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2020/03/30 02:26:49
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Gee, it's almost as though letting the opponent get a whole turn before you can do anything leads to bad design overall like Ghaz's new rule or the absurd "everyone gets cover if you go second" Strat.
I don't necessarily disagree but I also think it's far to say that this isn't necessarily the core problem. 40k has been IGOUGO since at least 3rd (that's as far back as my experience of the game goes), and it's previously worked a lot better than this.
I think there are a number of contributing factors:
- Gradual increase in long-range weapons. With the addition of Knights, Fliers, Riptides, Leviathans etc., the game has gradually acquired more and more long-range weapons that also tend to be very powerful. So not only do armies have a greater ability to reach across the table on turn 1, they also have a far better chance to eliminate key units outright (as opposed to in the past where, unless you got lucky, you'd mostly just expect to stun or shake your opponent's vehicles or chip off some wounds from a MC).
- Increase in movement and mobility. In the past there were very few (if any) units that could move more than 12", prior to the Assault Phase. But with the Movement stat, movement rates have (on average) increased significantly - especially for many vehicles (especially given that every unit can now make a Run move - not just those with Fleet of Foot). Hell, we've got units the size of buildings that fly across the table with no seemingly no penalties whatsoever for their sheer size.
What's more, moving used to impose far harsher penalties. It used to be that Rapid-Fire weapons could only fire at 24" if they remained stationary (IIRC, back in 3rd moving meant they could only fire a single shot at 12"), and Heavy Weapons generally couldn't fire at all if they moved. It also used to be that vehicles could only fire all of their weapons if they remained stationary, just 1 if they moved 6" and none at all if they moved more. Now, though, Rapid Fire weapons can fire to full effect regardless of whether the model moved, and moving with a Heavy Weapon imposes a meagre -1 penalty on the shooter (and many units - including basic heavy-weapon infantry like Havocs - ignore even that pitiful penalty). Vehicles, meanwhile, can move their maximum speed and still fire all their weapons.
- Then we've got the cover mechanics, which might as well not exist. Shooting through units no longer imposes any penalties whatsoever. Nor does shooting through walls or shooting at units that are out of LoS.
The upshot is that it's much, much easier to get units into effective range on turn 1 than it was in past editions. There are more and greater long-range weapons, many units can move further, there are fewer penalties for moving, it's much harder for defenders to gain meaningful cover, and sniping non-character assets is incredibly easy.
And this is before we even get into the removal of Night Fighting rules, general increases in damage for long-range weapons, auras, stratagems (especially ones that allow a unit to fire twice) etc.
Very true - 30k still active today really highlights these differences imo and it doesn't even have the variety that 40k used to do since 80% of the field is some flavor of Marines.
30k has exactly the same problem so I haven't a clue what you're going on about.
Slayer - do you play 30k?
VERY unlikely you lose a Knight turn 1 at 2k points in 30k. 30k has nice anti-Marine weaponry like Phosphex that makes power armor a risk - but the game isn't only Marines anymore so that's not always a problem.
Things are allowed to die turn 1. "The exact same problem" of losing most your strength turn? nah. Not at all. There's a reason the Land Raider is one of the most played units in the game, that alone should tell you the difference between 30k and 40k.
Don't forget that all the legions actually have pretty good rules, and that they're actually drawbacks tied into rules in order to give some balance.
2020/03/30 03:45:20
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.
One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.
Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.
Weird huh, that competitive Ork players seem to agree with all these 'notoriously casual but disproportionately vocal Ork playerbase'?
Now can you stop insulting an entire community with your inane and wrong claims. Ghaz is poor as he currently stands. A 'cool' (envious) ability does not change that.
Ok so now that the article has dropped, I think I'm free to share who I was referring to here to provide some credibility to my original statements.
Steven Pampreen, 2019 ITC's #1 Ork player by no short measure, thinks Ghaz has competitive potential, and he goes into detail about why he thinks so in the article.
At the price I'm still personally ambivalent, but I do think playtesting is definitely in order and I don't think Ghaz is "awful and trash" anymore than I think he is "Absurdly OP" like the OP claimed. Like most Dakka debates, I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and measured, and lies somewhere in the middle.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/30 03:47:28
2020/03/30 04:28:48
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my statements or his, but neither of us are giving a big endorsement to the model or anything like that, which is why it wouldn't seem like one. It's a statement that he may have some use competitively and some ideas on how to run him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 04:45:35
2020/03/30 05:24:27
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm not sure if you're referring to my statements or his, but neither of us are giving a big endorsement to the model or anything like that, which is why it wouldn't seem like one. It's a statement that he may have some use competitively and some ideas on how to run him.
