Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.

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**WhiteDog**

Jidmah wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular).
If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSM CC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.

I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.

Since you seem to be genuinely interested in this, my personal analysis of Thrakka in more detail:
I agree with you that a 4 wound cap would be very valuable on a high threat unit. Dealing 4 damage can happen really quickly if a high AP weapon rolls well, but might take long if you have to rely on rank&file guns. Having something like an executioner or doomsday ark shoot at him and lose lots of damage to overkill is a big win, too.
His value against an army unable to deal damage through shooting can pretty much be ignored - orks bring along a minimum of 60+ expendable troops models, which can just act as a wall against any assault strategy while you shoot them off the board. He doesn't really help our own assault strategies either, most other assault armies are faster than orks and thus usually get the charge on them - meaning they strike first and kill boyz in droves, not only denying the extra attack from his Waaagh!, but also reducing the value of the goff kulture trait his new re-roll aura. If you are running Goff and Thrakka already, Makari is actually a great addition, but that's a pair of huge "if"s. Also note that despite having Makari, you still need a goff pain boy for the squig combo.
Thrakka, the goff culture, skarboyz and the waaagh! banner are all solutions to a problem orks don't have: hitting hard enough in combat.

The reason why a daemon prince is a melee powerhouse is not because he can hit hard, has many attacks or can cast powers. The one reason why he is a powerhouse is because he is a character and simply cannot be shot. The other, more important one, is that he moves 12" and can FLY. When was the last time you have seen a daemon prince or hive tyrant without wings? A warboss without a bike? A smash captain without jump pack?
One of the truths of 8th edition is that there is one condition every assault unit fulfill, and that is being able to get into combat with a valuable target without dying first. Every unit which doesn't fulfill this condition is automatically doomed to be inefficient, as it cannot possibly return its investment because it either dies halfway there, or gets stuck in combat with a unit it either spends killing multiple turns, gets fed cheap, expendable units or the enemy simply moves away from them.
When you look at all the successful assault units in this edition, all of them either extremely fast (disco lords, swarmlord, shining spears, storm boyz) or have highly reliable deep strike charges (boyz, blood letters, centurions).
Only very few exceptions rely on insane durability, like bullgryns or plague bearers - and I really don't think that "only 4 wounds per phase" fits into that category.

The new Ghazghkull Thrakka has two options to get into combat. One is moving up the board 7"+d6 turn one and then move another 7" - barely getting into your enemy's deployment zone with an average charge. Unless he is going for "board control", there is either nothing to charge, or something he wants you to charge. So, in order to find good target this way, you are looking at a turn 3 charge - plenty of time to kill him or whittle him down so he can be killed in in combat.
The other options is tellyporting him in. A charge from deepstrike with 'ere we go has a chance of roughly 55% to succeed, which means that in half your games you have him sitting right in front of your opponent's army where they can try to kill, tarpit or kite him at will.
So in the end, the question of what can win a fight against Thrakka is pretty irrelevant, as he is unable to pick his fights. There are units which can defeat him in combat, there are units which can tarpit him for multiple rounds of combat and there are plenty of units which just slow him down for a turn while he gets shot down.
In this regard he also compares badly to many other options orks already have, because those can either join the Evil Suns clan and/or use the ramming speed stratagem for vastly improved odds of making their charges from deep strike, or are fast enough to just cross the board and charge in one turn.

Last, but not least, there is his gigantic point costs. Let's assume he did actually overcome all those hurdles - he still has some wounds left, he didn't get bogged down by chaff and managed to succeed his charge roll. He is now in the middle of some poor sod's Space Wolve army and then kills a unit for three turns in a row until he finally gets put down, the game ends or he is out of stuff to kill. He then still needs to kill 95 points per battleround to justify his point costs. Even if he manages to snag and destroy three eite infantry units, there is no guarantee that they cost that much. A warboss has almost made his points back the second he kills his first unit.

I agree with the assessment that points can be fixed, but without the ability to charge and advance, reliably charge from deep strikes, use transports or have some other way to cross the board faster, neither his costs nor his damage output really matter a whole lot.

