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2020/05/09 03:44:06
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Though when it comes to Gauss, my Head Canon has always been that it’s a continuous beam, rather than pulses of energy.
Now I’m not 100% sure where that comes from. It may be the original Necron background. It may be my mate and I doing Mars Attack noises when his Necrons shot up my Dark Angels! Could be something in between!
Even if a beam, a successful armor save can mean the beam only stayed on the target for a short period of time, not enough to inflict significant damage.
2020/05/09 04:32:05
Subject: Re:Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Iracundus wrote: Everything the Tyranids do is arguably driven by that pitiless calculation of reward vs cost. That's why I dislike that whole stuff about the Hive Mind having some sort of vendetta against the Blood Angels.
Lack of sufficient reward explains multiple Tyranid behaviors, such as why they avoid Necron tomb worlds on dead worlds. Tyranids can and have overwhelmed Necron tombs on worlds that have active biospheres, but they stay clear of dead worlds because there would be little return in both biomass and genetic material for the effort expended. Similarly, the Tyranids stop at bedrock because at some point the Hive Mind has concluded that beyond that point it would be more efficient to go look for a different target.
The Tyranids seem content to pick off the weak and vulnerable worlds because those offer most reward for the least effort. Though they may target highly defended worlds from time to time, such as Gryphonne IV, for every high value world a far higher number of no-name worlds are attacked and devoured. The Tyranids seem to accept losing the battle for a big world here and there while quietly winning 9 other lower profile worlds elsewhere. That is how the splinter fleets of Kraken regrew despite Kraken's defeat at Ichar IV.
As for why the Tyranids preferentially target life bearing worlds: The Tyranids have 2 needs.
1. Biomass
2. Genetic material
Life bearing worlds meet both needs, while inorganic sources of CHNOPS don't. The other reason life bearing worlds may be targeted and stripped bare is time. It may be quicker to strip a world that has biomass than making your own biomass from inorganic sources. If one could consume 10 worlds of biomass in the time to make the equivalent of 1 world's worth of biomass yourself from inorganic sources, then stripping bare would be favored.
It's the same reason why predation exists in the first place as opposed to all life synthesizing their own stuff like plants. When you eat another creature, you get far more organic material in an easily utilized format already whereas synthesizing it yourself is slow by comparison.
One of the books outright says Tyranids are eating less and less of the planet's mass and targetting Admech installations for refined metals. They eat less because either they're afraid and running, or they like eating humans more than rocks so they're going for the delicious humans first.
My "issues" with Tyranids will be satisfied if they can digest 100% of a planet but don't do it for other reasons. And my "issues" with Tyranids will worsen to the point I might lose all interest in the species if it turns out they are incapable of eating bedrock and such which multiple video games allude to.
Gladius says Tyranids trapped on a planet ate everything down to bedrock, but then stopped there and just endlessly get killed and re-killed by the planet over and over with less biomass each time.
Gladius says Tyranids can't eat Necron metal.
Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 has planets labeled "indigestible"
2020/05/09 06:10:27
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
There's a lot of organic molecules in the atmosphere of a gas giant.
All you have to do is harvest them. A lot of them are easier to break down that full lifeforms.
It's an all-you-can-eat buffet.
They already consume the atmospheres of habitable planets, anyway. So it's not like it's something they can't do. Gas giants will give them more reaction mass, more complex organic chains from the habitable planets more grist for the gribbly mills.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 06:11:41
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
2020/05/09 06:24:52
Subject: Re:Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
That only meets the 1st need of the Tyranids, that of biomass. It doesn't meet their 2nd need for genetic material. That's not to say they won't do it, but they wouldn't consume them exclusively.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/09 06:25:48
2020/05/09 10:16:45
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Tyranids are also clearly intent on destroying viable targets.
You say they've two objectives - harvest biomass and genetic material. However I'd argue they have three.
The third is pacification. Tyranids are not just after genetic material, they are clearly aiming to target the military and economic powers of the Galaxy. Why charge head long for a Space Marine homeworld when there are thousands of easier to hit targets, some with way more biomass and genetic material. It's not just that the swarm is hungry and lusting for genetic data.