Well at the very least, GW seems to have been able to make Ghaz somewhat efficient in a traditionnal Goff army which was the least we could ask for.
2020/03/30 05:56:34
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm not sure if you're referring to my statements or his, but neither of us are giving a big endorsement to the model or anything like that, which is why it wouldn't seem like one. It's a statement that he may have some use competitively and some ideas on how to run him.
Well, to be blunt, the goff horde idea is not going to work. Old Ghaz could already do that and yet nobody did. Outside of Ghaz, the list has gotten nothing from PA, so it's just as bad as it was before.
For the vehicle idea he basically says "It's a distraction carnifex" which is just an euphemism for "this unit does nothing" - a naut also draws fire from you vehicles, but can usually shoot at least once.
He also stated that Thrakka was just killed off without much of an effect in both his test games.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/03/30 06:05:07
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm not sure if you're referring to my statements or his, but neither of us are giving a big endorsement to the model or anything like that, which is why it wouldn't seem like one. It's a statement that he may have some use competitively and some ideas on how to run him.
Well, to be blunt, the goff horde idea is not going to work. Old Ghaz could already do that and yet nobody did. Outside of Ghaz, the list has gotten nothing from PA, so it's just as bad as it was before.
For the vehicle idea he basically says "It's a distraction carnifex" which is just an euphemism for "this unit does nothing" - a naut also draws fire from you vehicles, but can usually shoot at least once.
He also stated that Thrakka was just killed off without much of an effect in both his test games.
To be fair, you're probably not going to do a Goff horde. Seems like a possible use for a mixed Battalion.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm not sure if you're referring to my statements or his, but neither of us are giving a big endorsement to the model or anything like that, which is why it wouldn't seem like one. It's a statement that he may have some use competitively and some ideas on how to run him.
Well, to be blunt, the goff horde idea is not going to work. Old Ghaz could already do that and yet nobody did. Outside of Ghaz, the list has gotten nothing from PA, so it's just as bad as it was before. For the vehicle idea he basically says "It's a distraction carnifex" which is just an euphemism for "this unit does nothing" - a naut also draws fire from you vehicles, but can usually shoot at least once. He also stated that Thrakka was just killed off without much of an effect in both his test games.
All good. I was just asked to support my statements earlier and now that I can, I went back and did. Like I said, I'm not sold on Ghaz either now that I've seen the official price.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 06:19:08
2020/03/30 08:05:49
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.
One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.
Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.
Weird huh, that competitive Ork players seem to agree with all these 'notoriously casual but disproportionately vocal Ork playerbase'?
Now can you stop insulting an entire community with your inane and wrong claims. Ghaz is poor as he currently stands. A 'cool' (envious) ability does not change that.
Ok so now that the article has dropped, I think I'm free to share who I was referring to here to provide some credibility to my original statements.
Steven Pampreen, 2019 ITC's #1 Ork player by no short measure, thinks Ghaz has competitive potential, and he goes into detail about why he thinks so in the article.
At the price I'm still personally ambivalent, but I do think playtesting is definitely in order and I don't think Ghaz is "awful and trash" anymore than I think he is "Absurdly OP" like the OP claimed. Like most Dakka debates, I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and measured, and lies somewhere in the middle.
This was completely unnecessary really, since, now you realise the points cost, you agree that Ghaz is too expensive for what he offers.
As for his credibility - Pampreen stopped playing Orks as soon as IH released. His opinion is no more gospel than mine or yours.
I'll await him to win a few majors with Ghaz before I rescind my opinion (I don't think this will happen).
2020/03/30 09:01:00
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
I don't know if ghaz is or isn't powerful, but the damage limit rule is a powerful on. If it was on a faster model, it could become a problem, and it is not like anything is stopping GW from saying that some unit is super resilient, and now is getting the same treatment. An imperial or eldar knight, or a space marine tank could become OP, if it got a rule like that or similar.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/03/30 13:30:44
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.
One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.
Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.
Weird huh, that competitive Ork players seem to agree with all these 'notoriously casual but disproportionately vocal Ork playerbase'?
Now can you stop insulting an entire community with your inane and wrong claims. Ghaz is poor as he currently stands. A 'cool' (envious) ability does not change that.
