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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Here's the million dollar question:

Right now, one of the most popular games is Kill-Team.

I'm wondering if we'll see it revamped. I mean, it's fine the way it is- it's completely independent of 40k proper. But since they mentioned that the game would be re-balanced for every scale... I wonder if that'll mean we'll see some kind of Kill-Team option in the core rulebook for that.

Likely not, but wishful thinking. A Kill-Team game with some of the Crusade rules could be a decent enough start to making a pretty fun campaign game.

Well, they did have this in their 9th Edition Q&A

What happens to Kill Team?
Absolutely nothing. It’s still there, and it’s still great. Kill
Team is its own rules set, so it isn’t affected by changes
to the main Warhammer 40,000 game. However, with new
editions come new models, and several of these will be
infiltrating their way into Killzones in the near future (...and
the far future).

 Dentry wrote:

Well, they did have this in their 9th Edition Q&A

What happens to Kill Team?
Absolutely nothing. It’s still there, and it’s still great. Kill
Team is its own rules set, so it isn’t affected by changes
to the main Warhammer 40,000 game. However, with new
editions come new models, and several of these will be
infiltrating their way into Killzones in the near future (...and
the far future).

Kinda what I figured. I mean, I'm still standing by the theory that 8th Edition was basically a public beta for 9th Edition and this was planned all along- so a lot of the rules aren't really changing that much, 9th is pretty much just a series of 'lessons learned' from 8th.

However, I've been dancing with GW long enough to know how they'll operate.

If they think there's a good enough reason to slightly modify 9th Edition rules to make a new Kill-Team, they'll certainly do it. After all, most of it is a copy/paste job anyway.

Regarding the new rules for vehicles in cc: will they be able to fire all their guns into cc like pistols? Or will it be similar to the "Steel Behemoth" rule for super heavy tanks? I.E. a Leman Russ could fire its sponson weapons into cc but its turret weapon would have to target models more than 1 away? And since rules like that are one of the things that made super heavys better than normal vehicles will they get some other ability to make up for everything else having it?

I wonder if the new rules will fix dumb rules like plasma guns exploding more often at night.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Likely not, but wishful thinking. A Kill-Team game with some of the Crusade rules could be a decent enough start to making a pretty fun campaign game.

Maybe they revamp KT with a new expansion - Kill-Team: Crusade.

Basically take the Crusade rules, whatever they may be, and adapt them to the existing KT rules. Include other things that might help KT, like 9th's expanded terrain rules or whatever, in the same book.

 GaroRobe wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel paint colors determine the toyetic factor for a lot of GW's products. I mean look at anything in studio Ultramarine paint schemes. Toyetic as he'll. But once the community gets ahold of it they tend to add that darker feel to the models through less clean and bright schemes.

The Black Templar paint scheme makes the Primaris models look 1000x better in my opinion.

I would go further and say almost any other chapter looks better. I have always hated Ultramarines being the poster boy chapter as their color scheme is just so... lame. It's just blue. Plain blue. Everything is blue.

Still better than their fluff though. 'Jack of all trades, masters of tactics, also masters of everything else.'

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if they one day transition. Look at the new Necron. I imagine most of the range will be repainted with the bronze look. Mainly because it looks good and not very Terminatory. The real question will be if we'll see a bronze Trazyn or Imotekh

Another example would be the Tau. They were always shown off with the orange color scheme before the white color scheme replaced them. And some of the Eldar stuff is getting Ynnari-ed. The question would be what would replace Ultramarines? Crimson Fist are blue, but were also poster boys once. Shame Guiliman is the Ultramarines primarch, so that'll be keeping them in the limelight for the next few years.

They reason the studio paints a very simplistic Ultramarines colourscheme is Marines are supposed to be the starter army, painting good looking high detail black, Yellow, White is way more challenging for most new players.

The only other army they are likely to change it to is Salamanders, though that would probably require vulkan making an appearance.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe they revamp KT with a new expansion - Kill-Team: Crusade.