The swarm is clearly intentionally targeting specific locations in an effort to weaken key power players within the galaxy. Avoiding Tomb worlds might be because they've observed that Necrons, if left alone, tend to stay mostly inactive.The logical train of thought then is to ignore them where at all possible and focus on building up forces on other worlds. Leave the Necron for later, especially as the Necron don't appear to reproduce very much at this stage (from what I recall). Necron's can't/aren't expanding their forces, so they are a finite target that, if left alone, is not a bother. Tyranids can skirt around them and focus on other targets and come back and deal with the Necrons later. I think this is one other thing where the Silent King has realised its happening. That if he's not careful and doesn't unite the Necron forces into a united front, the Tyranids will simple overrun other worlds and beat the Necrons through sheer weight of numbers. Having also then evolved to a superior point by harvesting genetic data from much of the galaxy as well.
It's the same reason we see Tyranids adapting and perhaps even building a huge planet to push out a huge Shadow in the Warp to drive back the demons. Of all the current factions Tyranids might actually be one currently capable and with the drive and resources to try and close some of the Chaos Rifts. Necrons have held them at bay before; Eldar might be able but lack resources; Imperium is a technological mess; Tau are still coming to terms with how big the Galaxy is and how the Imperium really DOES cover most of it and Demons are really a thing etc... Even if they could research technologies, they are far too few and in the wrong place.
Overread wrote: Tyranids are also clearly intent on destroying viable targets.
You say they've two objectives - harvest biomass and genetic material. However I'd argue they have three.
The third is pacification. Tyranids are not just after genetic material, they are clearly aiming to target the military and economic powers of the Galaxy. Why charge head long for a Space Marine homeworld when there are thousands of easier to hit targets, some with way more biomass and genetic material. It's not just that the swarm is hungry and lusting for genetic data.
The swarm is clearly intentionally targeting specific locations in an effort to weaken key power players within the galaxy. Avoiding Tomb worlds might be because they've observed that Necrons, if left alone, tend to stay mostly inactive.The logical train of thought then is to ignore them where at all possible and focus on building up forces on other worlds. Leave the Necron for later, especially as the Necron don't appear to reproduce very much at this stage (from what I recall). Necron's can't/aren't expanding their forces, so they are a finite target that, if left alone, is not a bother. Tyranids can skirt around them and focus on other targets and come back and deal with the Necrons later. I think this is one other thing where the Silent King has realised its happening. That if he's not careful and doesn't unite the Necron forces into a united front, the Tyranids will simple overrun other worlds and beat the Necrons through sheer weight of numbers. Having also then evolved to a superior point by harvesting genetic data from much of the galaxy as well.
It's the same reason we see Tyranids adapting and perhaps even building a huge planet to push out a huge Shadow in the Warp to drive back the demons. Of all the current factions Tyranids might actually be one currently capable and with the drive and resources to try and close some of the Chaos Rifts. Necrons have held them at bay before; Eldar might be able but lack resources; Imperium is a technological mess; Tau are still coming to terms with how big the Galaxy is and how the Imperium really DOES cover most of it and Demons are really a thing etc... Even if they could research technologies, they are far too few and in the wrong place.
That 3rd goal I would agree is there, but it is to still ultimately serve the other goals. The Tyranids according to their Codex now view daemons as other predators targeting the same prey as the Tyranids, and thus Hive Fleet Kronos is part of a strategy against them. Their targeting of heavily defended worlds like Gryphonne IV and space marine worlds can be viewed the same way, as surely the Hive Mind now understands these worlds are the sources of reinforcements to weaker worlds, and therefore a pre-emptive attack on them on the Tyranids' terms and timetable would be better.
2020/05/09 10:51:03
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Aye it serves the other two, but the other two also serve each other. Feeding the hunger allows for harvesting of more genetic material and vis versa.
However each one as a focus on its own brings its own distinctive elements to the table. As noted the Tyranids could feed on gas giants and likely "dead" worlds and feed its hunger that way. However such an approach might not produce genetic material; and it won't weaken many of the other races who also don't use those worlds.
Thus each of the three, both reinforces each other, but also serves to bring its own key requirements to the actions of the Tyranids.
This is, of course, ignoring any further motivations from elements of the Swarm outside of the Galaxy that we've yet (or might never) see. Such as my whale theory in that big juicy gas giants are being left for vast feeding space shipbeasts to come once the galaxy is "tamed and safe". Much like a moving herd - what we have now are the wolves; what follows are the cattle.