I agree with everything you wrote, Ghaz needs something to make it into a top tier unit - advance and charge rules, or a change to his tag from monster to infantry (so that he can go into trukk / can be healed by painboyz).
And that's fine. He still is not trash tier and his wouding rule makes him interesting in many ways.

**Not Online!!!**

Billagio wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly if Ghaz would've been W 9 then the tune would change allready alot.

Well yeah, then he wouldnt need the 4 damage a turn thing and this would all be moot

Lol he even could have that on top for all i'd care, he still is largely dead weight at his pricepoint, but instead of an anchor with a nose around your lists proverbial neck it's instead just a medium stone.

**Slayer-Fan123**

WhiteDog wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular).
If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSM CC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.

I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.

Since you seem to be genuinely interested in this, my personal analysis of Thrakka in more detail:
I agree with you that a 4 wound cap would be very valuable on a high threat unit. Dealing 4 damage can happen really quickly if a high AP weapon rolls well, but might take long if you have to rely on rank&file guns. Having something like an executioner or doomsday ark shoot at him and lose lots of damage to overkill is a big win, too.
His value against an army unable to deal damage through shooting can pretty much be ignored - orks bring along a minimum of 60+ expendable troops models, which can just act as a wall against any assault strategy while you shoot them off the board. He doesn't really help our own assault strategies either, most other assault armies are faster than orks and thus usually get the charge on them - meaning they strike first and kill boyz in droves, not only denying the extra attack from his Waaagh!, but also reducing the value of the goff kulture trait his new re-roll aura. If you are running Goff and Thrakka already, Makari is actually a great addition, but that's a pair of huge "if"s. Also note that despite having Makari, you still need a goff pain boy for the squig combo.
Thrakka, the goff culture, skarboyz and the waaagh! banner are all solutions to a problem orks don't have: hitting hard enough in combat.

The reason why a daemon prince is a melee powerhouse is not because he can hit hard, has many attacks or can cast powers. The one reason why he is a powerhouse is because he is a character and simply cannot be shot. The other, more important one, is that he moves 12" and can FLY. When was the last time you have seen a daemon prince or hive tyrant without wings? A warboss without a bike? A smash captain without jump pack?
One of the truths of 8th edition is that there is one condition every assault unit fulfill, and that is being able to get into combat with a valuable target without dying first. Every unit which doesn't fulfill this condition is automatically doomed to be inefficient, as it cannot possibly return its investment because it either dies halfway there, or gets stuck in combat with a unit it either spends killing multiple turns, gets fed cheap, expendable units or the enemy simply moves away from them.
When you look at all the successful assault units in this edition, all of them either extremely fast (disco lords, swarmlord, shining spears, storm boyz) or have highly reliable deep strike charges (boyz, blood letters, centurions).
Only very few exceptions rely on insane durability, like bullgryns or plague bearers - and I really don't think that "only 4 wounds per phase" fits into that category.

The new Ghazghkull Thrakka has two options to get into combat. One is moving up the board 7"+d6 turn one and then move another 7" - barely getting into your enemy's deployment zone with an average charge. Unless he is going for "board control", there is either nothing to charge, or something he wants you to charge. So, in order to find good target this way, you are looking at a turn 3 charge - plenty of time to kill him or whittle him down so he can be killed in in combat.
The other options is tellyporting him in. A charge from deepstrike with 'ere we go has a chance of roughly 55% to succeed, which means that in half your games you have him sitting right in front of your opponent's army where they can try to kill, tarpit or kite him at will.
So in the end, the question of what can win a fight against Thrakka is pretty irrelevant, as he is unable to pick his fights. There are units which can defeat him in combat, there are units which can tarpit him for multiple rounds of combat and there are plenty of units which just slow him down for a turn while he gets shot down.
In this regard he also compares badly to many other options orks already have, because those can either join the Evil Suns clan and/or use the ramming speed stratagem for vastly improved odds of making their charges from deep strike, or are fast enough to just cross the board and charge in one turn.

Last, but not least, there is his gigantic point costs. Let's assume he did actually overcome all those hurdles - he still has some wounds left, he didn't get bogged down by chaff and managed to succeed his charge roll. He is now in the middle of some poor sod's Space Wolve army and then kills a unit for three turns in a row until he finally gets put down, the game ends or he is out of stuff to kill. He then still needs to kill 95 points per battleround to justify his point costs. Even if he manages to snag and destroy three eite infantry units, there is no guarantee that they cost that much. A warboss has almost made his points back the second he kills his first unit.