Ok so now that the article has dropped, I think I'm free to share who I was referring to here to provide some credibility to my original statements.
Steven Pampreen, 2019 ITC's #1 Ork player by no short measure, thinks Ghaz has competitive potential, and he goes into detail about why he thinks so in the article.
At the price I'm still personally ambivalent, but I do think playtesting is definitely in order and I don't think Ghaz is "awful and trash" anymore than I think he is "Absurdly OP" like the OP claimed. Like most Dakka debates, I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and measured, and lies somewhere in the middle.
This was completely unnecessary really, since, now you realise the points cost, you agree that Ghaz is too expensive for what he offers.
As for his credibility - Pampreen stopped playing Orks as soon as IH released. His opinion is no more gospel than mine or yours.
I'll await him to win a few majors with Ghaz before I rescind my opinion (I don't think this will happen).
But... you made a big deal about "Aha i know someone who works at nintendo!" and went out your way to mock my credibility. It doesn't matter what my stance is. I'm confirming that the statements I made about how top Ork players feel, were in fact, coming from a place of knowledge.
Also, my stance does not mirror your own. I don't think he's this excellent model anymore, because 285 is just a bit too costly to call it that. I also don't think he's "garbage" or useless however.
Pampreen is a proven amazing Ork player who has seen better results than any other player with this dex. You're joking to dismiss his opinion because he picked up Iron Hands like 90% of the rest of the meta lol. I didn't say anything about his opinion being the gospel, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm the one who said you're free to disagree with anything you like. But you posited that all "competitive players" are agreeing with you, and that's simply not the case.
Here's from Nick Nanavati himself about Ghaz:
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/30 13:37:21
2020/03/30 13:33:13
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’m not saying it’s some massive overlooked thing that’s gonna win you a ton of games. It is however, another cool thing about the unit.
One of the best Ork players I know of in the world says Ghaz has potential and is differently a wrecking ball in some matches, and a late game crusher in others. The best Ork player I’ve met irl currently wont call it as good or bad, and says playtesting is required for such a unit. This is what good players are saying, and it’s where I’m inclined to sit as well. However This site has a notoriously casual yet disproportionately vocal Ork player base who don’t exactly have a good track record with this sort thing. It’s the same people in these threads everytime. I respect the level heads and experience of people like Jidmah, but there’s others who are WAY to sure of something that hasn’t actually hit playtesting yet - not that I think their low level playtesting would really be the measure, but considering how famously wrong some of the louder voices in here have been in the past, you’d think there’d at least be some level of restraint before making these “indisputable” declarations and calling everyone stupid who disagrees.
Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.
Weird huh, that competitive Ork players seem to agree with all these 'notoriously casual but disproportionately vocal Ork playerbase'?
Now can you stop insulting an entire community with your inane and wrong claims. Ghaz is poor as he currently stands. A 'cool' (envious) ability does not change that.
Ok so now that the article has dropped, I think I'm free to share who I was referring to here to provide some credibility to my original statements.
Steven Pampreen, 2019 ITC's #1 Ork player by no short measure, thinks Ghaz has competitive potential, and he goes into detail about why he thinks so in the article.
At the price I'm still personally ambivalent, but I do think playtesting is definitely in order and I don't think Ghaz is "awful and trash" anymore than I think he is "Absurdly OP" like the OP claimed. Like most Dakka debates, I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and measured, and lies somewhere in the middle.
This was completely unnecessary really, since, now you realise the points cost, you agree that Ghaz is too expensive for what he offers.
As for his credibility - Pampreen stopped playing Orks as soon as IH released. His opinion is no more gospel than mine or yours.
I'll await him to win a few majors with Ghaz before I rescind my opinion (I don't think this will happen).
But... you made a big deal about "Aha i know someone who works at nintendo!" and went out your way to mock my credibility. It doesn't matter what my stance is. I'm confirming that the statements I made about how top Ork players feel, were in fact, coming from a place of knowledge.
Pampreen is a proven amazing Ork player who has seen better results than any other player with this dex. You're joking to dismiss his opinion because he picked up Iron Hands like 90% of the rest of the meta lol. I didn't say anything about his opinion being the gospel, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm the one who said you're free to disagree with anything you like. But you posited that all "competitive players" are agreeing with you, and that's simply not the case.
