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Veermyn info should be awaiting us North American customers come morning :-). They've added a pile of pledges in the last six hours.

Veer-Myn are unlocked now, so we should see some more details for them and at least I know 1 army I take for sure

what I don't know yet is if I should go for the large terrain set or not
the single set should be enough combined with everything I already own, yet the XL set is not just multiple of the small ones but also lists other parts like streets and I don't own any plastic streets sets for now (and 10mm scaled roads would work for Battletech as well)

I really want to back this but I'm struggling with the value proposition to be honest. Lieutenant pledge (which is as good as a "two player starter set" proxyt that they have and what I'd go for) is about 220AUD delivered on current exchange rates. I know it's a lot of stuff for the price, and better value than LI. I know that the core armies are basically enough for a full army. What I'm struggling is the internal value balance with other Mantic products. I could get a Deadzone or Firefight starter set for about 150AUD delivered from an Australian retailer. The retail price they're listing (160GBP) converts to about the same as the LI starter set here. Again, I know that there's more stuff than in LI and I have no doubt the game itself will be better... I just kind of expect more of a differential compared to a GW product from Mantic. Going back to the Firefight example, from the same retailer the Firefight starter sets are over 100AUD cheaper than the 40k Ultimate Starter Set (140 to 255).

If nothing else, this Kickstarter has me wanting to try out Firefight though because that is incredible value. Would love to be convinced I'm wrong by you folks.

Looks like retail will be:

£60 army sets
£30 rulebook + counters pack
£10 dice

If they do a 2-player starter set at retail it probably won't be full armies but around 800-1000 points per faction, same as the KoW and firefight starters at a similar price point to the lieutenant pledge.

Backing the KS gets you double the minis, that's basically the offering.

Deadzone and firefight are both awesome though, I'd recommend them both and play one or the other every week.

I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.

Just dont capture my imagination at all.

Good jump in the total yesterday and the addition of MSRPs to the campaign pledge is a good change - more likely to get a healthier late campaign push now I think but still not going to reach dizzying heights.

It looks like it has now reached the Veer-myn level? A nice bump in the overall total, although the total number of backers has not gone up massively.

Quite interesting that there were a massive number of people 'following' the KS (I think about 6000+) but only about 1300 have translated into actual backers. Mantic need to find some way of getting to those other 4500 or so!

witchhammer92 wrote:
If nothing else, this Kickstarter has me wanting to try out Firefight though because that is incredible value. Would love to be convinced I'm wrong by you folks.

Comparing it first to KoW because there I have the most experience with boxes to list and depending on the faction and list you need a single Mega Army up to Mega Army+Army, so 150-250€, for a 2000 points lists (if you use Mantic models only), while with a 2 player starter you need 2 as the set has the equivalent of an Army Set per faction

For Firefight it is similar though the Army Set combined with a Deadzone Set or single boxes gets you the 1000-1250 points and you add in the vehicles, were the 2 player set gets you more infantry but missing the vehicles compared to the army sets, and again we look at 150-250€ for 2k

Army Sets are 75GPB, Mega Army Set 115 GBP


Comparing this to Warpath KS, the MSRP given for the Pledges is the combined value of the single items, not the selling price of the "pledges or what the box sets might be
Like a Sergeant Pledge with Core Army + Rules + Dice is 65 combined, the Pledge discount is 59 while MSRP is listed as 100 GBP
the FF Rules are 30 and Dice 10, so we can estimate the Army Set at 60GBP MSRP which would than be cheaper than FireFight or Kings of War
Given that the specialist models are not in the core sets and resin being more expensive those might be 75, the Titans 25 and the combined value is 160 which would translate to 200€ and the full army therefore being in a similar range as KoW and FF.

that said, I expect that there will be a dedicated 2 player set on release around 100€ that has 3 frames per faction instead of the 6
as this would match the Promo Pics we have seen of the Armies for now which had the models from half a core army set
Like those are the pics going around in several articles with Plague and Enforcers and both are 1/2 core army box, so I guess this will be the content of the actual 2 player set:



Combaring this to Legion Imperialis is difficult as the boxes are different with the 2 player set having Titans that increase the value but are less useful for buying it more often while the actual content of the EWP 2 player set is pure speculation from me

but we have a Core Army Set that will be ~75€ and a Reinforcment Box at ~90€, both combined for ~165€ give 2500 points or 2000 with options with the full game being tested at 2k-2,5k
Taking the LI sets, each one is 40€ and a single Infantry Box + Tank Company Box sets you for the same 80€ but only has ~500 points with the full game being said to be 3k points (yet people already set for 1500 points as otherwise the tables are too crowded)
but because GW games work best by going with a 2 player set, we add half of one for 77€ as core which gives us 942 points + Titan for 160€, which is either 1/2 of the suggested size

same price but one games gives more models than you need to play the full game so you have options and can make different lists, while the other games has not enough models and no options for variations either

VAYASEN wrote:
I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.
Just dont capture my imagination at all.

as this is a classic Kickstarter, non of those designs are final and you can still make suggestions or call for something different
not like the design of the Enforcer tanks was already changed a little bit and suggestions for the Plague artillery take

one problem of the tank design currently is that Mantic aims for the lowest amount of parts possible for a better gaming experience (instead of letting people build scale models) and they want a certain number of them per sprue and don't know how much space will be available until after the tooling started
currently the test models are slightly smaller and out of scale to be save and will be adapted of more spure space is available

another point is that tanks are without bases as by player request they have written the rules so that tanks don't need them (unlike in the very first draft) and the antigrav tanks look odd without

 kodos wrote:

what I don't know yet is if I should go for the large terrain set or not
the single set should be enough combined with everything I already own, yet the XL set is not just multiple of the small ones but also lists other parts like streets and I don't own any plastic streets sets for now (and 10mm scaled roads would work for Battletech as well)

Building roads out of 50mm tiles sounds like pure pain to me.

PS: for something different

it was mentioned that the small terrain set would be enough for 4x4 yet the XL Set doubles the regular one and adds Roadway, Tower and Industrial frames for a 100

as it looks to be completely modular this would be a good option for LI players as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Building roads out of 50mm tiles sounds like pure pain to me.

not like we have done something like this with hexes for battletech in the past

VAYASEN wrote:
I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.

Just dont capture my imagination at all.

Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry.

Until Marauders are revealed, I'm not interested. On top of that I am not waiting a year.

SU-152 wrote:

VAYASEN wrote:
I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.

Just dont capture my imagination at all.

Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry.

Until Marauders are revealed, I'm not interested. On top of that I am not waiting a year.

GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist.
Also, many GW fans will also be waiting that one year just for their next codex so they can play their army in the latest edition with the latest rules, only for them to be out of date in less than a year.

Me? I'll enjoy Warpath when it comes out, except for naff eyesight and the inability to paint 28mm, never mind 10mm.

SU-152 wrote:
Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry

what is wrong with the Vanguard Miniatures tanks?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

VAYASEN wrote:
I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.

Just dont capture my imagination at all.

Agreed. It seem like the same that happens with Vanguard miniatures and Defeat in Detalis. Awful vehicle designs but good infantry.

Until Marauders are revealed, I'm not interested. On top of that I am not waiting a year.

GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist.
Also, many GW fans will also be waiting that one year just for their next codex so they can play their army in the latest edition with the latest rules, only for them to be out of date in less than a year.

Me? I'll enjoy Warpath when it comes out, except for naff eyesight and the inability to paint 28mm, never mind 10mm.

I like a lot of different wargames, played a lot of SW legion and others and yes, 40k and also bought into LI. I am a wargame fan and love epic scale....im not trying to defend GW or anything, just my honest opinion, having looked at Warpath(being interested in epic scale games) I personally thought the vehicles looked crud.

I dont know what those Nameless are, but I think I want them? And hell yeah, Veer-myn unlocked, guess that means I'm pledging in!

 Eilif wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
sorry for the obvious question but I'm going crazy trying to find the scale for this game. Did mantic go 10mm or 15mm?

It's a very good question. As Mantic and others have said , it's a 10mm game, but they really should be more clear in the KS about it. Personally I think it's a bit shady to call it "epic scale" in the KS tagline, when a huge number of gamers will assume that means the 6-8mm scale of Game's Workshop's "Epic" family of games. 8 to 10mm might not sound like much, but it's a MASSIVE difference in scale when the miniatures are compared.

Mantic's statement at https://www.manticgames.com/news/epic-warpath-designing-the-miniatures-for-an-epic-scaled-wargame/ is

"...our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain."

Additionally , I assume most folks know this, but 10mm is 1/160 Scale, which is also "N Scale" for model railroading which opens up alot of options for structure kits. It also has lots of potential combinations with 1/144 (11mm) scale which can be useful as 1/144 scale is fairly common in plastic model kits.

The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues - they were actually pretty clear on that point. They hope that they can scale up the vehicles once they go towards final production but it doesn't sound like they have any intention of actually getting them to match the infantry scale, only to get the scale closer.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I dont know what those Nameless are, but I think I want them?

They're a little after my time and the recent releases are more like, Cthulhu Crabs or something, but I think early concepts were colonies of aquatic worms assembled into bipedal forms. They're fairly alien in mindset but not as much as the bug people (Z'zor)

VAYASEN wrote:
I just cant get excited for this, personally think the vehicles look terrible.

Just dont capture my imagination at all.

There's a lot not to love about Mantic's sculpts. Personally I loathe the little ears on the robot elves, it makes them look way too campy. I don't mind the GCPS vehicles though, aside from the avataresque walker.

That said I'm in for the Dwarves, and possibly either the Rats or the Orcs (if they get unlocked) or maybe the Nameless (if THEY get unlocked).

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

GW fans? I suppose it's hard to get over the fact that in a world with guns so powerful they can melt a tank but medieval armoured knights run around with chainswords and the whole of humanity is entrenched in a pseudo gothic catholic religion protected by world war one tanks, that other styles of sci-fi can exist.

There's a difference between "other styles of sci-fi" and terrible designs. Take the Enforcers tanks for instance, I'm not sure what alterations they've made but they still look terrible. The core problem with them, at least for me, is that you have the main body of the tank then a tiny turret that sticks up to almost double the height of the base on a spindly little pole at the back which has two underwhelming little guns on it. It looks top-heavy and kind of ridiculous. This poor design extends to a lot of other elements in all the armies. If you want to compare it to "other styles of sci-fi" I think it shows the difference it makes when you have a genuinely talented group of artists with a real vision behind the artwork and designs of your universe, vs whatever Mantic has. I'm loathe to blame the artists behind the design of the sculpts, however, because with the vast number of bad, cartoonish designs across so many of their products and ranges this has to be coming from someone in management who can't let go of a particular style choice.

When the most consistent form of feedback from your potential customers is that your sculpts look bad then you really need to go back to the drawing board and re-assess your entire process. I'm sure there are more people like me who really want to love Mantics products but are put off by the terrible and cartoonish sculpts and artwork. The fluff and the imagery are really the only thing that have kept me away from buying in to things like Firefight and Vanguard.

Honestly guys, kill your darlings, your products will be better for it.

Couldn't agree more about those Enforcer tanks. So tiny, topheavy and ridiculous looking. Lower them, widen them, and give them sleek, aggressive looking weapons - not some fragile weird cowlick thing atop a pyramid. Just take a look at the Victor MkIII tank in the Enforcer reinforcement pack. Already that's a giant improvement (please don't make it tiny Mantic!)

I remain impressed at the wrong direction Mantic still continues to sometimes take in the art and modeling direction...!

But the game looks fun, and I've jumped in for four armies. I've already upped my pledge amount (doin' my part, boys! let's go!) to cover reinforcement boxes and probably terrain too.

I know some complain at this, but I really think they missed the boat not adding some kickstarter exclusive stuff to get folks more excited about pledging. Not exclusive models or things - but like some kickstarter dice (that aren't those boring white dice, enough of those already!) or some upgraded acrylic tokens (hopefully not like the ones that were offered for Firefight which were cheap and crummy). Kickstarter psychology is real man, take advantage of our weak, human foibles!

I'm glad they've listed the suggested retail prices to get folks more excited about "saving money" with this, but I sure wish they were able to add more value to the KS.

And yea... All the superheavies are leaving me cold. None of those for me, thanks.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The reason they aren't "being more clear" is because its not a 10mm game, the infantry are 10mm but the vehicles are at a smaller scale to fit on the sprues.

That's a weird and disappointing choice.

I actually really like the designs for the Enforcer vehicles, and the lack of bases on the vehicles can be fixed easily enough (as at this scale having the vehicles unbased looks even more out of kilter than it does at 28mm, due to the proportionately thicker bases)... but having the vehicles in a different scale to the infantry makes it much less interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
Quite interesting that there were a massive number of people 'following' the KS (I think about 6000+) but only about 1300 have translated into actual backers. Mantic need to find some way of getting to those other 4500 or so!

I suspect a number of those will be waiting on specific faction unlocks.

Others will have been following just to see how the project shakes out and not excited enough about what's offered to jump in. They're unlikely to translate many of those follows into pledges without a considerable value add.

I personally didn't see that it wasn't releasing until 2025. That, combined with the fairly meh vehicles and finding out they aren't in scale to each other has pretty much turned me off this. I MIGHT consider the vermyn as a unique force once they show us some of the sculpts. I wanted to fall in love with the FF but the super heavy looks daf and so do the tanks with their huge flat faced triangle guns.

I want to want this. Not sure it'll happen for me though as it isn't THAT cheap. If I want to print my own reinforcements/super heavies and settle for a single core box per force for 2 forces I'm looking at $225ish pre-shipping. I'd have to have 2 armies cause likely no one is plaything this around me without me getting it going. That's rough when I'm likely to see the same value/size from Warcradle's Armored Clash here in the next couple of months. And more likely to find opponents.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I personally didn't see that it wasn't releasing until 2025.

Well, I'd like to point out that it's already 2024 right now, as hard as that is to accept

By March 2025 Armoured Clash will have the same number of factions out and possibly fewer units per faction as Epic Warpath, they'll just start trickling out sooner.

Of course, AC will have a clear, unified art direction and top tier sculpting. Certainly no Evil Rhinoceroses for their superheavies.

all of those problems have easy solutions, the very same ones that LI or NetEpic has, if you don't like the design of certain models and/or want to have them bigger/smaller, you print your own or buy ones that you like

never heard anyone saying that they won't play a GW game because they don't like the tank design from 1 faction or because the models are not in scale to each other, but when people don't like models they replace it instead of playing something else (would have been interesting of everyone who did not liked the Taurox would have stopped playing 40k, or people would not go back to TOW because the different units from a single faction are all of a different scale)
technically GW games do not have scale at all but are a mix of everything from 1/56 up to 1/35 with no specific design line except bigger is better and the main difference between them is one company being honest and open about it while the other does not mention the scale at all

so it is a little difficult for me when people have no problem doing some extra work or replace models on a high priced premium product that has the models as they main selling point, but on a product focused on gaming replacing the models is a problem

 Zethnar wrote:
I'm loathe to blame the artists behind the design of the sculpts, however, because with the vast number of bad, cartoonish designs across so many of their products and ranges this has to be coming from someone in management who can't let go of a particular style choice

given how large Mantic is, good chance you are talking about 1-2 people for the management here and one of them being Ronnie
for artists, Mantic hires freelancers for this and might be that the person who made the original concept and the one who needed to sculpt this for 10mm are not the same

for the overall design I see your points but don't agree to all of them (yes, the hull could be a little wider and less high but it also meant to be an APC hull which than would look off if it is lower) as like the tank design in general with a very narrow hull and a top heavy turret is something not unusual for modern concepts or scifi, specially in concepts featuring no classic recoil based guns but gun/missile pods without a manned turret on a universal hull
other point being the scale as there is a limit for the size to get the necessary stability so the guns need to be more bulky than they should be

taking this pic: https://www.manticgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/epic-warpath-vehicle-preview-1.webp
the artillery should be longer, like at least another wheel added and the gun smaller, while the Enforcer tank could be a little wider in the back (but in general looks fine to me) yet I don't know if the design is adjusted for sprue space or not and for me they don't look that bad that I would take less models for a larger hull

 Hulksmash wrote:

I want to want this. Not sure it'll happen for me though as it isn't THAT cheap. If I want to print my own reinforcements/super heavies and settle for a single core box per force for 2 forces I'm looking at $225ish pre-shipping. I'd have to have 2 armies cause likely no one is plaything this around me without me getting it going. That's rough when I'm likely to see the same value/size from Warcradle's Armored Clash here in the next couple of months. And more likely to find opponents.

I think your best option would be 2 STL packs and/or the rules, than you can print what you need and/or use the rules with models you like and I think the biggest selling point here are the rules and with 8 distinct factions that can go for everything

PS: and for Armoured Clash I hoped that it would be the same scale as Dystopian Wars like with Spartan to have one large combined game for sea, air and land but being 10mm I am less excited for it
but I also don't like most of the new things either despite being a fan of WWE and the old Spartan ships, the new ones is not really doing it for me (maybe one of the AC factions will do it but depends on when they non "common" ones come out)

 kodos wrote:
all of those problems have easy solutions, the very same ones that LI or NetEpic has, if you don't like the design of certain models and/or want to have them bigger/smaller, you print your own or buy ones that you like

If I'm buying plastic starter sets for a new game, the last thing I'm interested in doing is printing new versions of the models. I'm even less interested in messing about trying to print models at this scale. The entire attraction of this game for me is the plastic models.


Edit - The printing option is also irrelevant in this case, since the core armies aren't available as STLs, only the add-ons and super-heavies.

never heard anyone saying that they won't play a GW game because they don't like the tank design from 1 faction or because the models are not in scale to each other, but when people don't like models they replace it instead of playing something else (would have been interesting of everyone who did not liked the Taurox would have stopped playing 40k, or people would not go back to TOW because the different units from a single faction are all of a different scale)

There's degrees there. Sure, not liking one model might not be a deterrent in a large miniature range. Not liking a new model released for an army you already have would also generally not put you off playing that army. But the more of the range someone dislikes, the less likely they are going to be to buy into it from scratch... and if people are seeing enough of the models in this range that they think are sub-par, that's going to be a red-flag for the chances of the game taking off, which also makes it less appealing to buy into. A new game is not judged through the same lens as a game people are already playing.


Personally, I like the designs, but would prefer the vehicles to be in scale with the infantry, and it's making me think hard about whether I like the vehicles enough to overlook that.

Yeah, I also would like to see the vehicles to be in scale, as I in general like my models to be in scale within an army (a reason why I have problems with the GW designs)
But here I can live with the answer that they want to have a certain number per box (as enough models to play) and therefore they might be smaller (as not fixed yet, maybe being the size they have shown them but possible be larger with the actual models)

Yet this like opposite reply which I got from the LI communities when mentioned that the infantry looks bad or me don't liking it
"who cares about the new released plastic models when you can print them for cheap", keep the vehicles and just buy a 3D printer for the infantry being the first suggestion, as I don't have a resin printer

Same as "no one will see the difference in scale of models on the table" when talking about GW but somehow for every other game this is a problem
Not necessary Mantic here, recently got the same for TOW when suggesting to use Perry mixed with Victrix that those 2 lines are impossible to combine because of the different "scale" but that the Bretonnia Foot Knights being larger than the other models is super historical accurate for a medieval army
Same as less details and easy to build being a huge advantage for mass battle if GW is doing it, but lack of quality and bad design for everyone else doing mass battle games

I am just a little bit annoyed about those things in general at the moment (so sorry if I am overreacting here)

It's not ideal. But a 1500 pts army costs the same as a GW box of 6 tanks, so there's that.

And the doublethink kodos mentions is definitely an advantage only offered to GW and no one else.

Kodos I will say I have heard *a lot* of people say they won't buy into Legions because of the lack of Xenos factions, which is kind of the same thing. I guess something takes your fancy or it doesn't, so much of the appeal of wargaming is the aesthetics of a game.

As for the scaling issues of vehicles, I assume no-one saying that ever played the first few editions of Epic - the scaling of the vehicles (particularly rhinos and battle wagons) was much more out of sync than what we have seen here so far, although we all still loved it!

I'm honestly liking most of what I'm seeing, so for the moment I'm at the "4 armies" level.

I'm liking what I see as well and I'm in for the 4 armies. The only thing I'm annoyed about is my favourite Mantic model, the Strider. It's going to be in plastic on the plague sprue, but the Enforcers are going to end up with a resin one.

As for the comments. The scale isn't that far out. No more than a Rhino fitting Space Marines in. The irritating thing is that it's something the GW cultists and Mantic haters will use forever as a reason that Warpath is 'crap'.

I'm going to stick with 2 armies because I'll never paint 4 but might stump up for some resin reinforcements (much as I hate working with resin) depending on how it's looking on the last day of the campaign...

That thing about doing both resin and plastic striders is a bit nuts, surely they haven't thought that through properly?

at least from the comments it was the decision on what goes into the core and they decided to add Jetbikes for Enforcers instead of having the Strider in both