I agree with the assessment that points can be fixed, but without the ability to charge and advance, reliably charge from deep strikes, use transports or have some other way to cross the board faster, neither his costs nor his damage output really matter a whole lot.

I agree with everything you wrote, Ghaz needs something to make it into a top tier unit - advance and charge rules, or a change to his tag from monster to infantry (so that he can go into trukk / can be healed by painboyz).
And that's fine. He still is not trash tier and his wouding rule makes him interesting in many ways.

He's trash because he's 300 points on top of his non-synergy.

**tulun**

Is fielding him in a mech list as a way drawing fire away from your other stuff the only potential use for him?

If your enemy has to waste half their AT to do 4 wounds on ghaz, maybe that’s enough to make him okay. He’d just need a Goff painboy to rub it in. Keep your buggies, Mek guns, dreads unhurt.

The only problem I see is that you might be able to ignore him because he’s not that hard to deal with if he reaches you undamaged anyway.

**VladimirHerzog**

I dislike his "4 wounds max per phase" rule because its something that breaks the core of the game. If you can shoot something, you should be able to put it down, ghaz just ignores this. It reminds me of eliminators and their sniper shots that ignore line of sight. It just gets rid of the core concept that a sniper has to see something to shoot it, removing most counterplay (you can still hide the character in a transport but usually that means his special auras/psychic spells wont be used).

Hes a cool looking model that will sadly probably only be relegated to a count-as or to casual tables. Which isnt bad since many more people play with unoptimised lists than dakkadakka lets us think.

**An Actual Englishman**

WhiteDog wrote:
Who in their right mind will let Ghaz get stuck by a bunch of IG conscripts considering the tools the Ork army have to get rid of them ? This is silly.

An Actual Englishman wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?

Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army.
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

That hasn't answered my question. Listen, I only play with painted models and Ghaz' deserves the best paint job i can muster. By the time I get to playtest him we'll probably be in an edition where he's decent. That ain't now though. Playtesting or not.

To give you some perspective - Ghaz' could have a rule where he is literally invulnerable too all damage all game and I still wouldn't take him. He is too slow, too ponderous and way too expensive to make good use of. His damage potential is reasonable (not good) if he gets to swing against his perfect targets. But he never will (unless your opponent is giving you the game, for some reason). Do you play Orks? You sound like you don't play Orks. Ghaz is a great trap for new/poor players. He has no place in competitive lists.

I write that Ghaz is not competitive but not bad, and you answer that I don't seem to play Ork because he's not competitive (PS: I don't play orks but I play against them).
The fact that you paint models slowly is of no interest to the discussion. Get back to the topic and respond to what is written.

I ask that you follow your own advice. Answer my question (bolded above). How is this competitive Ork player making Ghaz a good investment against an opponent that doesn't literally give him his ideal targets?

It's obvious you don't play Orks because you think Ghaz "is not bad". You have no idea, because you do not play the army and have no understanding of how it functions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aftersong wrote:
well I meant makari being the shield for ghaz, but yeah forgot about the infantry requirement on grot shields.

You also seem to have forgotten that the grot model is SLAIN. There is no save made. No FNP. No invulnerable. Dead.

This is why these sorts of topics exist - people who have no idea what they are talking about attempting to discuss something with conviction. Let it go people. Ghaz is garbage. He will not be taken until he is changed.

**Canadian 5th**

Jidmah wrote:
I agreed with you, you .

I was typing on a phone and "you" takes fewer characters than "players suggesting taking mobs of bikes with Ghaz". I didn't mean to catch you in the crossfire given that you seem to have a correct take on the new Ork rules.

**SemperMortis**

Roberts84 wrote:

I guarantee you Ghaz becomes a feature of every ranked Orks list moving forward. He'll become an autotake in 2k games.

I just wanted to save this little quote for later because literally no ork player in the ork tactics section agrees with you in the slightest. We all think hes mediocre at best and basically stuck in friendly games only.