Here's from Nick Nanavati himself about Ghaz:
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
Of course you were right ... It's obvious that this specific wounding rule opens up a lot of possibility, and people that were arguing he was trash (like in the news and rumor PA thread) were just talking without carefully assessing the facts. This doesn't change the fact that his cost is too high and that some of the problem that comes with his new monster tag greatly reduce his utility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 13:43:41
2020/03/30 14:21:05
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
I'd like to point out that Nick isn't actually someone who actually knows his way around orks. When the codex dropped, he had tons of articles and posts about how orks were by far the most powerful codex and proclaimed that certain units were hidden gems just waiting to be found. He never got orks to work, almost completely dropping from the radar while he played them. Some of the people you called "casuals" just a few pages back have more top placements in GTs with orks than Nick does. Only when he switched to GSC he started placing well again. He is a great player, but not someone you should listen to when it comes to orks.
The thing is, many people apply their knowledge from their army to orks. Eldar, tau, necrons, guard and the entire marines rainbow all work kind of similar and follow certain patterns. If you try to apply those patterns to orks, you will fall flat on your face. However, this has never stopped those people from doing so when theorycrafting - see my signature for an example. There also is Reece infamous review of the orks codex, claiming the stompa to be one of the best units in the game and that melee gretchin are the best troops in the game. I've joined dakka over nine years ago, and the pattern has always been the same. Orks get something and half the forum evaluates it in the context of their army and claim how OP it is, ignoring the context of a codex which doesn't have what the vast majority of other armies take as given.
There also is another thing: Just like real orks, the ork community here on dakka rarely agrees on anything. If all ork players tell you a unit is bad, the chances of it being good anyways is basically zero. From all the releases I experienced here on dakka, the only models which got an as unified opinion out of our ork community was the mekboy workshop and the squigbuggy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 14:21:22
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/03/30 14:29:43
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
There's a reason the Land Raider is one of the most played units in the game, that alone should tell you the difference between 30k and 40k.
That was the first thing I thought about when I read Slayer's statement ... I know Slayer has been around for a while, but his posts (lately) are reading more and more like Peregrine's ie "I just came here to bash everything ..."
As for the actual thread topic - As I mentioned, my primary is DG, but I have a large Ork force that I use as one of my more "fun/casual/hobby" armies. My Ork lists tend to just be focused around something I think will be amusing to play, and tend not be what you would consider a "good" Ork list, but as I was looking at my codex last night, it struck me that I'd rather take "old Ghaz" than "new Ghaz". What do you all (who play Orks more seriously than I do) think about that? Am I crazy, or is that a thing?
Regardless, new Ghaz is going to see some tables, and I don't think he's complete trash, but man, a 285pt "distraction carnifex" that's slow as slow can be, is completely hampered by even a small wall, can't be transported, can't be da-jumped, but CAN be targeted? That's just too much work for me ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 15:19:43
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/03/30 16:31:24
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Gee, it's almost as though letting the opponent get a whole turn before you can do anything leads to bad design overall like Ghaz's new rule or the absurd "everyone gets cover if you go second" Strat.
I don't necessarily disagree but I also think it's far to say that this isn't necessarily the core problem. 40k has been IGOUGO since at least 3rd (that's as far back as my experience of the game goes), and it's previously worked a lot better than this.
I think there are a number of contributing factors:
- Gradual increase in long-range weapons. With the addition of Knights, Fliers, Riptides, Leviathans etc., the game has gradually acquired more and more long-range weapons that also tend to be very powerful. So not only do armies have a greater ability to reach across the table on turn 1, they also have a far better chance to eliminate key units outright (as opposed to in the past where, unless you got lucky, you'd mostly just expect to stun or shake your opponent's vehicles or chip off some wounds from a MC).
- Increase in movement and mobility. In the past there were very few (if any) units that could move more than 12", prior to the Assault Phase. But with the Movement stat, movement rates have (on average) increased significantly - especially for many vehicles (especially given that every unit can now make a Run move - not just those with Fleet of Foot). Hell, we've got units the size of buildings that fly across the table with no seemingly no penalties whatsoever for their sheer size.
What's more, moving used to impose far harsher penalties. It used to be that Rapid-Fire weapons could only fire at 24" if they remained stationary (IIRC, back in 3rd moving meant they could only fire a single shot at 12"), and Heavy Weapons generally couldn't fire at all if they moved. It also used to be that vehicles could only fire all of their weapons if they remained stationary, just 1 if they moved 6" and none at all if they moved more. Now, though, Rapid Fire weapons can fire to full effect regardless of whether the model moved, and moving with a Heavy Weapon imposes a meagre -1 penalty on the shooter (and many units - including basic heavy-weapon infantry like Havocs - ignore even that pitiful penalty). Vehicles, meanwhile, can move their maximum speed and still fire all their weapons.