Basically take the Crusade rules, whatever they may be, and adapt them to the existing KT rules. Include other things that might help KT, like 9th's expanded terrain rules or whatever, in the same book.

That would be very cool. Well, depending on how in-depth the Crusade system goes. I try not to get too hyped up about things, because GW said that Kill-Team would have a campaign system similar to Necromunda. And if you take some potent barbiturates, squint, and have recently sustained a head injury- at a passing glance at 70 MPH they are similar. So, for all I know this campaign system could be an afterthought some employee came up with and jotted down on a notecard while he was curling out a turd after lunch.

 Argive wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
GW will eventually redo their normal marine units as primaris scale.

You'll be using primaris tacticals.

But because everything will be primaris, any marine model you deploy will be primaris.

The evidence is in the upcoming releases - the assault marines and bikers look like updates of existing normal units , but because they've created this primaris narrative they've had to release them that way.

We'll get primaris tactical squads and devestator squads eventually and the replacement will be complete.

Maybe they will just side step the issue and we'll all move on as if the Primaris thing never happened and they were just normal marines all along. Once they all the same size.. They will just be marines am I right.

I mean, I fully expect there to be only 2 wound marine model rules in the game in a few years. So I will be able to use my older marine models as primaris because they'll be the only kind of marine with rules and unless GW is going to start banning models that are a certain age, every space marine deployed from then on will effectively be a primaris marine because there won't be another profile to confuse them with.

The only reason I can see them keeping relic 1W marine units around is to deliberately make them suck, but keep their profile so it's harder for people to 'counts as' them as primaris marines....

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder if the new rules will fix dumb rules like plasma guns exploding more often at night.

You don't like the idea of my guys hiding so good that your gun has a 1/3 chance of exploding and killing you?

That's Alpha Legion, but only because it makes sense to enough Orks.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Regarding the new rules for vehicles in cc: will they be able to fire all their guns into cc like pistols? Or will it be similar to the "Steel Behemoth" rule for super heavy tanks? I.E. a Leman Russ could fire its sponson weapons into cc but its turret weapon would have to target models more than 1 away? And since rules like that are one of the things that made super heavys better than normal vehicles will they get some other ability to make up for everything else having it?

I expect turret weapons at least to be able to fire out of CC, mainly because it makes zero sense to shoot a battle cannon within a foot or two of your own tank (if that is even possible due to the angle etc).

If you are only able to shoot at the unit engaged in close combat, some tanks will gain hardly any benefit at all, a predator annihilator for example, good look killing those grots with 4 lascannon shots. This may be a mute point though, as it seemed to show in the graphics that tanks could just run over the infantry units, so we may see a form of tank shock return where tanks can just leave combat at will, causing damage to the infantry unit.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder if the new rules will fix dumb rules like plasma guns exploding more often at night.

You don't like the idea of my guys hiding so good that your gun has a 1/3 chance of exploding and killing you?

That's Alpha Legion, but only because it makes sense to enough Orks.

I reckon it should explode on an unmodified roll of a 1.

 Hellebore wrote:
GW will eventually redo their normal marine units as primaris scale.

You'll be using primaris tacticals.

But because everything will be primaris, any marine model you deploy will be primaris.

The evidence is in the upcoming releases - the assault marines and bikers look like updates of existing normal units , but because they've created this primaris narrative they've had to release them that way.

We'll get primaris tactical squads and devestator squads eventually and the replacement will be complete.

Sure. But the only reason they did create the Primars narrative was so the old Marines would not be discontinued or immediately be replaced by comparable Primaris releases.

You can still use your old Marine bikers either on their own or together with Primaris bikers. That's literally the only reason the Primaris narrative exists. So that things like the old Marine bikes aren't insta-squatted but get a nice long sunset of many, many years for fans/collecters of these models.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Regarding the new rules for vehicles in cc: will they be able to fire all their guns into cc like pistols? Or will it be similar to the "Steel Behemoth" rule for super heavy tanks? I.E. a Leman Russ could fire its sponson weapons into cc but its turret weapon would have to target models more than 1 away? And since rules like that are one of the things that made super heavys better than normal vehicles will they get some other ability to make up for everything else having it?

