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They don't get drop pods because it's a game design mechanic.

Loyalists need things to shoot at while they march up the field, and Eldar's guns were too good. Allowing Chaos to deep strike would screw up the aesthetic.

mrFickle wrote:
Why don’t CSM have drop pods available?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Legion-Anvillus-Pattern-Dreadclaw-Drop-Pod
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Legion-Kharybdis-Assault-Claw
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Armour-Index-chaos-2017


Why don't sisters have drop pods available?

 Trickstick wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd settle for some volkite chargers for my "terror squads? Phtthhbbtt. We don't need those anymore " Night Lords.

Even Guard get Volkites now, Chaos really should work on their logistics. It is what wins wars.

Where do the Guard get volkite weapons?

Nurglitch wrote:
Where do the Guard get volkite weapons?

The Carnodon can take volkite caliver sponsons and a volkite culverin turret.

Ironically, if GW REALLY wanted to differentiate the factions, they should do what FW did with the hellwright.

As it stands, you can sum up the Warpsmith by saying:
Servo-arms, but slightly different (Mechadendrils) in statline.
Meltagun instead of plasma pistol.
Flamer is flamer.
Axe is axe.
2+ is 2+.
etc.

The Hellwright on the other hand has:
Infernal Axe (more akin to the Omnissian axe than the Power Axe of a techmarine).
Voidcutter (a weird and cool weapon that doesn't have a loyalist analogue)
Soulburner Pistol (a weapon outside the context of the Imperium entirely)
Abeyant (a walking throne-like thingymabopper not seen outside this specific unit entry,)
Warpfire Lance (a strange weapon with a profile and abilities not seen elsewhere)
5+ invuln save unlike any Mechanicus (6+ or 4+) or Space Marine analogue
A unique repair rule that has more options than just <LEGION> or <CHAPTER>
A unique buff for Hellforged units (no Techmarine or Admech HQ gives +1 attack)
etc.

GW needs to stop making the "BALEFIRE HELLTHROWER" which is just an inferno cannon. They need to make the Balefire Hellthrower into something totally unique and unlike anything any Imperial faction has. Perhaps something like "when you roll to hit with this weapon, any hit in excess of the number of models in the unit inflicts a mortal wound" or something, I dunno. Something unheard of in loyalist arsenals, like what they did with the Chaos Hellwright from Forge World.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, if GW REALLY wanted to differentiate the factions, they should do what FW did with the hellwright.

As it stands, you can sum up the Warpsmith by saying:
Servo-arms, but slightly different (Mechadendrils) in statline.
Meltagun instead of plasma pistol.
Flamer is flamer.
Axe is axe.
2+ is 2+.
etc.

The Hellwright on the other hand has:
Infernal Axe (more akin to the Omnissian axe than the Power Axe of a techmarine).
Voidcutter (a weird and cool weapon that doesn't have a loyalist analogue)
Soulburner Pistol (a weapon outside the context of the Imperium entirely)
Abeyant (a walking throne-like thingymabopper not seen outside this specific unit entry,)
Warpfire Lance (a strange weapon with a profile and abilities not seen elsewhere)

GW needs to stop making the "BALEFIRE HELLTHROWER" which is just an inferno cannon. They need to make the Balefire Hellthrower into something totally unique and unlike anything any Imperial faction has. Perhaps something like "when you roll to hit with this weapon, any hit in excess of the number of models in the unit inflicts a mortal wound" or something, I dunno. Something unheard of in loyalist arsenals, like what they did with the Chaos Hellwright from Forge World.

Seconded, really, it's also the reason why i am annoyed at the Terminator and CSM squad sets. ( The csm beyond lacking basic equipment for reasons unknown, get a rocket launcher and a Heavy bolter. You know what weapon CSM are kinda fetishists for? Autocannons. yet we have the same loadout for tacticals vice versa. The terminator sprue is even worse because, HURRAY we finally got chainaxes. Well one Chainaxe, but surely enough fences to put around your garden.)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, if GW REALLY wanted to differentiate the factions, they should do what FW did with the hellwright.

