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yukishiro1 wrote:
I actually kinda get the guy's point re: "you will not be missed." This does feel strangely aggressive for what is an anodyne PR release that is designed to be as content-free as possible.

He's obviously exaggerating a lot re: "declaring war" on anybody and one wonders why. But it does seem weird they went out of their way to end their message on a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" note, rather than a "we're all in this together" note. It's certainly not what the PR textbook would recommend.

“You will not be missed” is the last line of the intro to every 40k novel so its presumably there as in joke, which is probably why it reads a bit stronger than would be usual in that sort of press release.

Historically GW have not been overly concerned with what discontented fans post on the internet.

soviet13 wrote:


These are big words for someone that literally just compared the price of plastic soldiers with a company that kills off its own customers through lack of safety measures.

What moral obligation does GW have to charge anything other than what it thinks it can get?

The purpose of an analogy is to illustrate a point, not to claim that two situations are identical. Obviously raising prices on toy soldiers is not the same as killing your customers by cutting corners. The point was to show the inadequacy of "it's just economics" as a refutation of the argument that someone has behaved badly. I chose an extreme example because it mostly easily illustrates the fallacy of that line of argument.

But you have arrived at the right question: what is moral or immoral about GW raising prices? That is my entire point. If we are talking morality, we should talk morality. Not simply say "it's the free market," as if that is any answer.

I wrote the post that started this not because I felt particularly strongly myself that GW had behaved badly, but to call out all the people who were defending GW's behavior because "it's just economics." I wouldn't want to speak for the people who believed GW had behaved badly as to what their reasoning was. My point was simply that you have to engage a moral argument in moral terms. "It's the free market" is no answer to a charge of bad behavior.

But judging from their responses in this thread, the people who feel GW has behaved badly would probably say that GW, having spent decades building up a corporate image as a friend of hobbyists and a member of the gaming community rather than as a faceless corporate behemoth, has not behaved in keeping with the image it has constructed for itself by choosing to raise prices in the middle of a massive global catastrophe that has seen hundreds of millions of people lose their jobs. I would imagine they do not feel this behavior is consistent with the way GW has presented itself to the community in the past, and therefore, that it is two-faced and morally objectionable, and a betrayal of the people who bought into that image. You'd have to ask them to know for sure, though.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I actually kinda get the guy's point re: "you will not be missed." This does feel strangely aggressive for what is an anodyne PR release that is designed to be as content-free as possible.

He's obviously exaggerating a lot re: "declaring war" on anybody and one wonders why. But it does seem weird they went out of their way to end their message on a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" note, rather than a "we're all in this together" note. It's certainly not what the PR textbook would recommend.

“You will not be missed” is the last line of the intro to every 40k novel so its presumably there as in joke, which is probably why it reads a bit stronger than would be usual in that sort of press release.

Ah, that's interesting information to have. Thanks for pointing it out. That probably is what is going on - which kinda illustrates the danger of putting "in jokes" into messages that are going to a wider audience. Not that I think this particular one is all that big a deal either way, mind you.

 Sqorgar wrote:

soviet13 wrote:
I just went back to re-read the Warhammer is for Everyone thing in case I'd missed something. How could anyone possibly feel attacked or excluded by that?

How does "you will not be missed" not indicate an intent to exclude people?

Can't I just have one fething thing that isn't political? I do not subscribe to the belief that people who disagree with me are evil. I think that I am not always right, that issues are always complicated, and that it is through debate that understanding is reached. I think open discussion is so important, and so absent these days, that there is probably nothing more important right now. I'm not going to willingly participate in a product which suggests that there is no room for debate, because I don't think a company that makes toy goblins should decide where I draw the line on what I'm going to talk about and with whom.

As notes, 'you will not be missed' is a reincorporation of a classic 40k blurb. I don't want to get political here either but I don't see how anyone could disagree with GW's broad statement of inclusion unless they were someone who sought to exclude particular groups themselves? I'm not saying that applies to you. I'm just trying to understand where the controversy is.

Blastaar wrote:

 MJRyder wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

I've never understood the strange way some people think that "it's the free market" is a response to a moral argument. The fact that GW doesn't care about anything besides making money is not a refutation of someone's charge that they are behaving badly; if anything, it is a confirmation of it.

Wow, I'm sorry, but there are an awful lot of problems with your argument, as you seem to be conflating several different ideas and assuming they are equivalent. I've highlighted two of the main issues above ^.