I expect turret weapons at least to be able to fire out of CC, mainly because it makes zero sense to shoot a battle cannon within a foot or two of your own tank (if that is even possible due to the angle etc).

If you are only able to shoot at the unit engaged in close combat, some tanks will gain hardly any benefit at all, a predator annihilator for example, good look killing those grots with 4 lascannon shots. This may be a mute point though, as it seemed to show in the graphics that tanks could just run over the infantry units, so we may see a form of tank shock return where tanks can just leave combat at will, causing damage to the infantry unit.

Tank Shock returning would be nice. And Thunderblitz for super heavy tanks too would be great!

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
GW will eventually redo their normal marine units as primaris scale.

You'll be using primaris tacticals.

But because everything will be primaris, any marine model you deploy will be primaris.

The evidence is in the upcoming releases - the assault marines and bikers look like updates of existing normal units , but because they've created this primaris narrative they've had to release them that way.

We'll get primaris tactical squads and devestator squads eventually and the replacement will be complete.

Sure. But the only reason they did create the Primars narrative was so the old Marines would not be discontinued or immediately be replaced by comparable Primaris releases.

You can still use your old Marine bikers either on their own or together with Primaris bikers. That's literally the only reason the Primaris narrative exists. So that things like the old Marine bikes aren't insta-squatted but get a nice long sunset of many, many years for fans/collecters of these models.

I don't think so. They never needed a narrative of any kind, they could have just released new marines in a different scale, they've been doing that for decades anyway, this wasn't something new. They've never needed a story reason why they made marines bigger than the older models before.

If they'd just released them as 'new' marine models with new weapon options, and made all marines W2 then you could have used your old marines alongside them regardless, because they all counted as the same thing.

The reason they DIDN'T go this route, was because it didn't compel existing marine players to buy the new models. The primaris concept is entirely there to ensure there's a division between old and new models so that existing marine players are pushed towards re-buying their own army all over again.


In 5 years when every marine unit is replaced with primaris models and all marine rules are primaris rules, then it won't matter if you deploy a 2006 tactical marine squad or a 2022 primaris tactical squad. Because they'll be using the same rules.

What they will have done though, is ensured that they squeezed twice the cash out of players by convincing them to rebuy their own army back, when in 5 years it won't matter because the models will all have the same rules anyway.

 alextroy wrote:
I have to wonder why people think GW will produce a new Codex Space Marines a year after the last codex when they can just do either a Psychic Awakening-styple supplement or Shadowspear-style codex expansion for all the new units?

I mean... because it's GW. It's what it does.

I remember my first game of 40k... I thought my chaos space marines were bad hombres. Then I played tau in 7th... all they did was explode and run away... then 8th happened right before I was about to invest in traitor legions... and now 9th is happening. Here’s to not watching my dudes explode and run away in 9th! Glad I was separated from my hobby for almost all of 8th. I think it is going to live up to its expectations relative to 8th, as in it will be an improvement and a step in the right direction. They at least are acknowledging the community’s complaints about the rules.

 Hellebore wrote:



I don't think so. They never needed a narrative of any kind, they could have just released new marines in a different scale, they've been doing that for decades anyway, this wasn't something new. They've never needed a story reason why they made marines bigger than the older models before.

If they'd just released them as 'new' marine models with new weapon options, and made all marines W2 then you could have used your old marines alongside them regardless, because they all counted as the same thing.

The reason they DIDN'T go this route, was because it didn't compel existing marine players to buy the new models. The primaris concept is entirely there to ensure there's a division between old and new models so that existing marine players are pushed towards re-buying their own army all over again.


In 5 years when every marine unit is replaced with primaris models and all marine rules are primaris rules, then it won't matter if you deploy a 2006 tactical marine squad or a 2022 primaris tactical squad. Because they'll be using the same rules.