- Then we've got the cover mechanics, which might as well not exist. Shooting through units no longer imposes any penalties whatsoever. Nor does shooting through walls or shooting at units that are out of LoS.
The upshot is that it's much, much easier to get units into effective range on turn 1 than it was in past editions. There are more and greater long-range weapons, many units can move further, there are fewer penalties for moving, it's much harder for defenders to gain meaningful cover, and sniping non-character assets is incredibly easy.
And this is before we even get into the removal of Night Fighting rules, general increases in damage for long-range weapons, auras, stratagems (especially ones that allow a unit to fire twice) etc.
Very true - 30k still active today really highlights these differences imo and it doesn't even have the variety that 40k used to do since 80% of the field is some flavor of Marines.
30k has exactly the same problem so I haven't a clue what you're going on about.
Slayer - do you play 30k?
VERY unlikely you lose a Knight turn 1 at 2k points in 30k. 30k has nice anti-Marine weaponry like Phosphex that makes power armor a risk - but the game isn't only Marines anymore so that's not always a problem.
Things are allowed to die turn 1. "The exact same problem" of losing most your strength turn? nah. Not at all. There's a reason the Land Raider is one of the most played units in the game, that alone should tell you the difference between 30k and 40k.
Don't forget that all the legions actually have pretty good rules, and that they're actually drawbacks tied into rules in order to give some balance.
I actually have played 30k thank you very much, with both Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. LOL Land Raiders are not that heavily picked. I've seen the Spartan sometimes but the Land Raider no, all for the same reason as they weren't picked in 6th and 7th.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/03/30 16:45:52
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Gee, it's almost as though letting the opponent get a whole turn before you can do anything leads to bad design overall like Ghaz's new rule or the absurd "everyone gets cover if you go second" Strat.
I don't necessarily disagree but I also think it's far to say that this isn't necessarily the core problem. 40k has been IGOUGO since at least 3rd (that's as far back as my experience of the game goes), and it's previously worked a lot better than this.
I think there are a number of contributing factors:
- Gradual increase in long-range weapons. With the addition of Knights, Fliers, Riptides, Leviathans etc., the game has gradually acquired more and more long-range weapons that also tend to be very powerful. So not only do armies have a greater ability to reach across the table on turn 1, they also have a far better chance to eliminate key units outright (as opposed to in the past where, unless you got lucky, you'd mostly just expect to stun or shake your opponent's vehicles or chip off some wounds from a MC).
- Increase in movement and mobility. In the past there were very few (if any) units that could move more than 12", prior to the Assault Phase. But with the Movement stat, movement rates have (on average) increased significantly - especially for many vehicles (especially given that every unit can now make a Run move - not just those with Fleet of Foot). Hell, we've got units the size of buildings that fly across the table with no seemingly no penalties whatsoever for their sheer size.
What's more, moving used to impose far harsher penalties. It used to be that Rapid-Fire weapons could only fire at 24" if they remained stationary (IIRC, back in 3rd moving meant they could only fire a single shot at 12"), and Heavy Weapons generally couldn't fire at all if they moved. It also used to be that vehicles could only fire all of their weapons if they remained stationary, just 1 if they moved 6" and none at all if they moved more. Now, though, Rapid Fire weapons can fire to full effect regardless of whether the model moved, and moving with a Heavy Weapon imposes a meagre -1 penalty on the shooter (and many units - including basic heavy-weapon infantry like Havocs - ignore even that pitiful penalty). Vehicles, meanwhile, can move their maximum speed and still fire all their weapons.
- Then we've got the cover mechanics, which might as well not exist. Shooting through units no longer imposes any penalties whatsoever. Nor does shooting through walls or shooting at units that are out of LoS.
The upshot is that it's much, much easier to get units into effective range on turn 1 than it was in past editions. There are more and greater long-range weapons, many units can move further, there are fewer penalties for moving, it's much harder for defenders to gain meaningful cover, and sniping non-character assets is incredibly easy.
And this is before we even get into the removal of Night Fighting rules, general increases in damage for long-range weapons, auras, stratagems (especially ones that allow a unit to fire twice) etc.
Very true - 30k still active today really highlights these differences imo and it doesn't even have the variety that 40k used to do since 80% of the field is some flavor of Marines.
30k has exactly the same problem so I haven't a clue what you're going on about.