The main thing about nids seems to be a drive to destroy all other life. They seem to be hyperpredatory. Many predators kill what they need to survive, killing is a means to an, end, namely survival.The nids seem to make killing all other life an end unto itself. Maybe they ignore gas giants with no native life because there's nothing to kill in them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/09 17:48:44
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
2020/05/10 00:05:51
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
They are eliminating potential threats, the 'why' is only for us to speculate. It may be that there is no why anymore; in their original form they were a swarm of organisms that ate and targeted threats so it could survive in its home ecosystem. Just like an ant colony or the like. But they over adapted, became an 'invasive species' in their home galaxy, eliminating all competition and eating everything. But that ant colony is still going to eat and eliminate threats, because that is what it does. Nothing about the Hive Mind's intelligence suggests it even has the capacity to consider existence outside of that.
Which is to say I feel the consumption is not the means to an end, it is the end in itself. Which would make the Tyranids all the more horrifying; they do not even have a secret motive or plan or goal. They devour worlds because that is what they do, with no more malice or motive than an asteroid striking a space station.
I think of Tyranids more as a sentient ecosystem thats driven to absorb other ecosystems. Like, if every living thing on our world, from viruses to whales, was part of the same consciousness, and was hell bent on absorbing every other living thing to make more of itself.
Ok, so according to the internet
4% of matter in the galaxy is stars
12% of matter in the galaxy is gas
0% of matter is non-gas like asteroids, rocks, etc.
84% of matter is darkmatter which is not proven to exist, just accepted.
The earth's crust makes up less than 1% of mass of the entire planet. Since bedrock is not that deep Tyranids consume much less than 1% of mass of a planet.
So it is accurate to say that Tyranids that don't consume gas giants consume around 0% of mass of the entire galaxy
That is pathetic.
But with the Shield of Baal: Leviathan's lore, we now know that Tyranids consume 12% of matter in the galaxy. And if we assume dark matter doesn't exist, this figure jumps up to 66.7% of the galaxy.
But still, being only able to consume less than 1% of a planet's mass is pathetic. And no mention about stars.
So I really hope that GW does eventually release lore that says Tyranids make bio-dyson spheres or some other way to consume stars, and a giant planet eating tyranid hive ship exists to eat more than 0.1% of a planet's mass.
2020/05/10 15:20:56
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Insectum7 wrote: ^That seems like an arbitrary metric, considering that the ability to re-convert all life in the galaxy into one giant organism is already monumental.
Is it though? A planet's crust is less than 1% of the planet. How much of that is organic life? Non-gas or stars make up 0% of the galaxy. And how many of non-gas or stars have organic life on them?
I don't think it's monumental for a millions year old race. Maybe for a 40,000 year old race but not billions.
2020/05/10 17:56:51
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
The human race is around 300,000 years old and we're nowhere near that
We also don't know how old the Tyranids are. Although we know they're extra galactic, which is more than any othe 40k faction has achieved, apoarently. Being 'pathetic' for not being able to convert every atom into part of a living, sentient thing seems like a pretty high bar.
One of the books outright says Tyranids are eating less and less of the planet's mass and targetting Admech installations for refined metals. They eat less because either they're afraid and running, or they like eating humans more than rocks so they're going for the delicious humans first.
A lot of the questions in this thread should be answered by this quote.
From "The devastation of Baal"
Spoiler:
"They take even the metal,’ said Erwin.
The Servile of the Watch looked up from his podium over the augur pits, where baseline humans less fortunate than he laboured in unbreakable communion with the ship, their eyes and ears removed and sensory cortexes plugged directly into the auspectoria’s cogitators.
‘They take minerals of every kind, my lord,’ said the servile. ‘I have compared spectrographic analysis of this world with records of how it was. It shows massive depletion of all main range elements. The devourer remakes the worlds it consumes. Although I notice a small inconsistency with the oldest records of tyrannic-stripped worlds.’
‘Small enough for me to ignore?’ asked Erwin. The Servile of the Watch was an earnest fellow, genuinely fascinated with his work. He had been known to bore his masters with unnecessary detail.