1) The free market point is *not* about morals. It's not a moral argument. Sure, you can make it a moral argument in the sense that 'capitalism=bad', but really, we're not going to bring down capitalism any time soon, so you really do need to move beyond the overly simplistic argument that rising prices is somehow immoral. After all, following your logic, everything should be free. And that of course, is a logical impossibility as the world as we know it would simply stop working.

2) Building on point #1, your second false assumption is that any sort of price rise is in somehow 'bad', and that GW are 'behaving badly'. Of course, 'bad' here is a relativistic argument. The point here is that everyone has choices. Just because GW (or any other company for that matter) raises prices, doesn't mean they are deliberately out to hurt you personally. They're certainly not 'behaving badly'. It's just economics.

I can give you a more detailed lesson on all of the above if you like, but I don't really want to bore everyone.

You are correct- the "free market" is amoral. The trouble with capitalism is that is is a system of exploitation and endless greed- the cause of most of the world's problems. The pursuit of profit is not an inherent good. Nice slippery-slope fallacy, by the way. No-one expects everything, or anything, to be free. Merely fairly priced. GW further raising their obscene prices, in the midst of a pandemic that has put hundreds of millions of people out of work, when we are likely heading into a global depression, is very much "behaving badly."

Why? Nobody needs toy soldiers so what is ‘fairly priced’ other than what people are willing to pay? It’s not like they’re gouging people for basic necessities, if they price too high less people will simply buy their stuff and they’ll lose money. It’s not really a moral question at all.

They also need to continue pay their employees, suppliers and shareholders (many of whom will be pension funds), all of whom are being affected by the global pandemic.

And despite its many faults capitalism is the source of most of the world’s wealth - including the high standard of living that enables us to argue on the internet about whether our luxury toys are priced ‘immorally’ high...

Lord Zarkov wrote:
“You will not be missed” is the last line of the intro to every 40k novel so its presumably there as in joke...

I just checked the novels I have, and it is not in the intro for any of them. It is, however, in the intro the 40k rulebook. It says something like "It's a big universe, and whatever happens, you will not be missed". Seems like a VERY different connotation than "If you agree with us, you are welcome in the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed". It may have been an inside joke, but I think the sentiment was not.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:
“You will not be missed” is the last line of the intro to every 40k novel so its presumably there as in joke...

I just checked the novels I have, and it is not in the intro for any of them. It is, however, in the intro the 40k rulebook. It says something like "It's a big universe, and whatever happens, you will not be missed". Seems like a VERY different connotation than "If you agree with us, you are welcome in the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed". It may have been an inside joke, but I think the sentiment was not.

Which part of their message of inclusion do you disagree with?

Well, GW put nicely into words how them releasing more female models and more models that are not caucasian (and characters outside of the model range) in the future was not up for debate, and I think it is entirely their right to state their decision and say it's not something they are willing to compromise on.
I think it is fair to say that this, precisely this, is what the message is saying. Sqorgar, you seem to believe that it involves a whole lot more than this, like wanting to ban people that liked the old repentia better, or them releasing female space marines, but I don't see any of that in the actual message.
And yes, they stated things in a very strong, almost belligerent way. That doesn't diminish my opinion of them, though, if I am being honest. I like that they took a stand and didn't just offer a generic, toothless statement with no actual content in it. Now, at least, we do know that they want to have more female and non-caucasian characters, that this is an explicit plan of them, and that they won't compromise on it. Good. Things are explicitly out, for everyone to see and decide how they feel about it. It's all in the open.



But then, I have been using only black-skinned female models in my 40k armies since I started in 2003, so of course I'm on board with more female and non-caucasian models .

It IS an inside joke. Ye all should get over it (laughs in 50 kilos un-coloured, non-gendered unassembled plastic)

 Galas wrote:
So being agaisnt policemen sitting on the necks of people is political?

On Dakka, what is and isn't considered political is a question for the mods .

 CoreCommander wrote:
It IS an inside joke. Ye all should get over it (laughs in 50 kilos un-coloured, non-gendered unassembled plastic)

It's an inside joke but I think they mean it literally as well. Good on them.

 Arbitrator wrote:
The only people who I've seen take issue with it were those who felt it was patronising and 'PR speak'. I'm sure we've all seen the "We at [Brand] stand in solidarity without actually doing anything, but this is good PR spin."

