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Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.

Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model

 Billagio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.

Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model

Oh yeah don't get me wrong model wise he's amazing design. When it comes to rules he's the epitome of terrible design.
1. He does not benefit from his own Advance + Charge aura compared to all other Warboss variants
2. He only gives extra attacks to Orks on the charge. Orks don't NEED more attacks, they already have a lot. That's like if GW decided to create a Character that gave Berserker Marines extra attacks: yeah they would like it but they absolutely don't need it
3. The gun is lame, as it doesn't do anything amazing. They could've made it S6 D2 and nobody would care, as at least he would wound GEQ on a 2+ and kill Primaris in one shot. Either that or they could've made it 20 shots

I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.

Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model

Oh yeah don't get me wrong model wise he's amazing design. When it comes to rules he's the epitome of terrible design.
1. He does not benefit from his own Advance + Charge aura compared to all other Warboss variants
2. He only gives extra attacks to Orks on the charge. Orks don't NEED more attacks, they already have a lot. That's like if GW decided to create a Character that gave Berserker Marines extra attacks: yeah they would like it but they absolutely don't need it
3. The gun is lame, as it doesn't do anything amazing. They could've made it S6 D2 and nobody would care, as at least he would wound GEQ on a 2+ and kill Primaris in one shot. Either that or they could've made it 20 shots

I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.

Well at least that means they know they wrote crap rules for him and theres hope theyll at least FAQ the aura

Roberts84 wrote:
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.

40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.

But seriously, people. Get a grip.

Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.

This post made my day.

People play MTG and Yugioh (yes I played Yugioh competitively many years ago) competitively and that's very random too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.

It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.

Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.

40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.

But seriously, people. Get a grip.

Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.

This post made my day.

Yeah, I think this is the closest we'll ever have him admit defeat. The best part is that even here he's still wrong about so many of the things he's talking about.

I'd happily trade in the 4 wounds per phase rule to drop Ghaz to 9 wounds so he can get character protection.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'd happily trade in the 4 wounds per phase rule to drop Ghaz to 9 wounds so he can get character protection.

Or let him benefit from his own aura like any other HQ does.

I legit can't think of an HQ unit that doesn't benefit themselves with the main aura/ability.

 Billagio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.

Well at least that means they know they wrote crap rules for him and theres hope theyll at least FAQ the aura

I don’t think the people that delete facebook posts are the same people that write or errata rules. Games Workshop isn’t exactly a hive mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But then again the goff warlord trait did get changed after community uproar, perhaps there is a little waaagh of hope at the end of the tunnel.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'd happily trade in the 4 wounds per phase rule to drop Ghaz to 9 wounds so he can get character protection.

Or let him benefit from his own aura like any other HQ does.

I legit can't think of an HQ unit that doesn't benefit themselves with the main aura/ability.

Catacomb Command Barge cannot buff itself. It's not a huge problem, you were never going to use MWBD on an Overlord anyway. For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks. If Ghaz was OP and slotted super well into any list he'd be everywhere, I'm sure I'll get to play him at least in a casual game at some point and I can enjoy the model without freaking out over the 120 pt character that should have been more than 200 pts. Ghaz is fine, he'll be fun to use because he doesn't go down too easily and he can punch things really hard if he does get in, even if he doesn't he'll cause enough fear that he'll probably be fun to use.

@ Daedalus: Jepp, I forgot the bonus from being a Goff. Also as JNA corrected, it's more like 2-3 Bullgryns. Still, it is a unit that can very well hold their own against him. And it's a very constructed situation that Ghazz encounters an Astra Militarum force with Bullgryns that does not also shoot him in the shooting phase or has some cheap Psykers with them dropping Smites.

Another thing I realized yesterday just to put his melee prowess into perspective: lets let him attack any Guard Superheavy (Gorgon Transport, CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT, any Baneblade) with four heavy flamers only ever firing those at him. The Superheavy has the Custom Regiment traits "gunnery experts" (so ~17 average hits with the 4 twin flamers) and "Monster Hunters" (1 MW on a 6 to wound), Lets also assume that Ghazz makes every Charge he can make.