His impact on Tau didn't even occur to me. Huh. The idea of Ghaz parked in front of Tau castle smashing suits and drones like flies while they can basically do nothing to him other than 4 wounds per round is...never mind.

I change my mind. Ghaz is fine. Needs more wounds and attacks if anything.

You know overwatch is a thing right? Turn 1 Tau do 4 damage with ease to ghaz, turn 2 they do 4 more damage in the shooting phase, then in the charge phase they do 2-4 more wounds to him with relative ease, then guess what? in CC they need 1-2 more wounds and poof, dead ghaz. Plus, as mentioned, if you take ghaz and an infantry horde....thats like Tau players perfect enemy to play against. They would decimate the Ork player turn 1.

Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want. That's assuming civilization is continuing.

Yeah I am taking that bet, but only in big tournaments. Winning a 30 person local tourney doesn't mean diddly squat.

Alright, anyway, I am playing in an escalation league (stupid coronavirus) and my army is currently up to 1250 points, Lets go over my current list and how easy it would be for me to kill Ghaz first turn. Assuming my opponent doesn't screen him with anything too hard to kill.

Turn 1: Ghaz walks up the board, My turn 1 I move my 3 Scrapjets into charge range, Next I either smite Ghaz or I smite his unit of infantry screening him. Then I unleash a broadside into his screening infantry from my 36 Big shoota shots on my scrapjets, Rokkitz and missiles go elsewhere. My warlord who is a big mek with SSAG lights Ghaz up and easily plinks 4 wounds off him, my Mek Gunz either finish off the 4 wounds or help finish off the boyz Mob. Charge Phase (I have done 4 wounds in shooting and possibly up to D6 wounds in psychic) I pop ramming speed on one of my scrapjets and hit him with all 3 on a 2+ I do mortal wounds, then I have 3 4+s to do D3 more mortal wounds, in the charge phase. In CC phase my Scrapjets have 12 attacks hitting on 4s (6 hits) wounding on 3s (4 wounds) against a 4+ save either invuln or normal armor (-2 AP) so 2 go through, D3 damage each....and poof I just deleted Ghaz turn 1 with my army without that much effort. if I took a 2k army I would easily get a Smite off on him or possibly hit him with a Bomb in the movement phase. Point being, Ghaz is not competitive in the slightest, if my Escalation league army can kill him turn 1 with relative ease then SM's shouldn't have a hard time of it.

**gmaleron**

No Marine player should be complaining about him considering how insane their recent rules have been

**Nitro Zeus**

Canadian 5th wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yeah and if your anti-tank is say a Repulsor or two, you gotta overcommit or risk going under (which would be much worse).

So if your list is bad and only packs a single all or nothing source of anti-tank Ghaz is sort of okay... I'm seeing no issues here.

No, most armies over there are gonna run a pretty good chance of going over those 4 wounds every phase lol. You don’t just allocate a flat 4 wounds. It’s just a hidden advantage of Ghaz.

**JNAProductions**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Canadian 5th wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yeah and if your anti-tank is say a Repulsor or two, you gotta overcommit or risk going under (which would be much worse).

So if your list is bad and only packs a single all or nothing source of anti-tank Ghaz is sort of okay... I'm seeing no issues here.

No, most armies over there are gonna run a pretty good chance of going over those 4 wounds every phase lol. You don’t just allocate a flat 4 wounds. It’s just a hidden advantage of Ghaz.

Overkill, while wasteful, will rarely lose you the game, unless it's REALLY excessive.

If you drop 48 wounds on Ghaz, then yeah, you're probably in a bad spot. But I'd wager a guess that it'd be rare to drop more than 8 wounds on Ghaz a phase-and generally, shouldn't be too difficult to land 4 or 5 exactly.

**Nitro Zeus**

I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.

One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.

**An Actual Englishman**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.

One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.

Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.

Particularly when I have already shared comments on Ghaz from a real, existing, competitive Ork player. From way back on page 3, here they are again; https://www.grimdarkfilthycasuals.com/saga-of-the-beast-preview-faction-focus-orks/

Weird huh, that competitive Ork players seem to agree with all these 'notoriously casual but disproportionately vocal Ork playerbase'?