The servile pulled a neutral expression, making his slave tattoos shift across his face, a sense of motion exaggerated by the low light of the command deck. The Servile of the Watch was unusually expressive for one of his breed. ‘Whether it is relevant or not I shall leave to your deep percipience, my lord.’
Erwin grunted. ‘Edify me then.’
‘The older worlds show a larger loss of mass. The tyranids spent longer on each, digesting parts of the planetary crust. They do not remain so long as they once did. Once the biological components of the world have been devoured, they target only sources of refined metals, such as the Mechanicus station here, in preference to the source minerals.’
‘Then they are running scared, feeding, moving on before they can be interrupted,’ said Erwin. ‘Commander Dante has them afraid.’
‘Or, my lord, they are presented with a surfeit of food. They have nothing to fear. They have too much choice. The Imperium is a banquet to them. They have become fussy eates"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 09:20:38
Tyranid fanboy.
Been around since 3rd edition.
2020/05/11 10:03:22
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Fussy and fast. Tyranids aren't grazing they are conducting a war in a hostile environment. Nibbling the choicest bits here and there as they go makes more sense than digging in and getting locked down. Mobility is a powerful and effective tool in war.
If Tyranids can keep moving fast and attacking world after world it hinders attempts to stop them because the front line keeps moving. If they are also seeding worlds ahead of them with Genestealer Cults then that will speed such disruption and destabilisation of the enemy.
Do the nids not realize that if they consume everything and keep growing they will destroy all accessible ood sources and eventually die of starvation?
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
2020/05/12 20:48:12
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Matt Swain wrote: Do the nids not realize that if they consume everything and keep growing they will destroy all accessible ood sources and eventually die of starvation?
Does a locust swarm realize the same thing?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
roboemperor wrote: Ok, so according to the internet
4% of matter in the galaxy is stars
12% of matter in the galaxy is gas
0% of matter is non-gas like asteroids, rocks, etc.
84% of matter is darkmatter which is not proven to exist, just accepted.
The earth's crust makes up less than 1% of mass of the entire planet. Since bedrock is not that deep Tyranids consume much less than 1% of mass of a planet.
So it is accurate to say that Tyranids that don't consume gas giants consume around 0% of mass of the entire galaxy
That is pathetic.
But with the Shield of Baal: Leviathan's lore, we now know that Tyranids consume 12% of matter in the galaxy. And if we assume dark matter doesn't exist, this figure jumps up to 66.7% of the galaxy.
But still, being only able to consume less than 1% of a planet's mass is pathetic. And no mention about stars.
So I really hope that GW does eventually release lore that says Tyranids make bio-dyson spheres or some other way to consume stars, and a giant planet eating tyranid hive ship exists to eat more than 0.1% of a planet's mass.
Uhm, the Tyranids aren't trying to consume as much matter as possible. Saying they are pathetic based on a metric that is coincidental does not make any sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/12 20:49:33
Matt Swain wrote: Do the nids not realize that if they consume everything and keep growing they will destroy all accessible ood sources and eventually die of starvation?
Tyranid Universe Theory - in the beginning was the great belly that consumed all till there was nothing. Then it exploded.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Uhm, the Tyranids aren't trying to consume as much matter as possible. Saying they are pathetic based on a metric that is coincidental does not make any sense.
If it's because it's not their goal then you're right, they're not pathetic. Because they can but don't.
If it's because they are incapable then no, you're wrong. they're pathetic. Because they can't even if they wanted to.
The video games suggest it's the latter : (
2020/05/13 02:47:42
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
Matt Swain wrote: Do the nids not realize that if they consume everything and keep growing they will destroy all accessible ood sources and eventually die of starvation?
All life still comes from stars and nebulae, so starvation only really happens after the universe has produced it's last star, which is pretty close to the end of everything else. A bunch of dead matter and the Tyranid macro-organism in that case.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Uhm, the Tyranids aren't trying to consume as much matter as possible. Saying they are pathetic based on a metric that is coincidental does not make any sense.
If it's because it's not their goal then you're right, they're not pathetic. Because they can but don't.
If it's because they are incapable then no, you're wrong. they're pathetic. Because they can't even if they wanted to.
Necrons can do it (crypteks can transmute any matter into any matter). Which means eventually, like within a million years, Tau and Chaos can do it. IoM can too if they stop being ******** and advance tech.