1st turn: Ghazz shoots, making 0.889 damage and then charges. He eats 1.833 damage from overwatch + 16,5/6 = 2.75 MW => he is at 8 wounds.
He attacks in CC doing 5 x35/36x2/3x4 = 13 damage, we ignore the CC damage of the superheavy in CC
2nd turn: the Superheavy falls back 1'' and flames him again for further 4 wounds
3rd turn: Ghazzy shoots again (0.889 damage) and charges only to get killed in Overwatch.

Note that while the Custom Regiment trait I gave this superheavy was quite optimized to fight Ghaz, the circumstances were vastly in his favor. He did not get shot at before making the charge, the Superheavy did only fire its flamers (and a Baneblade could have twice as much) at him and was free to use the rest of the weapons to kill Ghaz army and it also fell back only 1'' to guarantee Ghazz his Charge.



Another even worse example:
1 Hellhound with hull flamer with the same Regiment trait combination, but this time it gets to Ghazzy in the IG turn, so can fire once:
it gets 12.75 hits, doing 1.4 damage + 2 Mortals
He charges and gets another 3.4 damage
He kills the Hellhound which explodes half of the time for D3 mortals, so on average 1 Mortal wound.
=> a 107 points unit just brought him down to average 4.2 wounds just in their own shooting and his fight phase. And that was without Psykers, and other shenanigans.

Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Daedalus: Jepp, I forgot the bonus from being a Goff. Also as JNA corrected, it's more like 2-3 Bullgryns. Still, it is a unit that can very well hold their own against him. And it's a very constructed situation that Ghazz encounters an Astra Militarum force with Bullgryns that does not also shoot him in the shooting phase or has some cheap Psykers with them dropping Smites.

Another thing I realized yesterday just to put his melee prowess into perspective: lets let him attack any Guard Superheavy (Gorgon Transport, CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT, any Baneblade) with four heavy flamers only ever firing those at him. The Superheavy has the Custom Regiment traits "gunnery experts" (so ~17 average hits with the 4 twin flamers) and "Monster Hunters" (1 MW on a 6 to wound), Lets also assume that Ghazz makes every Charge he can make.

1st turn: Ghazz shoots, making 0.889 damage and then charges. He eats 1.833 damage from overwatch + 16,5/6 = 2.75 MW => he is at 8 wounds.
He attacks in CC doing 5 x35/36x2/3x4 = 13 damage, we ignore the CC damage of the superheavy in CC
2nd turn: the Superheavy falls back 1'' and flames him again for further 4 wounds
3rd turn: Ghazzy shoots again (0.889 damage) and charges only to get killed in Overwatch.

Note that while the Custom Regiment trait I gave this superheavy was quite optimized to fight Ghaz, the circumstances were vastly in his favor. He did not get shot at before making the charge, the Superheavy did only fire its flamers (and a Baneblade could have twice as much) at him and was free to use the rest of the weapons to kill Ghaz army and it also fell back only 1'' to guarantee Ghazz his Charge.



Another even worse example:
1 Hellhound with hull flamer with the same Regiment trait combination, but this time it gets to Ghazzy in the IG turn, so can fire once:
it gets 12.75 hits, doing 1.4 damage + 2 Mortals
He charges and gets another 3.4 damage
He kills the Hellhound which explodes half of the time for D3 mortals, so on average 1 Mortal wound.
=> a 107 points unit just brought him down to average 4.2 wounds just in their own shooting and his fight phase. And that was without Psykers, and other shenanigans.

Flamers are range 8, making an 8,5" charge with 2d6 re-rolling either or both dice is way over 50%.

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

Possessed, Bloodletters, Plague Bearers, Genestealers, ... I guess it's obvious where this is going. Unlike Mortarion, Magnus, Abaddon or even a Gorkanaut, he doesn't have any built-in protection against horde units.
As long as the unit has some AP and at least medicore leadership, they'll grind him down over three fight phases. Bonus points if you have pistols which manage to deal 4 damage to him.

 vict0988 wrote:
For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks.

New Thrakka moves 7/6/5" and has 5/6/7 Attacks für 235
Old Thrakka moved 5" and had 5 attacks +1 when charging and could advance and charge 285

He was considered overcosted before and now got 50 points more expensive while losing access to most stratagems and buffs. IMO old Thrakka was better.

@ Vict

Flamers are range 8, making an 8,5" charge with 2d6 re-rolling either or both dice is way over 50%.

Ok, fair point. I would still claim that the example is pretty clear, isn't it?

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks.