Now can you stop insulting an entire community with your inane and wrong claims. Ghaz is poor as he currently stands. A 'cool' (envious) ability does not change that.

**Afrodactyl**

Ghaz is very good at smashing characters and vehicles. That's about it, as his aura is basically goff locked. The only people that will take Ghaz in competitive lists are those that are trying to prove a point. What you will see is 'Ghaz Jr', being a warboss with the Killa Klaw and the new big boss stratagem. About as effective as mulching things as Ghaz is, for a third of the cost and untargetable.

Ghaz is good at what he does, but point for point (what this have ultimately boils down to) he's awful.

**Nitro Zeus**

Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

**Jackal90**

The main issue is that Ghaz has no special requirements to kill him.
The average TAC list covers all bases fairly well, so dropping 4 wounds on him per turn/phase really isn’t difficult.

He has his uses, sure, but to make the most out of him you have to build around him.
This is great, but you are then hampering yourself even more as you are literally throwing points away to get use out of an over costed model.

If he were dropped in points or given a boost then sure, he wouldn’t be bad.

The only scenarios I’ve seen people give that have him on top are when people use ideal situations or against armies that are really struggling at the moment anyway.
In either case, a biker boss still works out better.

In terms of wound locks, AoS has this anyway.
Morathi has 12 wounds, locked to 3 per turn (not phase)
She also has instant death shooting, magic, high movement and solid combat.
She’s also over priced and barely ever used.

People really are over thinking and overestimating his survival.
Just saying “well once he’s in combat” is moot as he has to get there first.
He’s slow, if he’s in a transport that will take target priority.
If he’s teleported he’s in front of an entire army alone.

Also, the whole point of “well Ghaz also has an army with him” doesn’t go far either.
The other player also has an entire army and it doesn’t take that entire army to kill Ghaz, so sending in bikers etc assuming they will wipe everything without being shot off the board just won’t happen.
Any player at a tournament should know how to prioritise targets based on the turn and what’s needed.

If Ghaz is sat back and you send in a wave of bikes, those bikes will be melted first.
They also lack the ability to remove decent screens unless you throw in a biker boss.
At that point, you already have something better than Ghaz anyway for less points that does more.

**Morkphoiz**

Can we like... Close this thread now? That Roberts guy obviously has no clue about the meta and his claims are just ridiculous. Usually stuff like this is funny but that guy ist just infuriating.

**endlesswaltz123**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

You are far too level headed and considered in your approach, that won't fly here where common sense is not considered an optimum attribute.

Genuinely amazing that people aren't willing to allow play testing to form a genuine conclusion. I mean, I'm pretty sure I did not read about or witness a leviathan dread in an Iron Hands list being suped up to the nines for months after the release of the supplement.

Now I'm not suggesting Ghaz has some convoluted power gaming synergy options like a leviathan had(s) in an IH list, but lets wait and see first before dismissing the rules completely outright, as like I said before, none of the people on here or in most other areas I read and review perceived that truly game breaking combo in the IH list, people just need to accept you cannot rule something out until you have exhausted all the possibilities.

What I do find interesting about Ghaz and where he has potential is most likely outside the ITC rule set. GW missions where there are central objectives to capture or more mid line objectives. Your opponent is going to have to move towards it at some point, and any way you can reduce the amount of movement Ghaz needs to make to reach the enemy will be a benefit to the model, especially if it's later game where a lot of the more killy units in the opponents army has been taken care of (or you'd hope so anyway).

**Slayer-Fan123**

What testing needs to be done? For 300 points you can get more Warbosses that are more likely to survive till T3 thanks to Character Protection rules, AND you'll have an easier time filling HQ slots.

**Lammia**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

You are far too level headed and considered in your approach, that won't fly here where common sense is not considered an optimum attribute.

Genuinely amazing that people aren't willing to allow play testing to form a genuine conclusion. I mean, I'm pretty sure I did not read about or witness a leviathan dread in an Iron Hands list being suped up to the nines for months after the release of the supplement.

Now I'm not suggesting Ghaz has some convoluted power gaming synergy options like a leviathan had(s) in an IH list, but lets wait and see first before dismissing the rules completely outright, as like I said before, none of the people on here or in most other areas I read and review perceived that truly game breaking combo in the IH list, people just need to accept you cannot rule something out until you have exhausted all the possibilities.