Slayer - do you play 30k?
VERY unlikely you lose a Knight turn 1 at 2k points in 30k. 30k has nice anti-Marine weaponry like Phosphex that makes power armor a risk - but the game isn't only Marines anymore so that's not always a problem.
Things are allowed to die turn 1. "The exact same problem" of losing most your strength turn? nah. Not at all. There's a reason the Land Raider is one of the most played units in the game, that alone should tell you the difference between 30k and 40k.
Don't forget that all the legions actually have pretty good rules, and that they're actually drawbacks tied into rules in order to give some balance.
I actually have played 30k thank you very much, with both Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. LOL Land Raiders are not that heavily picked. I've seen the Spartan sometimes but the Land Raider no, all for the same reason as they weren't picked in 6th and 7th.
Can't speak for Nitro Zeus, but I was referring to how I think the way the legions are handled and the fact that good rules/chapter tactics (basically) come with drawbacks instead of just advantages is better to what they've done in 8th edition, not your personal experience.
2020/03/30 16:51:09
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
i think we can do without the digs at other posters and questions about their knowledge and/or prowess.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2020/03/30 20:14:12
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
I've not played 30k (I've at various times thought about building armies - but it seemed an expense too far) - but I'd have thought the balance is that the bulk of lists are pulling from the same codex. This doesn't stop you getting an overpowered chapter tactic, or Primarch or 2~ unique units, but if something generic is overpowered everyone can just jump on it. (Duel plas Moritat for a while before it was nerfed? Its been a long time, I could be wrong.)
In practice most people who do 30k seem to be doing it more for the love of the hobby (and an exhibition of often great painting/conversion skills) - so there is less meta chasing anyway.
There would still be a tier list, but if 90% of players played Codex Space Marines and supplements, and GW tweaked a few things each year, the game would be almost certainly be more balanced.
Anyway! For Orks - I don't think Pampreen's comments on Ghaz are anything everyone else hasn't already said - and I'm not convinced what he does say is an endorsement.
Perhaps from my perspective the more interesting thing in the article is a grot army - because I think thats what a lot of players have wanted, even if in a not terribly competitive sense. I'm not... convinced however by 6 man Kan squads thouhg. Losing models to morale feels bad. Really though I think this was more a musing on the theme rather than tailored to perfection. You are making small arms largely a waste of time due to only giving them grots to shoot at.
2020/03/30 21:39:45
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
I'd like to point out that Nick isn't actually someone who actually knows his way around orks. When the codex dropped, he had tons of articles and posts about how orks were by far the most powerful codex and proclaimed that certain units were hidden gems just waiting to be found.
He never got orks to work, almost completely dropping from the radar while he played them. Some of the people you called "casuals" just a few pages back have more top placements in GTs with orks than Nick does. Only when he switched to GSC he started placing well again.
He is a great player, but not someone you should listen to when it comes to orks.
The thing is, many people apply their knowledge from their army to orks. Eldar, tau, necrons, guard and the entire marines rainbow all work kind of similar and follow certain patterns. If you try to apply those patterns to orks, you will fall flat on your face. However, this has never stopped those people from doing so when theorycrafting - see my signature for an example. There also is Reece infamous review of the orks codex, claiming the stompa to be one of the best units in the game and that melee gretchin are the best troops in the game.
I've joined dakka over nine years ago, and the pattern has always been the same. Orks get something and half the forum evaluates it in the context of their army and claim how OP it is, ignoring the context of a codex which doesn't have what the vast majority of other armies take as given.
There also is another thing: Just like real orks, the ork community here on dakka rarely agrees on anything. If all ork players tell you a unit is bad, the chances of it being good anyways is basically zero. From all the releases I experienced here on dakka, the only models which got an as unified opinion out of our ork community was the mekboy workshop and the squigbuggy.
Orks would be a great army if they had infinity CP or some of their strats were just inherent abilities on those units instead. All my games against Orks after the codex dropped largely end the same. The ork army is scary turn 1 and turn 2 but then on turn 3 the ork player runs out of CP and then loses all momentum.
For the record I think the new gaz is bad personally. If he was a SM model I wouldn't take him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/30 21:41:52
2020/03/30 22:21:39
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: But... you made a big deal about "Aha i know someone who works at nintendo!" and went out your way to mock my credibility. It doesn't matter what my stance is. I'm confirming that the statements I made about how top Ork players feel, were in fact, coming from a place of knowledge.