As it stands, you can sum up the Warpsmith by saying:
Servo-arms, but slightly different (Mechadendrils) in statline.
Meltagun instead of plasma pistol.
Flamer is flamer.
Axe is axe.
2+ is 2+.
etc.

The Hellwright on the other hand has:
Infernal Axe (more akin to the Omnissian axe than the Power Axe of a techmarine).
Voidcutter (a weird and cool weapon that doesn't have a loyalist analogue)
Soulburner Pistol (a weapon outside the context of the Imperium entirely)
Abeyant (a walking throne-like thingymabopper not seen outside this specific unit entry,)
Warpfire Lance (a strange weapon with a profile and abilities not seen elsewhere)
5+ invuln save unlike any Mechanicus (6+ or 4+) or Space Marine analogue
A unique repair rule that has more options than just <LEGION> or <CHAPTER>
A unique buff for Hellforged units (no Techmarine or Admech HQ gives +1 attack)
etc.

GW needs to stop making the "BALEFIRE HELLTHROWER" which is just an inferno cannon. They need to make the Balefire Hellthrower into something totally unique and unlike anything any Imperial faction has. Perhaps something like "when you roll to hit with this weapon, any hit in excess of the number of models in the unit inflicts a mortal wound" or something, I dunno. Something unheard of in loyalist arsenals, like what they did with the Chaos Hellwright from Forge World.

Problem is when CSM was first developed they’re we’re just the opposite of the 40k SM line up with fences on their heads. GW has developed 30k as a game and should really be using 30k units as the basis for CSM but with warp corruption etc. they should have access to tech that seems esoteric by 40k standards, but instead primaris have been used to create the difference between the armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
carefull what you wish for.

IF EC get's out you can bet your backside that you are not getting a full roster, like TS and DG.
(not to mention that the CSM roster isn't even complete comparaed to other factions, even if you use FW.)

Interesting what do you consider is missing?

For DG and TS.

Havocs, raptors, basically the mainline special infantry that ALL legions have.
Lord discordants are also, a recent exemple, as are MoP, which there is no reason, beeing not available for them but yet are.

 Trickstick wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd settle for some volkite chargers for my "terror squads? Phtthhbbtt. We don't need those anymore " Night Lords.

Even Guard get Volkites now, Chaos really should work on their logistics. It is what wins wars.

Maybe that is why it took 13 crusades to take Cadia. The quartermaster could never figure out how to place an order for ammunition.

The lack of drop pods for "supply reasons" is utter BS since lots of BL publications have CSM drop in.

Crimson Slaughter were created in 6th edition with Drop pod Assaults as one if their defining characteristics, and yet no actual representation available.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The lack of drop pods for "supply reasons" is utter BS since lots of BL publications have CSM drop in.

Crimson Slaughter were created in 6th edition with Drop pod Assaults as one if their defining characteristics, and yet no actual representation available.

A lot of people point to the fluff as the reason chaos marines are missing so much stuff they logically should have, but I think it's the other way around: GW dragged their feet on giving chaos model representation of their own equivalent to Loyalist stuff, but rather than fixing that they made the lore to justify that lack; giving GW a blank check to give loyalist whatever they think of without having to make a mirrored option. And since that fluff has become tradition, it let that gap widen even though, as you point out, BL also considers that restriction as ridiculous as we do.

Edit: The other argument I'd expect is "Well, you have the Cult stuff/ Daemon Engines", but the daemon engines had the dreadnought problem where getting the most out of all their stats is difficult (outside of the baleflamer haldrake, there was 0% chance a flyer with a turreted, marine melting flamer wasn't going to be amazing) and the cult stuff is centered around infantry units that all focused around delivering str 4 or 5 attacks in different ways with a few special weapons for 3/4 of them until the thousand son codex came out.

mrFickle wrote:
Why don’t CSM have drop pods available?