What I do find interesting about Ghaz and where he has potential is most likely outside the ITC rule set. GW missions where there are central objectives to capture or more mid line objectives. Your opponent is going to have to move towards it at some point, and any way you can reduce the amount of movement Ghaz needs to make to reach the enemy will be a benefit to the model, especially if it's later game where a lot of the more killy units in the opponents army has been taken care of (or you'd hope so anyway).

We know how his basic stat line does at his cost though and the things we can and can't do with him.

**Jidmah**

Lammia wrote:
We know how his basic stat line does at his cost though and the things we can and can't do with him.

This.
Thrakka is a thing that hits hard and moves 7". Which is no different from the hard hitting thing that moves 6" (deff dread) or the hard hitting thing that moves 8"(gorkanaut), the hard hitting thing which moves 10"(bonebreaka), or the hard hitting thing which moves 14" (biker warboss).
We have abundant experience how to make these work if we really want to and what their weaknesses are.
The only unknown quantity is his max 4 wounds rule, but that doesn't really make any of the problems go away that we know he will have - from the experience of playing those units listed above for multiple years.
If you have four rocks rolling downhill, you don't need to wait and see whether the fifth rock rolls uphill.

**An Actual Englishman**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

Listen this is the best post I've seen you make in this thread and I'll give you the same courtesy you've shown me in a considered and intelligent response.

I don't believe I'm some authority on the subject and I don't believe my opinions are gospel. When I say something with conviction I don't mean to imply it is fact. I do think some of the things I've disregarded or claimed are facts though - currently Ghaz' cannot advance and charge through any means. This is a fact. He cannot be jumped or benefit from the painboy aura. Another fact. He cannot benefit from Grot Shields etc. There's plenty of people - intelligent people - who have made all sorts of rules mistakes about Ghaz' (such as those above) because they think they know his statline and rules. Those same people are often claiming he's 'OP'.

I believe Ghaz' is a trap. I don't think he's worth anywhere near the points he currently costs. I would love and hope to be wrong on this because I am getting the model and I want to put it on the table without nerfing myself. The problem I see with Ghaz', as an Ork player, is that he just won't make his points back unless your opponent makes a mistake. I don't think his durability is particularly difficult to overcome to do those 4 wounds a phase and in all honesty I think the wounds lock actually helps your opponent - once they have done 4 wounds they know they can ignore him for the remainder of the phase. Realistically this only saves Ghaz' in combat, but his odds of getting there whether Tellyporta'd or walking aren't that high IMO.

The easiest way to consider this is simply imagine if you'd take him in your army, forgetting army restrictions for a second. Would you really get that much value out of this near 300 pts model?

Again I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for some genius to work out a way to play him without gimping themselves. I have thought about a Goff detachment with Makari and maybe a Painboy myself but it just becomes soo expensive. Either way, we won't know until the circuit picks up again which is at least 2 months away so no point going round in circles here. Hopefully that makes more sense?

**nareik**

My only regret is how he isn’t a lord of war. Ghaz and two stompas in a low detachment for my 2k force!

**Nitro Zeus**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

Listen this is the best post I've seen you make in this thread and I'll give you the same courtesy you've shown me in a considered and intelligent response.

I don't believe I'm some authority on the subject and I don't believe my opinions are gospel. When I say something with conviction I don't mean to imply it is fact. I do think some of the things I've disregarded or claimed are facts though - currently Ghaz' cannot advance and charge through any means. This is a fact. He cannot be jumped or benefit from the painboy aura. Another fact. He cannot benefit from Grot Shields etc. There's plenty of people - intelligent people - who have made all sorts of rules mistakes about Ghaz' (such as those above) because they think they know his statline and rules. Those same people are often claiming he's 'OP'.

I believe Ghaz' is a trap. I don't think he's worth anywhere near the points he currently costs. I would love and hope to be wrong on this because I am getting the model and I want to put it on the table without nerfing myself. The problem I see with Ghaz', as an Ork player, is that he just won't make his points back unless your opponent makes a mistake. I don't think his durability is particularly difficult to overcome to do those 4 wounds a phase and in all honesty I think the wounds lock actually helps your opponent - once they have done 4 wounds they know they can ignore him for the remainder of the phase. Realistically this only saves Ghaz' in combat, but his odds of getting there whether Tellyporta'd or walking aren't that high IMO.