Also, my stance does not mirror your own. I don't think he's this excellent model anymore, because 285 is just a bit too costly to call it that. I also don't think he's "garbage" or useless however.
Pampreen is a proven amazing Ork player who has seen better results than any other player with this dex. You're joking to dismiss his opinion because he picked up Iron Hands like 90% of the rest of the meta lol. I didn't say anything about his opinion being the gospel, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm the one who said you're free to disagree with anything you like. But you posited that all "competitive players" are agreeing with you, and that's simply not the case.
Here's from Nick Nanavati himself about Ghaz:
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
You are no more credible because you found a single article from a single (ex)competitive Ork player saying that Ghaz MAYBE has potential. That is almost as vague as my horoscope for today ('someone at work might like you', if you're interested). I have already provided one from another player who was the second or third highest ranking Ork at the LVO this year refuting the claim that Ghaz has any competitive play. So I guess we're 1 for 1 on that front?
You've been told this repeatedly so I doubt it's going to sink in this time but let's give it one more go; Ghaz is garbage in the context of the Ork army because there is nothing he can do that a Warboss on Bike can't do for better and cheaper, excluding his 4 wounds a phase gimmick (and it is a gimmick). I can't say it any more succinctly or clearer than that. If you have units A and B and unit A can do everything unit B can but for half the price, why are you ever taking unit B, regardless of how good it is compared to other units from other codexes? Ghaz is unit B.
Now, if you believe that the 4 wounds a phase ability is worth roughly 175 extra points, a quarter of the movement speed and the almost necessity to take a Goff detachment - be my guest and go for it man. Don't let me stand in the way of creativity. I would be very, very surprised however. It's a shame that the competitive circuit is dead at the minute and we can't put this meme-worthy claim to bed. Likely by the time tournaments start again proper people will have forgotten this topic ever existed or there'll be other releases that evolve the meta before Ghaz even gets a run.
Out of interest just how much do you think Ghaz should cost? Since he is "just a bit too costly"?
Also I should add - if the meta significantly changes, if we see more Knights or other superheavy models much more frequently for example, of course Ghaz may have a place. In the meta as it was before Coronavirus hit he doesn't really have a chance of sneaking into a competitive list (IMO).
I should add again - we've seen this time and time again with Ork units, I recall a number of posters claiming that Death Skulls Shokkjump Dragsters were 'broken good' right as the Ork codex dropped. That we'd see entire armies of them on the competitive scene everywhere. Surprise surprise it didn't happen. This is one of those moments.
2020/03/31 00:29:09
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
My personal favorite will always be Reece saying the Stompa would be amazing and half of Dakkadakka lost their marbles about the OP stompa, then when it got buffed with more dakka the same thing happened, and just recently we had it drop by like 50pts and people were upset that it was going to be too good now. Surprising not a single ork player...no, not it isn't competitive at all.
Can't remember who said it, but they were spot on, when a player with a different main army sees an Ork unit they view it in the mindset of their chosen army and think of all the shenanigans they could do with it. I mean, right now there are a TON of units from other armies I would love in my codex, but I know that for the most part, they are a completely different unit when placed in the ork codex.
So, as of this post i have tried out Ghaz a few times (4 times total using my old model) against my current narrative campaign army he has yet to live past turn 2 and so far as been nothing more then a distraction unit...and not even a very good one. I have Smasha Mek Gunz in my army and so far it takes about 2 mek gunz to dish out 4 wounds to him. Twice I managed it with the 1st gun mostly due to lucky roles. So turn 1 I do 4 damage with just Mek gunz. Turn 2 i repeat and do 4 more damage and finish him with scrapjets bum rushing him and dealing mortal wounds and if necessary CC wounds. If my narrative campaign army can beat Ghaz in 2 turns or less I don't see how meta lists would have any trouble at all.
My personal favorite will always be Reece saying the Stompa would be amazing and half of Dakkadakka lost their marbles about the OP stompa, then when it got buffed with more dakka the same thing happened, and just recently we had it drop by like 50pts and people were upset that it was going to be too good now. Surprising not a single ork player...no, not it isn't competitive at all.
the "stompa is OP now" thread when it was dropped 50 points was VERY much tongue in cheek.
as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/03/31 01:30:06
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
My personal favorite will always be Reece saying the Stompa would be amazing and half of Dakkadakka lost their marbles about the OP stompa, then when it got buffed with more dakka the same thing happened, and just recently we had it drop by like 50pts and people were upset that it was going to be too good now. Surprising not a single ork player...no, not it isn't competitive at all.
the "stompa is OP now" thread when it was dropped 50 points was VERY much tongue in cheek.
as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
What he needs is the infantry keyword.