I don't really know why CSM don't have a non-Forge World drop pod. I suppose GW hasn't got around to it or thinks the FW Dreadclaw is good enough. I suppose there is a whole passel of things they want to release before it. I know I would buy a couple-three as long as they ain't Impulsor priced. Even though I would rather have better Khorne Berserkers or Noise Marines first. Maybe even new Possessed. I figure that GW will eventually get around to it as it is fairly low-hanging fruit to create assuming FW doesn't want to make more resin versions. Until then, I go without. I still think there are plenty of Xeno factions that could use some more attention over Chaos Space Marines, at least model wise. So I am not exactly heartbroken over it. I have a functional army without them, and I am still working on finishing painting the new stuff anyways.

I had brought up a similar question and made my displeasure known for the lack of them. A loyalist player (I forget your name...I am sorry) in turn asked me why I (as a chaos player) wanted one and that he would gladly give up his pods as they are considered "bad" in the current year.

My answer is thus. I think every loyalist player should either own a small force of CSM (500-1000 points) or borrow an army for a day. You will understand why we bitch so much. And one of the major complaints about all the CSM factions is that we are supposed to be a assault heavy/ Mid range firepower version of the loyalists.

BUT....we have two ways of getting our units to the desired range. Walking or Rhinos. I do not include FW because it is still banned at a few shops. When or if you play a CSM army the first thing you will notice is the criminal slowness of the army.

This is shown best in our Priests vs loyalist chaplins. Now litanies and the ilk are pretty solid atm, and can make or break an assault. For chaos to make use of it you have slow down your assault to WALKING speed (or put him in Rhino) and awkwardly follow your possessed bombs and Zerker stars. While every single loyalist Chaplin comes with a jump pack. You have no idea how much, as a CSM player, I want a simple jump pack. You can have our +1 to chant.

Its the basics we are missing. And it is THE primary thing holding the faction back in comp games. THAT is why we want stock codex drop pods. The fact that Loyalist players think of them as "bad" shows how spoiled they are (spoiled in games rule terms, not personal terms). The legions use them, renegades should have just as many as when they turned.

But why not use dreadclaws and Khards. Well, FW is one reason. The second is that the delivery method will cost as many points as why you are trying to drop in. Both need a HUGE point drop (which they will never get...because FW). Not to mention that I dont need or want the extra rules that using one brings. I just want to drop my dudes in. I dont want the pod to fly off and stick its blades into some poor sods bum while getting charged 300+ points for the pleasure.

Do not even get me started on how bad of a trade off Demon Engines are for loyalist tech. Thats a whole novel.

Edit : Its not that we want what loyalists have. But we want the very basics we SHOULD have and dont. Non sucking demon engines would be grand as well :O. Besides the Discolord. Hes pretty solid.

You mean to say that you don't love having voracious living engines of pure destruction that have WS/BS 4+ as standard?

Table wrote:
...BUT....we have two ways of getting our units to the desired range. Walking or Rhinos. I do not include FW because it is still banned at a few shops. When or if you play a CSM army the first thing you will notice is the criminal slowness of the army...

Land Raiders? Raptors? Bikes? Terminator Deep Strike? Alpha Legion stratagems?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Table wrote:
...BUT....we have two ways of getting our units to the desired range. Walking or Rhinos. I do not include FW because it is still banned at a few shops. When or if you play a CSM army the first thing you will notice is the criminal slowness of the army...

Land Raiders?

Less and lesser versions of it through all the editions. heck even had no machine spirit for a great many editions. Also no longer an assault tank so therefore useless.

Raptors?

