure.