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As long as it's on a similar quality to what you would get out of the PA books then I don't mind. I would actually prefer just a simple high quality PDF as that would be far easier imo.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, it looks like you're a chaos player, so would you suggest putting Thousand Sons and Death Guard back into CSM?

Absolutely. Why wouldn't I? There are zero benefits to a faction having its own codex as opposed to being a section in someone elses.

I don't even play marines, but this game would be stupid boring if there was only one flavour.

In what way is rolling the rules of a sub-faction into that of its parent-faction making everything "only one flavor"?

And yeah I am a Chaos player. You know what else I play? Blood Angels. And my first army? Black Templars, with their 4th edition codex.

Honestly the DG and TS are prime exemples off subfactions that could've been handled with an A4 page which describes their limits, abilities and changes aswell as access to units.
Infact it would've been better then the hodgepodge we got now, and i know alot of DG players that have lovingly converted units that they now are not allowed to field anymore even though they are fluffy for DG (Havocs? Anyone? The infantry legion doesn't believe in fire support squads anymore?)

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, it looks like you're a chaos player, so would you suggest putting Thousand Sons and Death Guard back into CSM?

Absolutely. Why wouldn't I? There are zero benefits to a faction having its own codex as opposed to being a section in someone elses.

I don't even play marines, but this game would be stupid boring if there was only one flavour.

In what way is rolling the rules of a sub-faction into that of its parent-faction making everything "only one flavor"?

And yeah I am a Chaos player. You know what else I play? Blood Angels. And my first army? Black Templars, with their 4th edition codex.

Honestly the DG and TS are prime exemples off subfactions that could've been handled with an A4 page which describes their limits, abilities and changes aswell as access to units.
Infact it would've been better then the hodgepodge we got now, and i know alot of DG players that have lovingly converted units that they now are not allowed to field anymore even though they are fluffy for DG (Havocs? Anyone? The infantry legion doesn't believe in fire support squads anymore?)

The 3.5 codex covered all the legions better than the current three, in less pages than the current csm codex.

Gw's current codex design philosophy is based on one thing: $$$

PA to my mind has been bad because its essentially just DLC rules content with massively variable relevance. Dark Eldar now can almost just ignore the whole thing. For GK its mandatory to be meta relevant. Other factions are paying for maybe 1-2 spells, two unit buffs and a few auto-use stratagems. Its bloat that could have gone into the relevant 8.5 Codex.

I guess they would argue the fluff - but they could all have been in one book frankly. Or all in White Dwarf. Businesses do need to sell you stuff, but this system isn't good because its not really optional.

I'm not hugely convinced GW releases stuff based on market research. Its based on internal whim/desire/inspiration. I'd argue Harlequins have sold badly due to poor rules when run mono and the mass duplication of models. Same reason you dont see that many mono Tempestus armies out there.

I'm a little sad that Harlequins won't be in the book with Stern, but I'm actually pretty hopeful about this approach. It's an opportunity to help these armies outside of the confines of PA, which they seem to need to be brought back into working order.

That's really the only reason I can see for not putting them in this book.

I'd point out that Age of Sigmar has several armies which have niche forces within single Battletomes and it works out really well in general. Instead of having lots of books, you've got one book that covers a whole range of armies that all share a similar core theme and appeal.

Furthermore it simplifies bringing in allies and such from the core army. If Harlequins go back to being a sub-army within Craftworld Codex then instead of having to buy both to bring a few Craftworld with your Harlequins, you can just buy one book and bring them along.

It streamlines the publications and even if it means that Harlequins don't get a big book with a huge army range of their own; at least they aren't left out to dry with small niche army range for years.



It's not an overall bad thing, its a far cry from being ended and removed. It also means that there's always potential for them to move-out again in the future. Perhaps at a time when GW has updated the Craftworld and Dark Eldar ranges to purge them of finecast and added a few new things here and there.

MistaGav wrote:
As long as it's on a similar quality to what you would get out of the PA books then I don't mind. I would actually prefer just a simple high quality PDF as that would be far easier imo.

why you hate the pointy ears so bad (joking but the PA book was very mehhh with a few gems)

I suspect the Harle thing will be kind of samey with some mix / match traits of which maybe 3 or 4 might be on par with fusion gangsta drive by or very angry clowns what do more hitting

but seems more reasonable than taking up book space for a faction with only 8 (?) units

Don't really follow SM stuff but I get the feeling the DW just got power creeped by other marines as they seemed to doing okay(ish) prior to the newer books

 morganfreeman wrote:

Here here.

We'd be better off going back to the slim half-priced codex' for off-shoots again. Where they say stuff like "Tactical squad: Refer to Codex Space Marines" for all of the cross-over, and have some special rules / a few unique squads in them.

There's no need to make stuff like Deathwatch, Storm Troopers, or Blood Angels their own flippin' codex... Also, notice how it's almost entirely Imperium, specifically Marines, who get this stuff?

Yeah.

It helps to know that Stormtroopers literally had their own codex last edition and lost it with 8th. And even then, that codex was half-assed because they needed to jam that new plastic Commissar model down our throats.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolvesmight be getting supplement sized books moving forward whenever we see the rumored 8.5 edition finally hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
I'd point out that Age of Sigmar has several armies which have niche forces within single Battletomes and it works out really well in general. Instead of having lots of books, you've got one book that covers a whole range of armies that all share a similar core theme and appeal.

Sorry, but no. The biggest example of this is Cities of Sigmar and that book is not great for anything remotely similar to what you're describing.

It certainly allowed for them to publish the armies that didn't have books in one go for Order, but it did not do anything worthwhile for making them playable.

Age of Sigmar is also chopping and changing how it does factions - they went from all inclusive books to smaller faction books

Grand Alliance of Death had Legions of Nagash and now has Nighthaunts and Flesh Eater Courts as well as the new Death faction - still waiting for Soulblight

However most of these are very different and huge factions.

Marines - EVERY chapter has unique elements, there is absolutely no reason why the Angels and the Wolves have to have seperate codexes and can not be catered for with at most a supplement - the same as ALL the other First Founding Chapters.

A negative obvious impact of the continuing Angels and Wolves Codexes was the the recent PA campaign which was clogged with reprinted datesheets with different (or not even different names) and which has likely resulted in the Deathwatch and Harlequins having to be relegated to a WD article and so little for other factions.

I don't see the advantage of supplements.

Sure you could make Dark Angels and Wolves supplements to a third generic marine book, but it's inconvenient to players having to use an extra book and inconvenient to store owners for the extra shelf space, etc..

Just re-print the part that would be in the "generic" non-supplement book for Dark Angels and Iron Hands and Space Wolves and Salamanders in each of their books and it's a win-win for everyone.

Honestly Yinnari and Primaris both strike me as management driven choices thrust upon the design teams in order to try and increase profits with reduced investment. In the case of Yinnari it was combining two ranges into one; in the case of Primaris it was, what seem sto me, to be the next generation of Marines simply being released as their own division alongside instead of simply replacing marines - as has been done in the past over the years. Marines ran with it and Primaris is now quite distinct in some forms. Eldar didn't really go anywhere because Craftworld and Dark both had old stuff that needed updating to really make a combined arms army lift off powerfully. Esp the Craftworld when a big core of its infantry is finecast.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
I'd point out that Age of Sigmar has several armies which have niche forces within single Battletomes and it works out really well in general. Instead of having lots of books, you've got one book that covers a whole range of armies that all share a similar core theme and appeal.

Sorry, but no. The biggest example of this is Cities of Sigmar and that book is not great for anything remotely similar to what you're describing.

It certainly allowed for them to publish the armies that didn't have books in one go for Order, but it did not do anything worthwhile for making them playable.

What about Gloomspite Gitz, Orruks, Skaven?

Or how about we wind back the clock to when Space Marines were in one book.

Just because niche armies are within the same book doesn't make them any better nor worse than if they have their own - its purely in the hands of whoever writes it.

Furthermore Harlequins use Craftworld stuff anyway. If they get a combined book it makes it easier to build either force and to combine the forces with all the rules in one place instead of spread over two books.

Ynnari had the big narrative advantage of making Eldar (not just Craftworlds) active participants in the actual 40K fluff.

The problem with Eldar was that their background was just so atrocious and irrelevant, largely stuck on "stuff that happened ages ago and now we're all sitting around in Craftworlds/Comorroagh/Webway and mope about the old days".

They were basically the origin-story-opening-scene-disposable for Slaanesh that somehow stuck around for the actual game, because it was a weak copy of the generic fantasy-elves clichee-lore of "the old, past-its-prime-race".

Ynnari actually give Eldar relevant background for engaging in the 40K setting and thus ironed out the by far weakest slice of the early-days 40K lore.

The only reason Harlies and DW are getting the WD treatment is because GW were going to do nothing, realised the community backlash would be horrendous and have now scrambled to offer something at least for them.

Why do I think this? GW have said that the Deathwatch rules are 'done' and will be released quickly while Harlequins didn't even get a hint of a release date. The Deathwatch rules will copy and paste other marine rules, more or less, so they should be easier to complete.

So I actually think this is a positive in a weird retrospect. GW have at least had the thought to do something for these factions, even if it is lacklustre and reeks of low effort, it is surely better than nothing.

I also agree with the general sentiment that there are far too many subfaction codexes and they are focused on too few factions. Where's the Kroot codex? The Grot Revolushun codex? Speed Freeks? GW need to stop doing 'Marine sub sub faction 339' as a codex or spread the love to factions other than Imperium and Chaos. It's breeding discontent.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The only reason Harlies and DW are getting the WD treatment is because GW were going to do nothing, realised the community backlash would be horrendous and have now scrambled to offer something at least for them.

Why do I think this? GW have said that the Deathwatch rules are 'done' and will be released quickly while Harlequins didn't even get a hint of a release date. The Deathwatch rules will copy and paste other marine rules, more or less, so they should be easier to complete.

So I actually think this is a positive in a weird retrospect. GW have at least had the thought to do something for these factions, even if it is lacklustre and reeks of low effort, it is surely better than nothing.

I also agree with the general sentiment that there are far too many subfaction codexes and they are focused on too few factions. Where's the Kroot codex? The Grot Revolushun codex? Speed Freeks? GW need to stop doing 'Marine sub sub faction 339' as a codex or spread the love to factions other than Imperium and Chaos. It's breeding discontent.

Sure.

But why include the Harlequin and DW symbols in the ("all factions get rules!!!") PA announcements back in August (?) (they weren't even among the symbols they initially missed, like Space Wolves). And if they knew (presumably back last summer) that they wouldn't include Harlequins and Deathwatch, why not say so?

What is the absolute idea-case scenario this could've gone for GW, even without Corona or anything?

Was it a good thing not everyone got stuff in Vigilus? No, But there never was the expectation either. While it sucked for Harlequins and Necrons and many other to sit out that campaign, at least it didn't necessarly generate that expectation that "everyone" would get their turn.

And, if by some marketing / website-people mistake, the "all factions will get something" was an honest mistake, wouldn't it make sense to clear that up ASAP, rather than wait 6-8 months?



Harlequins and DW getting rules in the White Dwarf isn't in itself a terrible thing. They'll probably better than "basically no rules" that Drukhari or GSC or some of the others stuck with. Hell, because they probably do them on the fly with little testing, there's a reasonable chance those rules will have some utterly bonkers combinations.

It's just the process that's puzzling.



Edit: First announcement graphic where GW actually forgot a bunch of factions such as Space Wolves, AdMech, etc.. (but did include Clowns and DW)

In the end, Angels don't need to be their own codex, Death Guard and Thousand Sons don't need to be their own codex, and the Inquisition + forces that have fought for them before (Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch) could've been one codex.

The Inquisition are not and never should have been "an army". They should have been a single frigging character, end of story.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Inquisition are not and never should have been "an army". They should have been a single frigging character, end of story.

It's a bit like when AoS had Skaven Eshin and Dark Elf Shadowblades in their own "armies" and the had perhaps one or two models each. Assassin "armies" don't work because by their very lore and nature they are small scale super elite often down to only one or two operatives or a small team designed for infiltration and specific action. Making them into "armies" within factions that already have armies tends to make them either daft or redundant because they already have an army, its the factions army

Of course if any race could make an army of assassin's its the Imperium But I do agree that just because they can make more books doesn't mean it works out well - sometimes ideas work best as niche.s

All those Xenos don't need their own book either. Just put Orks, Tau, Necrons, etc.. into an Enemies of the Imperium book and done.

True. They don't even need separate unit choices. Xeno trooper, xeno elite, xeno caster, xeno warleader, xeno specialist.
xeno heavy weapon unit, xeno assault weapon unit etc.

Oh, fellas, come on! We can get more reductionist than this! We get rid of the shooting and melee and psychic phases, and replace it with the damage phase, in which you roll a unit’s damage capacity range dice and deal damage to another unit on the board!

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, it looks like you're a chaos player, so would you suggest putting Thousand Sons and Death Guard back into CSM?

Absolutely. Why wouldn't I? There are zero benefits to a faction having its own codex as opposed to being a section in someone elses.

I don't even play marines, but this game would be stupid boring if there was only one flavour.