The bad out of two abismal assault infantry choices. Oh also, the issue is not the raptors in regards to mobility but the fact that all off the new Charachters, beeing melee beatsticks or close range buffers, can't keep up. F.e. Master of executions never seen, why? because he is to slow and has no option to use a transport to decent use, like 95% off all other armies. Except of course the new primaris which get a transport one can get out off after it moving.
Ignoring core rules and limits other factions have. Just like the new droppod rules, ignoring the T1 deepstrike and deepstrike limits for points.

Also ignoring core mechanics is something that we allready have seen with the most broken stuff off editions past. Fun times right?

Bikes?

Chaos bikers are meh, at best and like with the same issue as above, have not the HQ support required or mobile enough to actually work.

Terminator Deep Strike?

Oh, terminators, which had a brief period in the sun, because off the NErfprovement of the nuwblits. now that oblits are once again priced decently how many do you see of them? Also comparatively to regular Termites they are actively underwhelming f you don't invest massively into them and need HQ support, which you can only provide again 2 two out off 5 buff givers off which one can be flat out denied by some enemies.

Alpha Legion stratagems?

1 pregame stratagem, that got nerfed since the codex, another one only available for 1 unit and stops working after T3 kills off any reserves after that. Not to mention, out of personal experience running an army optimized for AL movement shenaningans, the ammount of CP used severly cuts down overall effectiveness off an allready CP hungry and in most cases sans stratagems underperforming army. Because how dare you have peforming units if you can just stack x, y, z 1, 2,3 on a unit to bring that limit virtually up to the sky for about just 500 pts worth of cp and charachters.


Also further, the whole arsenal of chaos marines is lacking key units and can not substitute them significantly:

F.e. Artillery: non existent, FW only , at that meh, substitutable by R&H you may point out? Let me start laughing as a R&H player. Which is endlessly funny considering THE siege specialst legion has turned to chaos. Infact why not just enlarge a Havoc launcher into a greater one on a laffette? not happened, like most of the more ancient and special equipment the variety it introduces is marginal at best and the access to those diverging equipment options beyond them often beeing at best meh is limited to the point that it makes no sense.

Sniperrifles? well kinda sorta if you waste one off your warlord traits, which CSM have very low options to get a hold off and need for other options to work. Again you may point to R&H, this time i don't laugh, but frankly the setup to get access to them, is highly limited, and the impact of at most 6 sniperrifles is mostly negliable.

But daemonengines you may say, to which i reply, if they'd actually work. See the lord discordants +1 to hit aura is a step in the right direction, except it is on the lord discordant instead of the warpsmith, because god forbid a dakkafiend actually would hit something. Even funnier, half the arsenal on the daemonengines would actually be great if it would be capable of actually you know, NOT BEEING STUCK ON A DAEMONENGINE FOR NO REASON:
F.e. the Hades AC. basically is a butcher AC, except the butcher is more expensive by 25% yet still the butcher is more used, because it is not stuck on NON HITTING DAEMONENGINES. (exception to the decimator which is decent preciscly because it's the only Daemonengine with base BS 3+.

Imagine having had a reworked Predator kit with the Hades as a turret option and sponson option.

Table wrote:
My answer is thus. I think every loyalist player should either own a small force of CSM (500-1000 points) or borrow an army for a day. You will understand why we bitch so much.

It's not all the same bitching. You say assault heavy/medium ranged, other players want the Iron Warriors mega gunline, or renegade guard, or dark mechanicum, heresy weapons, cheap chaff, powerful veterans, psychic domination, possession, mass infiltration, daemonic primarchs, and a book for every flavour.

IMHO it's just a continuation of GW marine obsession creating high expectation. CSM have the second most stuff in the game, a mile ahead of some factions, but it's a game of !moar units! rather than everyone having a similarly sized/limited selection that characterises their faction with strengths and weaknesses.

A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
My answer is thus. I think every loyalist player should either own a small force of CSM (500-1000 points) or borrow an army for a day. You will understand why we bitch so much.