I think the parody is hilarious and very onpoint with a lot of brand, but I think GW's message is different for two reasons :
- First, I think their statement that they want to increase the number of female and non-caucasian models is very coherent with my observations on their release lately. AoS chaos is a pretty good example imo.
- Second, I think the "You won't be missed" is very, very far from the consensual tone that is the staple of those noncommittal PR messages.

soviet13 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:
It IS an inside joke. Ye all should get over it (laughs in 50 kilos un-coloured, non-gendered unassembled plastic)

It's an inside joke but I think they mean it literally as well. Good on them.

i'm Ok with that as well and it puzzles me why anyone with a bit of common sense would lose any sleep over it, but whatever - people will be people

Warhammer is a niche luxury interest, there arguments to be made regarding GW's pricing, but if they want to present themselves as the high end premium "Acura" brand to the broader less expensive "Honda" tabletop gaming hobby universe, that's their choice. Purchase accordingly, and I will be the first to admit this often plays into my own purchasing decisions. Likewise, discussing issues of canon or model preference is fine and encouraged, and there are absolutely plenty of respectful ways to do so and room for that here and on other Warhammer related discussion groups, but be aware that Canon has never been a particularly consistent nor immutable thing with GW.

Beyond that...

I am going to say this once, and once only, for the benefit of everyone reading here.

GW's statement of "Warhammer is for Everyone" has nothing to do with pricing. The point is that they do not accept or condone prejudice, hatred, or abuse, and do not wish to be associated with those who engage in such behaviors, nor do they wish their dystopias to be seen as anything to emulate in the real world. Neither do we here on Dakka Dakka. If you have a problem with that fundamental premise, then to echo Games Workshop, just as the intro to every edition of Warhammer 40,000 states, You Will Not Be Missed.

If you have any questions on this issue, I encourage you to please PM me or any other moderator. Thanks!

 Jidmah wrote:

And, as evident by the threads like this that pop up every time, it does cost them some goodwill towards them as an organisation - and you get replies which are as though drugs have been taken away from an addict, which it is like in some ways, and produces a similar reaction where people are not able to just 'walk away'.

Wargaming isn't drugs. And drug dealers don't care for their customer's goodwill.

I think "cult" is a better analogy than drug dealer.

Before anyone gets their arse in their hands, this is a legitimate marketing approach to brand building, I'm not accusing anyone of anything that they might feel offended by.

But the concept of say an Apple fan who rages at everything they change on the latest iteration of device (or don't change, or change in a way different to the way they wanted) then is first in the queue,camping in the street, for a new release bears more than a passing similarity to the behaviour of many a GW fan.

"I hate it, I'm only buying two" is not as far from statements I've read here as you might think.

People are invested in GW as a brand on an emotional level, and everyone has to "go clear" when they're ready in their own way.

To be honest with 8th edition Warhammer is really for everyone. I mean rules are free and you can alwasy play with bottle caps instead of infantry models and cans for tanks. If the goal is just to play the game against a friend or relative you can easily play without investing a single penny other the price of the codex. It's still 40k somehow, and actually when I started the hobby at 12-13 I played a lot like that since I couldn't afford the models, not in a short term at least. Now it's even easier than 3rd edition times as with the internet every size/dimensions of the models are well known and available so we can efficiently proxy everything.

Most gamers here remember when GW sued Chapterhouse or went after Spots the Space Marine and a bunch of fan sites, and shut down legal avenues for purchasing their products at the actual exchange rate. The scale of evil is not the same as some giant corporation, but feels more personal.

Ok, the thread is being re-opened, please lets keep the politics discussions for venues better suited to it than a board for plastic fantasy soldiers. Any further deviations will see warnings and possible suspensions and a permanent closure of the thread. If anyone has any questions, PM me please, don't risk closure of the thread with off topic postings.

I apologize if any of my comments were perceived as political. It certainly wasn't my intent. My point was simply that when a company presents itself as a friend of hobbyists and as a moral force for good rather than a faceless corporation intent only on maximizing its own profits, it naturally opens itself up to accusations of hypocrisy when it behaves in ways that conflict with that image, for example by raising prices during a global catastrophe.

It doesn't really work logically or morally to be "mes que un club" for some stuff and then "it's just economics" for other stuff.

 Pacific wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Wargaming isn't drugs. And drug dealers don't care for their customer's goodwill.