What they will have done though, is ensured that they squeezed twice the cash out of players by convincing them to rebuy their own army back, when in 5 years it won't matter because the models will all have the same rules anyway.

Well, if they hadn't invented "primaris", the ol Tactical Marine miniatures would've been obsolete 3 years ago. The only reason it's still around and viable to play with (with or without a collector adding Primaris), despite all the 2017 scaremongers "predicting" it would go away, is because the new models are "primaris" and GW added a lore reason to have both (if you want).

If Tactical Marines get phased out in 5 years (and I think it'll probably be more), that'd be 8 years you get to play with them over and beyond all the fearmonger claims that they would soon be squatted due to Primaris (which they probably would've been, if Intercessors had simply been the "new tactical").

8 years is far and away more than most miniature games ever last (not to mention individual miniatures from other companies' miniatures games remain viable). If "Primaris" get's people 8 years of extra playtime (probably more) out of old miniatures, that's fantastic (and very much worth the somewhat bumpy narrative), not to mention the pretty hard slap in the face of all the idiots proclaiming the end of old Marines since early 2017.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wonder if the new rules will fix dumb rules like plasma guns exploding more often at night.

You don't like the idea of my guys hiding so good that your gun has a 1/3 chance of exploding and killing you?

That's Alpha Legion, but only because it makes sense to enough Orks.

Actually, orks are the only army whose plasma only explodes on natural ones

 Eldarain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
And shift it to start collecting Death Guard and possibly Primaris.

Honestly I really wish they'd do that with more box sets. It'd make it easier to get exclusive models and the sets could be sold cheaper than a full multi-part set would be.

It makes sense to me for them to get some more life out of the investment.

Some precedence as well between the original AoS starter set and more recently Shadowspear. They even brought back Black Reach in a way with the Vedros sets.

I'd like to see a reprint of ABR, they did it with dark vengence,

Any bets on who will be the first primarch for 9th?

Lion El'Johnson.

Not because GW has actually planned to do him, but because GW is basically picking up the most popular rumors from the last years and makes them come true

 Jidmah wrote:
Lion El'Johnson.

Not because GW has actually planned to do him, but because GW is basically picking up the most popular rumors from the last years and makes them come true

Something gnawing at me tells me that if it is a loyalist, it will be Vulkan. As a massive fan of the Salamanders, I expect this to be what they do! But, it will probably be Fulgrim. I'm wondering what the fluff advancement will be like too.

I’m thinking GW isn’t going to do anything with Kill Team this edition. I figure we will get a couple WD articles when new Space Marine units come out so people can use them, and then at the end of the year will get a poorly edited Annual and that’s about all the support the game will get until it dies. They haven’t done anything with it since Elites, and I don’t think they are strongly motivated to, as it sells fine.

I think a lot of people who were working on it got pulled to go work on Warcry, which makes sense as the rules system is much less clunky and in general it’s just a better game. Now if they could make a rule set that elegant for 40k skirmish (or hell even port over Necro rules) we would be in a great spot.

 Sabotage! wrote:
I’m thinking GW isn’t going to do anything with Kill Team this edition. I figure we will get a couple WD articles when new Space Marine units come out so people can use them, and then at the end of the year will get a poorly edited Annual and that’s about all the support the game will get until it dies. They haven’t done anything with it since Elites, and I don’t think they are strongly motivated to, as it sells fine.

I think a lot of people who were working on it got pulled to go work on Warcry, which makes sense as the rules system is much less clunky and in general it’s just a better game. Now if they could make a rule set that elegant for 40k skirmish (or hell even port over Necro rules) we would be in a great spot.

Kill team second edition maybe?

changemod wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
Hmm, isn't all this adding new stuff just to phase out the existing regular Space Marines?

They once again made a point of directly saying it isn't.

And...once again, you'd be an absolute fool to believe them. Old marines will be phased out, it just isn't going to happen in six months like some people predict.