It's not all the same bitching. You say assault heavy/medium ranged, other players want the Iron Warriors mega gunline, or renegade guard, or dark mechanicum, heresy weapons, cheap chaff, powerful veterans, psychic domination, possession, mass infiltration, daemonic primarchs, and a book for every flavour.

IMHO it's just a continuation of GW marine obsession creating high expectation. CSM have the second most stuff in the game, a mile ahead of some factions, but it's a game of !moar units! rather than everyone having a similarly sized/limited selection that characterises their faction with strengths and weaknesses.

CSM should have more range than SM as all their stuff is 30k plus what they’ve accumulated along the way to 40k plus what the warp has granted them. 40k marine chapters are supposed to be largely carbon copy thanks to the codex and 10k years of stagnation.

Plus the 40k universe needs an enemy bigger than the imperium otherwise the narrative just feels like the imperium is just playing border patrol

A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
My answer is thus. I think every loyalist player should either own a small force of CSM (500-1000 points) or borrow an army for a day. You will understand why we bitch so much.

It's not all the same bitching. You say assault heavy/medium ranged, other players want the Iron Warriors mega gunline, or renegade guard, or dark mechanicum, heresy weapons, cheap chaff, powerful veterans, psychic domination, possession, mass infiltration, daemonic primarchs, and a book for every flavour.

IMHO it's just a continuation of GW marine obsession creating high expectation. CSM have the second most stuff in the game, a mile ahead of some factions, but it's a game of !moar units! rather than everyone having a similarly sized/limited selection that characterises their faction with strengths and weaknesses.

Except thats not what my post is saying at all. I never said that chaos had nothing good. I said that A) We should have drop pods because of lore and because we need more non FW transports and B) Loyalist players should play CSM for a day to understand my points. No one is asking for primaris and repulsors or your 5 land raider variants. We are asking for a non 300 point FW model that can improve how our army is supposed to play. Demon engines are terrible at bs4. They have been for many many years. I doubt it will change. There are two decent engines. Thats it. Helturkeys used to be great, but at 140 points and a 1d6 flamer and weak attacks you dont see many new kits flying off the shelves as most are models from its heyday that people are finding uses for. But ill address each of your points.

IW mega gun lines? What edition are you playing? I hope there is some army comp im missing from ITC because a IW gunline is pretty terrible when the majority of your guns are either 24 inch rapid fire bolters and las cannons.
Renegade Guard? Err, I wish that were a thing. But its FW only and the rules are great if you want to play IG but twice as bad. Cool models tho.
Dark Mech? Yes please. Sadly no such faction exists outside of lore.
Heresy Weapons? FW, and loyalists get more/better ones.
Cheap chaff? Maybe but cultists have been HEAVILY nerfed in 8th. Loyalists have IG, which are better chaff.
Psychic Domination? Ok I agree on this one, if you happen to play 1ksons.
Powerful Veterans? You mean chosen? A worse version of loyalist vets. Or perhaps you were talking about our stratagem.
Possession? A unit that has been trash for over a decade finally has uses? I guess I agree with you, sorta.
Demon Primarchs? Sure. And they are cool. But you dont see them in comp play because they die to easily. At least Magnus does. I still like using him. So mostly agreed.
A book for every flavor? I think you have us confused with adeptus astartes. We have 3 codex (4 if you count terrible demons). True, thats two more than alot of factions so I guess I half agree.

But none of this matters. Because we are asking for drop pods, Something we have in lore. Something the army needs. Its not about different factions different toys.

And none of this matters. Because what we will get is more character options we cant use because they walk or go in a Rhino and another two demon engines no one takes because they cant hit.

Table wrote:
Except thats not what my post is saying at all / No one is asking for primaris and repulsors or your 5 land raider variants.

I know - the point I was trying to get across is that when it comes to chaos players wanting stuff it is a very broad set of asks. That includes chaos primaris variant landraiders - it ebbs and flows with the editions.

Table wrote:
I never said that chaos had nothing good.