2020/03/31 05:40:49
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
BrianDavion wrote: as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
What he needs is the ability to advance and charge. Without that he is too slow to do anything until the point costs drop to a point where he is too durable for what you pay.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/03/31 12:53:05
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
My personal favorite will always be Reece saying the Stompa would be amazing and half of Dakkadakka lost their marbles about the OP stompa, then when it got buffed with more dakka the same thing happened, and just recently we had it drop by like 50pts and people were upset that it was going to be too good now. Surprising not a single ork player...no, not it isn't competitive at all.
the "stompa is OP now" thread when it was dropped 50 points was VERY much tongue in cheek.
as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
LMAO, I started the thread I am aware my own intent was tongue in cheek, but several posters were actually serious which is kind of sad in a way
You are no more credible because you found a single article from a single (ex)competitive Ork player saying that Ghaz MAYBE has potential. That is almost as vague as my horoscope for today ('someone at work might like you', if you're interested).
You LITERALLY called me out for saying that the best Ork player I know feels this way, and called it a completely non-credible statement. So, now that 2019's #1 Ork player ITC and the person who has seen the most success with this dex by a MASSIVE margin released the article, I mention this was who I was referring to, and you act like this was a completely unreasonable statement. Let's be real - there is no answer that would have satisfied you here.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You've been told this repeatedly so I doubt it's going to sink in this time but let's give it one more go; Ghaz is garbage in the context of the Ork army because there is nothing he can do that a Warboss on Bike can't do for better and cheaper, excluding his 4 wounds a phase gimmick (and it is a gimmick). I can't say it any more succinctly or clearer than that. If you have units A and B and unit A can do everything unit B can but for half the price, why are you ever taking unit B, regardless of how good it is compared to other units from other codexes? Ghaz is unit B.
Oh the irony. Considering I said, and I quote, "I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss.", perhaps its you who should take a step back and try to let someone else's opinion sink in, considering this entire rant was literally already acknowledged in my opening statement on the unit. I think the Warboss is better. I don't think Ghaz is some amazing unit. What are you actually arguing about here?
You are way too aggressively overconfident and certain in your conviction that what you say just HAS to be said, for someone who doesn't really have an argument against me here other than "REEEEEE he mentioned that someone else said my Orks aren't trash!". Take a step back and look at what you're actually arguing at this point.
BrianDavion wrote: as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
What he needs is the ability to advance and charge. Without that he is too slow to do anything until the point costs drop to a point where he is too durable for what you pay.
Are you just going to ignore my last post? I know you saw it, you've responded to every other post I've made in this thread even though none were directed at you. So this one spoken right to you - again, because I'm genuinely curious - name me one person I called casual who has a better tournament placings with Orks than Nick, as you've claimed.
Or did you just think it would sound good to say that and that nobody would check you on that?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/01 11:52:38
2020/04/01 12:01:34
Subject: Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
Is that the guy who also claimed stompas would be stupidly broken when codex drops? If guy is same(name seems familiar) then...well he might be top player with imperial/eldar soup but not with orks.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/04/01 12:10:25
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
BrianDavion wrote: as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take
What he needs is the ability to advance and charge. Without that he is too slow to do anything until the point costs drop to a point where he is too durable for what you pay.
But if he's still too slow does it really matter if he's too durable for his points?
2020/04/01 12:38:06
Subject: Re:Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.
"I think he's not an auto include by any stretch, but he is very good. His rule opens up a lot of play that I think has hidden value people may not see off the cusp. Though 285 is a lot no matter how you slice it."
So yeah I was definitely right about some of the best players feeling this way, and that's okay to recognise. You can just disagree with them They are also humans.
Is that the guy who also claimed stompas would be stupidly broken when codex drops? If guy is same(name seems familiar) then...well he might be top player with imperial/eldar soup but not with orks.
Yes.
Everyone to have an opinion ever about Ghaz that you disagree with, has to also be attributed as unironically calling the stompa OP and then promptly dismissed, thanks to that one thread made on Dakka, that was totally-definitely not satire or anything.
Or, perhaps there's another reason his name might be familiar. Can't possibly think what that might be though.
They are also humans.
I am aware my own intent was tongue in cheek, but several posters were actually serious which is kind of sad in a way 