1) They'll not get any new releases except the occasional character or named character. Example is the new librarian in terminator armour.
2) They'll slowly but surely get outclassed in the game to where points-wise and meta-wise you're better off with Primaris units.
3) In a while, and I mean...a long while, the kits will be retired. Many of the plastic kits are already 15-20+ years old, and while GW likes to let kits linger for up to 25 years, they simply won't be replacing them with new versions - ever.

This will happen, and to think otherwise is absolutely silly. However, GW isn't going to suddenly discontinue old marines overnight, and likely not for several years. Old marines will remain in the codex because millions of players around the world have them, and will have them for the foreseeable future.

Your old marines will be fine for another 10-15 years, easy...but it's likely their rules will continue to suck and they'll fade from the market and store slowly.

Are you aware the heresy sub-brand has immense financial leverage to exploit and next to no room for primaris to be shoehorned in?

Do keep in mind that that's Forgeworld territory. But even then it would mean that the regular Terminators, normal Tactical Marines, all the flyers, modern Rhinos and Land Raiders, those Space Marines wearing Space Marines (Centurions?), the old blocky Dreadnoughts, Scouts (to name a few) could be phased out. Of all the plastic kits of the original Space Marine line only the Horus Heresy kits have any relevance.

 Sabotage! wrote:


I think a lot of people who were working on it got pulled to go work on Warcry, which makes sense as the rules system is much less clunky and in general it’s just a better game. Now if they could make a rule set that elegant for 40k skirmish (or hell even port over Necro rules) we would be in a great spot.

Warcry better game than killteam? sorry not in this universe. (at least not at a competitive level)

The mechanics of activations and 2 actions ( copied from necromunda) its really great yes. The rest of the game is a meaningless dice roll, and no one has yet been able to do a balanced mission system.. while kill team already has several that work well.

If they collected information from tournaments like they do with 40k, and adjusted unit points, especially from elites the game would win even more

 Sabotage! wrote:
I’m thinking GW isn’t going to do anything with Kill Team this edition. I figure we will get a couple WD articles when new Space Marine units come out so people can use them, and then at the end of the year will get a poorly edited Annual and that’s about all the support the game will get until it dies. They haven’t done anything with it since Elites, and I don’t think they are strongly motivated to, as it sells fine.

I think a lot of people who were working on it got pulled to go work on Warcry, which makes sense as the rules system is much less clunky and in general it’s just a better game. Now if they could make a rule set that elegant for 40k skirmish (or hell even port over Necro rules) we would be in a great spot.

Sam aka Bottle was the lead on Warcry and I don't believe he worked on Kill Team (not to say others weren't moved over)

 Malika2 wrote:
But even then it would mean that ... Land Raiders... could be phased out.

The day that Marines are phased out in favour of Primaris, I think you'll find the Land Raider suddenly gets "upgraded" and can now suddenly carry Primaris Marines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
But even then it would mean that ... Land Raiders... could be phased out.

The day that Marines are phased out in favour of Primaris, I think you'll find the Land Raider suddenly gets "upgraded" and can now suddenly carry Primaris Marines.

Why would they do that when they can introduce instead the Cawl Hover Raider with T9 and a 1+ save and can carry 15 Primaris. Oh and it's £80.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
But even then it would mean that ... Land Raiders... could be phased out.

The day that Marines are phased out in favour of Primaris, I think you'll find the Land Raider suddenly gets "upgraded" and can now suddenly carry Primaris Marines.

The Chapter organisation of the Silver Templars (Ultima Founding) already features Land Raiders, so presumably background-wise Primaris do actually fit in them compfortably.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
But even then it would mean that ... Land Raiders... could be phased out.

The day that Marines are phased out in favour of Primaris, I think you'll find the Land Raider suddenly gets "upgraded" and can now suddenly carry Primaris Marines.

Or they just upscale terminators and let then run in landraiders.
Anyway, the whole thing get really strange with Chaos Marines not beeing primarised, just upscaled. In my oppinion, GW has painted themself in to a corner, and the way they get out of it will leave a mess sooner or later.