It seems the trend that if you name any chaos unit/ability/etc the reply will be to compare it unfavourably with space marines in some way. I refer you to the rest of your post, and the post made before mine.

With the new forgeworld books on the way perhaps things will change. Until then why not pick up/borrow a minor faction army like sisters, admech, or genestealer cults - comparing yourself to the bloaded loyalist line makes everyone look second best.

A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
Except thats not what my post is saying at all / No one is asking for primaris and repulsors or your 5 land raider variants.

I know - the point I was trying to get across is that when it comes to chaos players wanting stuff it is a very broad set of asks. That includes chaos primaris variant landraiders - it ebbs and flows with the editions.

Table wrote:
I never said that chaos had nothing good.

It seems the trend that if you name any chaos unit/ability/etc the reply will be to compare it unfavourably with space marines in some way. I refer you to the rest of your post, and the post made before mine.

Excuse me for wanting a functional ruleset for AN ARMY THAT EXISTED IN SOME CAPACITY SINCE LATE 3RD.
Also the key issue is, that CSM are in essence just a less option copy off SM, exceptional units often also do not work good enough or the armament has just never been actually made into differing enough point to be relevant, beyond dinobot renegades.

With the new forgeworld books on the way perhaps things will change. Until then why not pick up/borrow a minor faction army like sisters, admech, or genestealer cults - comparing yourself to the bloaded loyalist line makes everyone look second best.

I and many other R&H players, have started substituting pretty much since the start of 8th, using either guard or GSC to get some of the capacity back that is now non existant. So we in essence allready picked up minor other factions, further most of these have allready multiple armies anyways.

A.T. wrote:

Table wrote:
Except thats not what my post is saying at all / No one is asking for primaris and repulsors or your 5 land raider variants.

I know - the point I was trying to get across is that when it comes to chaos players wanting stuff it is a very broad set of asks. That includes chaos primaris variant landraiders - it ebbs and flows with the editions.

Table wrote:
I never said that chaos had nothing good.

It seems the trend that if you name any chaos unit/ability/etc the reply will be to compare it unfavourably with space marines in some way. I refer you to the rest of your post, and the post made before mine.

With the new forgeworld books on the way perhaps things will change. Until then why not pick up/borrow a minor faction army like sisters, admech, or genestealer cults - comparing yourself to the bloaded loyalist line makes everyone look second best.

Its a broad set of asks because there are so many holes in our army that need filling. I get it, no one likes to hear someone complain. Also, no one likes to feel guilty for having better things. And that is fine, I agree. But when I make a statement that we need drop pods and back that statement up with facts only to have a marine player ask me why I want to take what he considers "trash", then I am going to answer.

The entire point is that we should not have to take forgeworld units simply because GW refuses to fix our glaring issues. FW is still not accepted in a good number of shops and by a decent number of players. I have to use two lists of every army I make, one that is FW and one that isnt. Guess which list is more powerful and lets me play the army the way it should be played. It isnt the codex list. I dont care if FW makes CSM better. Its not what we need. We do not need another demon engine. We do not need another master of execution. Further more, when we do get new models often times they come with hefty nerfs. Look at Havocs. Almost unplayable because we can no longer take 10 of them. That leaves the squad with no ablative wounds. And considering the cheapest Havoc is going to run you 20+ points, you can not afford to lose them. I have wanted a new havoc kit for YEARS. Now that I get one I cant use it outside of narrative games with any chance of not hindering myself. Oblits got new models, and a insane price hike which lead to most people leaving them out of their lists at the time.

This is what it is like to be a CSM player. Always left wanting and when we do get, it comes with a red right hand. And yes, I understand other factions feel our pain. Chaos is not alone in this. But I can say that no other in the game requires forgeworld as much as we do. As someone stated earlier (perhaps even you) that it is why CSM players freak out when people propose FW bans. I wish GW would lay off the marine crack and spend a year filling out the other factions. But that will lead to a decrease in sales, which is a big no no. So we are left to complain and beg for scraps. A chaos player should understand his position in the game. And many do. But it should not and does not stop us from commenting on it and hoping for something better.