In what way is rolling the rules of a sub-faction into that of its parent-faction making everything "only one flavor"?

And yeah I am a Chaos player. You know what else I play? Blood Angels. And my first army? Black Templars, with their 4th edition codex.

Honestly the DG and TS are prime exemples off subfactions that could've been handled with an A4 page which describes their limits, abilities and changes aswell as access to units.
Infact it would've been better then the hodgepodge we got now, and i know alot of DG players that have lovingly converted units that they now are not allowed to field anymore even though they are fluffy for DG (Havocs? Anyone? The infantry legion doesn't believe in fire support squads anymore?)

The 3.5 codex covered all the legions better than the current three, in less pages than the current csm codex.

Gw's current codex design philosophy is based on one thing: $$$

To be more precise, the new design philosophy is based on one thing: This is a game played with Games Workshop models built out of Games Workshop parts.

I remember back in the 3rd edition era when there wasn't even an official model for the Defiler, and at best suggested collections of bits to use to build one. I think GW may have even had a contest concerning choosing those collections.

Huge sections of the 3.5 Chaos codex were like that, where the players were left on their own to figure out how to represent upgrades on the models. Between then and now, whether it's the result of "No model, no rules", "Making options equally accessible to new players and old players", or whatever, the authors of the Chaos books no longer get to say "The players can figure out how to model that. And the players can wade through several levels of redirection to figure out what the unit's options are."

The old codex format that books used during 3.5 was more space efficient compared to the modern codex layout, for units with a lot of options. But there's a reason why support software like Army Builder became wide spread back then.

Between 'A fixed limit on where a unit's options may be specified' and 'All options for a unit have to exist in manufacturing', that pretty much rules out the old 3.5 style codex, or even the original Realm of Chaos stuff.

At this point, the "Should Death Guard and Thousand Sons be in the CSM codex?" is a publishing issue: How many times do you want to buy the CSM codex?
Because you're looking at two choices:

1. GW publishes the CSM codex, the Death Guard codex, and the Thousand Sons codex.
2. GW publishes the CSM codex, CSM codex 2.1 adding Death Guard, and then CSM codex 2.2 adding Thousand Sons.
because the pragmatic corollary to "No model, no rules" is "New rules need to be published as new models come out" and putting model rules in codex shaped bundles works a lot better than the alternatives.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh, fellas, come on! We can get more reductionist than this! We get rid of the shooting and melee and psychic phases, and replace it with the damage phase, in which you roll a unit’s damage capacity range dice and deal damage to another unit on the board!

that would be stupid. But if xenos were reduced to one book, we wouldn't have to worry about eldar or orc balance. And GW could focus on getting more in depth with loyalist faction rules. Each WD could have a small list for something like a crusade army, that gives cool new rules for an army made out of specific black templars and sob units . Next month a hunter DA list. The a ad mecha explorator army that has different rules from regular ad mecha. GW could focus on the good stuff that people want, and not waste time on armies that aren't even human.

Dudeface wrote:
There is a very real chance they intended a further book that their printers in China can't complete or the delay from the lockdown in China pushes too far back. Given white dwarf is printed in the UK it allows them a quicker turn around, so they could potentially just port the stuff out of a separate PA book and into white dwarf so there isn't a 6-12 month long gap in the book series.

All this talk of it being lazy or having less content is an assumption at best. If they trim anything it'll be fluff pages, which the series isn't noted for doing well with anyway.

Once you trudge through all the anti-supplement hate and bias that always rears it's ugly head, I think the above has the most credence to it.

Fact: Harlequins and Deathwatch had their symbols on the Psychic Awakening update list from the very beginning.

So, obviously something changed along the way. Perhaps they were slated for a book but GW just couldn't figure out how it fit with the so called story progression.

My honest take? Pariah and the Deathwatch/Harlie book were already done, with the former being the last book slated to wrap up the story. GW then realized that their entire schedule has been hammered by the pandemic, and made the hard choice to axe a book so as to not put a huge delay on other projects. Pariah is too important as it wraps up the series, so maybe GW will just take the fluff and rules that it created for Deathwatch/Harlies, and decided that the best damage control would be to place them in a WD instead to cut back on production delays.
If that's the case, it ain't so grim as the content will be the same, just not the presentation. I really hope this is the case since I love both of these armies.

That's why I'm also hoping that GW will do an announcement on it this week after seeing some of the backlash from players after Saturday's revelation.