The easiest way to consider this is simply imagine if you'd take him in your army, forgetting army restrictions for a second. Would you really get that much value out of this near 300 pts model?

Again I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for some genius to work out a way to play him without gimping themselves. I have thought about a Goff detachment with Makari and maybe a Painboy myself but it just becomes soo expensive. Either way, we won't know until the circuit picks up again which is at least 2 months away so no point going round in circles here. Hopefully that makes more sense?

I didn't realise he was the full 285 till just now. I'll admit that's a bit on the steep side. I was thinking 250 or under for some reason, but yeah he's probably about 50 or so too much. I don't think he's the worst thing you could take in the dex, but yeah I'm gonna say it too - he's probably just not doing it for that price. 235 he'd be lit.

**Tycho**

This thread has been kind of hilarious to follow. In some ways, it kind of parallels the disconnect between GW rules writers, and the competitive player base at large, which has also been interesting.

Like most have said - he's way too expensive. Even more so when you consider how many more points Makari adds (he's not worth it either sadly). I initially DID think how difficult Ghaz might be for Tau to handle, but then I remembered how damn SLOW he is. They can largely ignore him.

Ever since their codex came out, my primary has been Death Guard, and Ghaz has all the same issues as a Lord of Contagion, but at a significantly higher cost. I call it "Mutilator Syndrome". GW has a habit of making units that are potentially strong in melee, and then making sure they have almost ZERO reliable ways of getting there.

As far as his 4 wounds per phase - I don't necessarily know if it's BAD game design, but it does feel like lazy game design. Like someone else said, it feels like they did that solely to help combat the fact that he can be targeted, but I don't know how much it actually helps ...

For my own Orks (a secondary army since second ed.), I'll take a Big Boss all day every day!

**Slayer-Fan123**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

Listen this is the best post I've seen you make in this thread and I'll give you the same courtesy you've shown me in a considered and intelligent response.

I don't believe I'm some authority on the subject and I don't believe my opinions are gospel. When I say something with conviction I don't mean to imply it is fact. I do think some of the things I've disregarded or claimed are facts though - currently Ghaz' cannot advance and charge through any means. This is a fact. He cannot be jumped or benefit from the painboy aura. Another fact. He cannot benefit from Grot Shields etc. There's plenty of people - intelligent people - who have made all sorts of rules mistakes about Ghaz' (such as those above) because they think they know his statline and rules. Those same people are often claiming he's 'OP'.

I believe Ghaz' is a trap. I don't think he's worth anywhere near the points he currently costs. I would love and hope to be wrong on this because I am getting the model and I want to put it on the table without nerfing myself. The problem I see with Ghaz', as an Ork player, is that he just won't make his points back unless your opponent makes a mistake. I don't think his durability is particularly difficult to overcome to do those 4 wounds a phase and in all honesty I think the wounds lock actually helps your opponent - once they have done 4 wounds they know they can ignore him for the remainder of the phase. Realistically this only saves Ghaz' in combat, but his odds of getting there whether Tellyporta'd or walking aren't that high IMO.

The easiest way to consider this is simply imagine if you'd take him in your army, forgetting army restrictions for a second. Would you really get that much value out of this near 300 pts model?

Again I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for some genius to work out a way to play him without gimping themselves. I have thought about a Goff detachment with Makari and maybe a Painboy myself but it just becomes soo expensive. Either way, we won't know until the circuit picks up again which is at least 2 months away so no point going round in circles here. Hopefully that makes more sense?

I didn't realise he was the full 285 till just now. I'll admit that's a bit on the steep side. I was thinking 250 or under for some reason, but yeah he's probably about 50 or so too much. I don't think he's the worst thing you could take in the dex, but yeah I'm gonna say it too - he's probably just not doing it for that price. 235 he'd be lit.

You realize when people were saying he was 300 points, they were only exaggerating by 15 right?