Table wrote:
. Look at Havocs. Almost unplayable because we can no longer take 10 of them. That leaves the squad with no ablative wounds. And considering the cheapest Havoc is going to run you 20+ points, you can not afford to lose them. I have wanted a new havoc kit for YEARS.

I would be okayish with 10 man squads of Havocs even if marines 5-10 had to be heavy bolters. Still throwing good points after bad, but at least the good weapons have a bit more protection. Besides, I do still like heavy bolters.

If hey had given them 2 wounds to match their massive new size, it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Table wrote:
. Look at Havocs. Almost unplayable because we can no longer take 10 of them. That leaves the squad with no ablative wounds. And considering the cheapest Havoc is going to run you 20+ points, you can not afford to lose them. I have wanted a new havoc kit for YEARS.

I would be okayish with 10 man squads of Havocs even if marines 5-10 had to be heavy bolters. Still throwing good points after bad, but at least the good weapons have a bit more protection. Besides, I do still like heavy bolters.

The issue is they're priced like the basic Bolter bitch exists to catch wounds and THEN they have to buy the weapon. If they were 10 points or so before the mandatory weapons, they suddenly make more sense.

That said, the unit identity being different than "we're Devastators but eeeeeeeeevil" is a good thing for the unit. The execution is what GW botched, as usual.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Table wrote:
. Look at Havocs. Almost unplayable because we can no longer take 10 of them. That leaves the squad with no ablative wounds. And considering the cheapest Havoc is going to run you 20+ points, you can not afford to lose them. I have wanted a new havoc kit for YEARS.

I would be okayish with 10 man squads of Havocs even if marines 5-10 had to be heavy bolters. Still throwing good points after bad, but at least the good weapons have a bit more protection. Besides, I do still like heavy bolters.

The issue is they're priced like the basic Bolter bitch exists to catch wounds and THEN they have to buy the weapon. If they were 10 points or so before the mandatory weapons, they suddenly make more sense.

That said, the unit identity being different than "we're Devastators but eeeeeeeeevil" is a good thing for the unit. The execution is what GW botched, as usual.

What is interesting is GW it self pays for the incompetence. A model release that should have sold out remained on the shelves. I get that no one at the design studio plays chaos. But for the good of GW and its sales, they really need a better project manager that could have prevented the bonkers ruling that hurt the sales of the unit. IF they had come in 10 man squads of old *only 4 having heavy weapons* then people would be buying and running them. Since my recent return to the hobby ive had four games vs chaos players. None of them used havocs, and those were "casual" players. When a ruling stinks so badly that a "casual" wont touch it, you know you f'd up.The models themselves were great.

That reaper chaingun looks great. Too bad people don't use them.

Table wrote:
A chaos player should understand his position in the game

The second best supported faction, with the second largest line.

I guess i'm a little jaded from reading so many of these threads that inevitably stray from "we need this" to "ok we have it but it needs to be more powerful/easier to take or we don't actually need it but they have it so we should too"

Table wrote:
But when I make a statement that we need drop pods...

But do you need it? Sure being able to put your models in prime position cheaply on turn one is a big advantage from the perspective of being able to win all your games, but it's not as if chaos is the odd one out here. Nobody else gets to do it either (except marines obviously, and possibly chaos after the FW update), and that includes even shorter ranged armies than chaos.

As for havoks, i'm surprised it took someone this long to suggest making them as cheap as sisters.

Shouldn't they just be devastator clones, but with chaos dotrines instead of loyalist? I always thought a lot of basic Chaos stff should be quite similar, but with a different feel via extra rules.

 Trickstick wrote:
Shouldn't they just be devastator clones, but with chaos dotrines instead of loyalist?

They used to be. Pretty much everyone ran them in 5 man squads back then too.