Alternatively, Deathwatch and Harlequins were always going to be White Dwarf--like Fyreslayers were for WarCry.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Alternatively, Deathwatch and Harlequins were always going to be White Dwarf--like Fyreslayers were for WarCry.

40K is not Warcry.
I don't believe for a second they were planned as a WD entry, not with the image that was posted in the very beginning.

You're right, Warcry was easier to release a faction outside of White Dwarf and yet they still chose to do it.

Let's not pretend that the rules contents for factions in Psychic Awakening have been so extensive that they can't be in a White Dwarf. The only exception has been DA, BA, and SW and that is because it's copy/pasting the Vanguard stuff into these factions.

 bullyboy wrote:
My honest take? Pariah and the Deathwatch/Harlie book were already done, with the former being the last book slated to wrap up the story. GW then realized that their entire schedule has been hammered by the pandemic, and made the hard choice to axe a book so as to not put a huge delay on other projects. Pariah is too important as it wraps up the series, so maybe GW will just take the fluff and rules that it created for Deathwatch/Harlies, and decided that the best damage control would be to place them in a WD instead to cut back on production delays.
If that's the case, it ain't so grim as the content will be the same, just not the presentation. I really hope this is the case since I love both of these armies.

That's why I'm also hoping that GW will do an announcement on it this week after seeing some of the backlash from players after Saturday's revelation.

What's the situation where delaying printing is prevent them from announcing future projects? They're perfectly happy to delay engine war, pariah, and war of the spider. What makes the DW/harlie book so special that suddenly, nope, THAT book would put a huge delay on future projects. These other 3 books we're delaying? Yeah your armies are still awesome and get big shiny books in the future. Why aren't THOSE in white dwarf? Besides, how is printing books (understandably delayed) preventing future projects? They're entirely separate issues. It's not like the rules and lore team is sitting at the printing presses waiting for it to blow over before they hit print.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Inquisition are not and never should have been "an army". They should have been a single frigging character, end of story.

Which is how it was with Daemonhunters and Witchhunters. There's not so many units in each army of Grey Knights, Sisters, and Deathwatch that they couldn't BE condensed into a single codex. I'm pretty sure even if you did that the main Marine codex would sti be bigger anyway.

Let's be honest. Most "put it all in one book" people are probably using pirated copies of codexes and Battlescribe, so are just blowing wind.

This is a collectors game. If you don't like collecting, there are far cheaper hobbies out there.


Death Guard have more unique units than Blood Angels. New units, because this is new GW. Your old models are basically Legends. Just move on. And I played a mono DG army for 3 editions.

You can't lump it into one mega encyclopedia and expect people to carry it around. Remeber the 5th edition rulebook? That thing was heavier than my entire army. People complain about lack of content, then complain about bloat. You cant have it both.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
My honest take? Pariah and the Deathwatch/Harlie book were already done, with the former being the last book slated to wrap up the story. GW then realized that their entire schedule has been hammered by the pandemic, and made the hard choice to axe a book so as to not put a huge delay on other projects. Pariah is too important as it wraps up the series, so maybe GW will just take the fluff and rules that it created for Deathwatch/Harlies, and decided that the best damage control would be to place them in a WD instead to cut back on production delays.
If that's the case, it ain't so grim as the content will be the same, just not the presentation. I really hope this is the case since I love both of these armies.

That's why I'm also hoping that GW will do an announcement on it this week after seeing some of the backlash from players after Saturday's revelation.

What's the situation where delaying printing is prevent them from announcing future projects? They're perfectly happy to delay engine war, pariah, and war of the spider. What makes the DW/harlie book so special that suddenly, nope, THAT book would put a huge delay on future projects. These other 3 books we're delaying? Yeah your armies are still awesome and get big shiny books in the future. Why aren't THOSE in white dwarf? Besides, how is printing books (understandably delayed) preventing future projects? They're entirely separate issues. It's not like the rules and lore team is sitting at the printing presses waiting for it to blow over before they hit print.

Books need to be printed. Before we went on lockdown, I assume Engine War has already been printed, not sure on War of the Spider. GW has many other projects in the line, new releases, long term plans etc. I am sure they have had numerous meetings on how to manage the next year or two of releases in light of the current situation, with many changes having to be made to meet their strategic plan. They have large and small projects. Perhaps the printing of another PA book was deemed not necessary (possibly along with some other minor projects), to not delay some of the larger plans in their schedule, the big money makers.

Almost every business has had to change it's plans and identity at this time, I'm sure GW is among them.