**SemperMortis**

Honestly, at 200pts it would be a stretch to take him, 2 Warbosses for 160pts and 40pts left over for other stuff still sounds better then a Ghaz model.

**Nitro Zeus**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Nice! You link my buddy's site that I've helped write articles for as proof why I'm wrong! I gotta have a chuckle at that. But genuinely, thanks for promoting it, I haven't been able to be so active lately but GDFC really are those guys, they are really working hard to bring quality content with a fresher, more grounded take on the meta that isn't being influenced by any sort of promotional entities, and have shared some really great perspectives on the community and game as a whole that I wish some other places were brave enough to delve into.

I'm most definitely not insulting an entire community. There's nothing wrong with being casual, and thats not the entire community. Anyway, I'm not acquainted with Dustin but I respect his opinions, and I also respect the capability for two players to disagree on something... just like top players do with each other all the time. Have you ever listened to any of competitive players discuss the game on a podcast or in real life, like, ever, haha? There is rarely a universal opinion on anything, and there definitely isn't one for Ghaz yet. And just like my own opinions, putting them in article does not make them indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree. Especially when it's first takes on leaked rules that haven't been playtested yet. I don't think these early takes on fresh new rules from people passionate about the game, are the uncheckable source you think they are. You have your opinions I have mine. But the article you linked doesn't even mirror your own opinion, he spoke to the good and the bad and made an early prediction, but most definitely did not claim his statements are the gospel. I'll try get in contact with him tonight and speak to him personally on the topic

Listen this is the best post I've seen you make in this thread and I'll give you the same courtesy you've shown me in a considered and intelligent response.

I don't believe I'm some authority on the subject and I don't believe my opinions are gospel. When I say something with conviction I don't mean to imply it is fact. I do think some of the things I've disregarded or claimed are facts though - currently Ghaz' cannot advance and charge through any means. This is a fact. He cannot be jumped or benefit from the painboy aura. Another fact. He cannot benefit from Grot Shields etc. There's plenty of people - intelligent people - who have made all sorts of rules mistakes about Ghaz' (such as those above) because they think they know his statline and rules. Those same people are often claiming he's 'OP'.

I believe Ghaz' is a trap. I don't think he's worth anywhere near the points he currently costs. I would love and hope to be wrong on this because I am getting the model and I want to put it on the table without nerfing myself. The problem I see with Ghaz', as an Ork player, is that he just won't make his points back unless your opponent makes a mistake. I don't think his durability is particularly difficult to overcome to do those 4 wounds a phase and in all honesty I think the wounds lock actually helps your opponent - once they have done 4 wounds they know they can ignore him for the remainder of the phase. Realistically this only saves Ghaz' in combat, but his odds of getting there whether Tellyporta'd or walking aren't that high IMO.

The easiest way to consider this is simply imagine if you'd take him in your army, forgetting army restrictions for a second. Would you really get that much value out of this near 300 pts model?

Again I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for some genius to work out a way to play him without gimping themselves. I have thought about a Goff detachment with Makari and maybe a Painboy myself but it just becomes soo expensive. Either way, we won't know until the circuit picks up again which is at least 2 months away so no point going round in circles here. Hopefully that makes more sense?

I didn't realise he was the full 285 till just now. I'll admit that's a bit on the steep side. I was thinking 250 or under for some reason, but yeah he's probably about 50 or so too much. I don't think he's the worst thing you could take in the dex, but yeah I'm gonna say it too - he's probably just not doing it for that price. 235 he'd be lit.

You realize when people were saying he was 300 points, they were only exaggerating by 15 right?

I realise that now

I'll hold the L on this one. Still not saying my opinion is gospel of course and I'm open to counter arguments, but my opinion is now that you guys are right, and that 285 is indeed just a bit too high for what he can offer.

**Jidmah**

Nitro Zeus wrote:
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Nitro Zeus wrote:
I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.

One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.

Between those two posts nine separate posters have referred to his point costs in 11 separate posts, not counting quotes. Berating people on how casual they are without even reading half the posts or bothering to check the topic at hand? Grand sport.

**oni**

TLDR: Ghaz is OP AF. The Prophet of Gork & Mork rule is absurdly broken. Anyone who thinks differently is delusional; period.