I think in some ways it actually is very similar! If people were able to just 'walk away', you wouldn't get threads like this with people gnashing their teeth.

And in a similar way, the seller can keep treating their customers like dirt, and knowing that they need their product and so will put up with it.

I'll stop there though as I think the comparison ends there

Anyway, am checking out of this thread now as reading back over the last few pages here (and am not referring to you at all here Jidmah), the tone has got pretty nasty.

No offense taken, I guess I'm lucky I missed the part that required the mod action.
Raising prices is not the same as treating customers like dirt though.
As Ork player, I actually felt like being treated like dirt during 7th and I actually walked away from the game because of that. Due to a lucky coincidence, the guy who bought my orks never came to pick them up, so I still had them available when 8th dropped.
GW's prices had little to do with either decision, pricing is just a small parts of the big package that makes up 40k.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Most gamers here remember when GW sued Chapterhouse or went after Spots the Space Marine and a bunch of fan sites, and shut down legal avenues for purchasing their products at the actual exchange rate. The scale of evil is not the same as some giant corporation, but feels more personal.

And got rid of Warhammer Fantasy. Which is now supposedly making a comeback...

...presumably because GW think either a) they made a mistake, b) can gouge veteran players/collectors even more, or c) both...

Edited.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I apologize if any of my comments were perceived as political. It certainly wasn't my intent. My point was simply that when a company presents itself as a friend of hobbyists and as a moral force for good rather than a faceless corporation intent only on maximizing its own profits, it naturally opens itself up to accusations of hypocrisy when it behaves in ways that conflict with that image, for example by raising prices during a global catastrophe.

As posted upthread...

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
It's month 2 of the new tax year. Much easier to keep the books in control if you do changes like this as close to the beginning as you can. And honestly i think there's going to be a lot of price increases from a lot of different businesses over the next few months to try and help cope with what's been going on. I've already seen it in a few cafes and such. Prices have gone up to try and cover what's been lost.

The pandemic has nothing to do with this price increase. It was most likely planned long ago and to occur at the same time of year that they usually do these price increases. Their options were to either go through with the planned price increase or wait until next year and have a price increase that covers the lost income from both the delayed increase and the impact that COVID-19 will have on their business. I'd rather see the price increase now if it means the next one won't be even worse.

GW is fortunate in that their market kept active during the pandemic and bounced back super fast once GW was open again. Whilst they've had to weather it I suspect that they will rise up quite well after this, if not actually doing better than estimated (at least for total sales in volume sold - accepting that they might lose out on store rent).

I suspect that 3rd party model makers will also have done generally ok - problems will be for retail outlets that didn't have online stores and couldn't network enough locally to generate sales - plus when run close to the line anyway.




There's other markets taking much bigger hits such as most of the food, leisure and tourism industries. That's where much of the pain will be because even once lockdowns relax that's one segment that relies on heavy volume of people to run. So not only do they take a huge 3 month or so loss, but they also can't re-open at full capacity. Some might even have to operate at a near loss with reduced capacity just to get the doors open and people coming in again. The best we can hope for them is that 2021 sees a cure/vaccine/reduced transmission etc.. to the point where the tourism industry can recover.

Another option was not to raise prices at all. They have incredible profit margins. It wasn't a case that they needed to do this to stay afloat. There's no rule of the universe that says that they need to maintain the same profit margin even during a global catastrophe.

They made a choice to raise prices, probably before the pandemic. Then they made another choice to go through with it despite the pandemic. These were both choices that GW made and is responsible for. You can say it was a foregone conclusion because GW raises prices no matter what, and that may be true - but that itself is a choice they are responsible for making.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Another option was not to raise prices at all. They have incredible profit margins. It wasn't a case that they needed to do this to stay afloat. There's no rule of the universe that says that they need to maintain the same profit margin even during a global catastrophe.

No. That's not an option and you know it. The world has gotten more expensive for everybody, Games Workshop included.

Don't forget materials like metal (moulds) plastics and overseas imports have all likely gone up; plus any shipping by air has likely gone up too. In addition we might be seeing slower shipping in general even at the company level with large orders not just at our own personal level.

It's going to take years for the world to recover from Corona.

So oil has dropped so low that it was negatively priced, and many businesses have reduced or ceased trading and therefore demand on shipping services will also be proportionately affected, yet plastic and logistics have gone up?

I don't have any evidence to tell you you're wrong, but I'd be interested if you have any to support that idea.