New Thrakka moves 7/6/5" and has 5/6/7 Attacks für 235
Old Thrakka moved 5" and had 5 attacks +1 when charging and could advance and charge 285

He was considered overcosted before and now got 50 points more expensive while losing access to most stratagems and buffs. IMO old Thrakka was better.

He should probably be 9" like I thought he was then.

Oh, I don't think anyone would be complaining if he was 9" - that's a very good chance at charging in T2 even with advancing just once.
7" means that walking up the board take 3 turns though, which incidentally is exactly as long as it takes to shoot him off the board.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ghaz, as I see it, runs two ways.

Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.

Unfortunately Dae, you don't know what you're talking about in this regard. You thought he could fight twice and you seem to be adding an attack to him for some reason, you don't know Orks well enough.

He isn't a good unit, unfortunately.

Roberts84 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?

You don't have to beat him.

Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.

If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.

Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.

...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.

Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.

A naut doesn't have a wound cap however. Again, Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase. That's what makes him a melee monster, not simply his damage output. I'm yet to hear anyone explain how he isn't going to cause havoc to castles.

I'll again reiterate the idea that challenging the status quo, and making castles less viable would make this good game design, not bad.

Castles shouldn't exist in the first place.
All the auras that turn marines or CSM into basically over armored Lineinfantry shooting at each other is bad.
Ghaz is equally as bad even if he counters that supposedly ( he doesn't that's besides the point though)

Ghaz is one of the few things that can last a combat phase with the Wulfen even Titanics struggle with that.

That said just like the Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry so many things can stop him so easily and survive doing it. Unless you go to him Ghaz isn’t going to be in combat before turn two and turn three or even four if you've actively avoided him, that's five potentially damaging phases for most armies and four for specialists.
Ghaz is only threatening if the other 1650 points of Orks are threatening in their own right.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Ghaz is only threatening if the other 1650 points of Orks are threatening in their own right.

I don't see him being more threatening that than 350 simply spent on something else though. For 350 you can have 10 evil suns MANz who have 75%+ chance to make their charges, access to the full array of stratagems and even a new one increasing their damage by one.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat

I don't know if that's a useful question. This isn't a pit fight. It's a battle.

However...

Archons are known to be able to punch well above their weight class when they're lucky with their Shadowfield. Of course, you can't rely on "being lucky". How good is Gazh at dishing out mortal wounds?

.

I play orks and dark eldar. There is no way an Archon is beating him in cc, no matter how he is kitted out. If this isn't a put fight then why have any big hard hitting monsters. Everyone is arguing that Ghaz is trash and I am arguing that he is potentially the best CC unit in the game. Apart from Magnus I am not sure what other 1 unit is beating him

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the "max. damage per phase" mechanic is gonna see more play in the future, perhaps as soon as the good/evil-Knights and Daemons Psychic Awakening.

if we were to see a Knight strat or a Bloodthirster WL trait or some kustom job / adaptive biology-style unit upgrades or something along those lines that provide similar buffs, it'll change the dynamics.

Traditionally, GW has rolled new mechanics out in batches for a month or three when they created new ones (or ported them from AoS like this one).

No deepstrike within 12" was a cute, novel little thing in the GSC Codex in February last year ... soon after half the new Marine stuff had the same rule, then Alpha Legion, Tau, etc..

I doubt this rule stays unique to Ghaz for long.

 Billagio wrote:
Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model

I haven't even played 40K in years and I'll probably get one, it really is a great model.

Ork players not recognising a good unit again. Haven’t we done this a thousand times?

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ork players not recognising a good unit again. Haven’t we done this a thousand times?

i don’t think that is what is happening in this instance.

Despite clearly being a fearsome fighter, Ghazghkull’s renown comes not from his reputation as a fighter, but from his reputation as a leader of orks. I suspect many ork players are a little disappointed because although he can command a charge like a speedboss (but not from the front as he doesn’t self aura...) and he will normally get to see at least a round or two of combat (clunky as the mechanic allowing that may be) he doesn’t actually improve orks in a way that marks him out as a better leader than any other boss.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Ork players not recognising a good unit again. Haven’t we done this a thousand times?

Please remind me of the last time this has happened.

And then count those times against the times where marine players cried OP on some worthless unit.

On the strictly limited wounds?

Given he can be targeted in a way most characters can’t, and he’s an army lynchpin? I’m fine with it.