Necrons and Tyranids are supposed to be at the end of their technological prowess right? They can't make anything better. So one can utilize 100% of matter (necrons have dyson spheres. ask Trazyn), the other can only utilize 0% of matter. Well, with Gas giants I get its bumped up to 75% of matter.
I don't know. That's how I feel. One race can utilize trees, rocks, and lava. The other can only use trees. Can't help but think one is intelligent and the other is a dumb brute.
2020/05/13 03:20:58
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
^Conversely, the Hive Mind is a consciousness that might span galaxies. There's an argument to be made that that's more advanced than any other faction could be, rock-eating (which they appear to be able to do) aside.
Necrons can do it (crypteks can transmute any matter into any matter). Which means eventually, like within a million years, Tau and Chaos can do it. IoM can too if they stop being ******** and advance tech.
Necrons and Tyranids are supposed to be at the end of their technological prowess right? They can't make anything better. So one can utilize 100% of matter (necrons have dyson spheres. ask Trazyn), the other can only utilize 0% of matter. Well, with Gas giants I get its bumped up to 75% of matter.
I don't know. That's how I feel. One race can utilize trees, rocks, and lava. The other can only use trees. Can't help but think one is intelligent and the other is a dumb brute.
Someone could use trees and rocks to make a stone weapon, another can use trees to make a 3-story mansion complete with furniture and paintings on parchment. By your logic, the first is more advanced.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Someone could use trees and rocks to make a stone weapon, another can use trees to make a 3-story mansion complete with furniture and paintings on parchment. By your logic, the first is more advanced.
Except we're not talking about a stone weapon. We're talking about a stone castle vs a wooden castle. Necron tech beats Tyranid tech in every way. Living Metal > Tyranid Flesh. We can't compare Necron production speed with Tyranid production speed because afaik Necron production speed is never mentioned other than their scarabs.
Necrons got world engines, Aether orbs, Dyson spheres, Magnovitrum or whatever that blows up gas giants, Celestial Orrey. Tyranids need to wait until GW advances the plot in the next decade for a real non-scouting hive fleet to arrive.
2020/05/13 08:45:41
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
roboemperor wrote: Necrons and Tyranids are supposed to be at the end of their technological prowess right? They can't make anything better.
No. The tyranids are constantly improving existing designs, and coming up with entirely new ones. One could take the maleceptor as an example.
From 8th edition:
"The Maleceptor is the purest embodiment of the Hive Mind’s psychic power, a living vessel for the gestalt consciousness that rules the Tyranid race. As it advances ominously into battle, warp energy spears from its eyeless cranium, vapourising all in its path. Those fortunate enough to survive the monster’s keening psychic screams are spitted upon colossal talons, their torn bodies hurled aside. Bullets and energy bolts fired at the Maleceptor are consumed by a formidable psychic barrier, or deflect harmlessly from its thickly armoured hide. In response, ethereal pseudopods reach forth from the creature’s glistening brain-arrays. The merest brush from one of these psychic tendrils overloads the victim’s consciousness with a fraction of the Hive Mind’s unimaginable energies, detonating their skull in an eruption of blood and cerebral matter.
Maleceptors are the response of the Hive Mind to some of the more psychically gifted races that populate the galaxy"
So one can utilize 100% of matter (necrons have dyson spheres. ask Trazyn), the other can only utilize 0% of matter. Well, with Gas giants I get its bumped up to 75% of matter.
Yet, if the necrons are to have a chance of beating the tyranids, their enitre race will have to reunite.. So, does that mean that the necrons are pathetic?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 09:07:08
Tyranid fanboy.
Been around since 3rd edition.
2020/05/13 09:14:08
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?
I doubt GW changes Nids Lore much. I'm pretty sue they enjoy debates like this. And they're probably meant to be this unknowable ever-present threat that might end the galaxy. Woop de doo da.
Personally I find the Nids boring. They're like one of those novelty sliding graphic pens....interesting for a couple of minutes, but once the girl's bikini slides off a few times you're kind of done with it. There's just not that much to talk about. They're not very interesting.
Cooler than Tau though. Lamest species in the Lore.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 09:16:51
2020/05/13 09:31:38
Subject: Shield of Baal: Leviathan, is it saying Tyranids can eat Gas Giants?