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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
.... or maybe they didnt expect Stratagems to become 90% of list building?

I've always felt like stratagems, these dynamic cinematic, tide turning, pivotal gaming "action scenes" were better suited for Narrative play.

I like this limited CP thing. Kinda shows me they never intended 20+ cp builds, but gamers gonna game the system.

I'd like to have you tell the same thing to armies like Harlequins, Orks and GSC who are bound by huge pre-game and in-game usage of stratagems to accomplish what other armies do by characters/built in abilities in their datasheets. I bet they're "gamers that gonna game the system" too?

Ail-Shan wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Traditionally, your models could either stand near objectives or shoot/punch. No longer! Now you can perform rituals, plant homing beacons, raise banners on key objectives and more. This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission.

I don't understand this. I can not recall at any point, since I began playing in 4th ed, where you had to choose between attacking or holding an objective. Usually you just plopped some units down on the objective and shoot at anything that came close.

Probably more saying giving more things like the turrets Tau can take for firewarrior squads: more types of actions to take other than move, shoot and fight.

That is probably it, its just the "either" / "or" part that's throwing me off.
I get what the author is trying to say now, it's just really awkward.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. I'm not thrilled at the previewed points.

Intercessors go up less than 20%.
Cultists go up 50%.

Bingo, instead of 4 Cultists to every Intercessor, it is now THREE Cultists to every Intercessor!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

Are you forgetting that you gain CP every Command Phase, so 2x a round?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yup, because doing a simple addition of 500 + 1000 to see the new system gives 9 CP at 1500 pts is sooo hard

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

hurting even worse with SIX POINT CULTISTS wooot! - perhaps everything is getting a hike

Actually, perhaps with the CP thing 3K is going to be the new 2K because 20pt incessors is about the same % increase

Until they do more point reveals, 6 point Cultists is pretty absurd.

With over a thousand datasheets in the game, it's def worth rushing to conclusions based on seeing the points values of 2 of them

 Latro_ wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

hurting even worse with SIX POINT CULTISTS wooot! - perhaps everything is getting a hike

Actually, perhaps with the CP thing 3K is going to be the new 2K because 20pt incessors is about the same % increase

To quote the article you obviosuly didn't bother reading or skimming:

Finally, as part of developing the new edition, points values were reviewed and have been adjusted UP across every faction. This may sound odd at first, but it yields several benefits. Firstly, games will play faster with, generally speaking, smaller armies on either side. This also makes starting a fresh army for the new edition a more accessible, quicker experience. It also means there’s room for more granularity when establishing how powerful one unit or ability is compared to another, and a global points reset ensures everyone starts in the same place on Day 1, with no established meta or ‘best army’. Here are a couple of examples so you can see what to expect.

 Latro_ wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. I'm not thrilled at the previewed points.

Intercessors go up less than 20%.
Cultists go up 50%.

why so sad, not like tanks can shoot them in combat now and blasts will likely get full shots. They are gonna be worth that 50% increase man

XD oh lawd.

I imagine those tanks will go up substantially, at least according to GW, since tanks will be able to shoot in command and get the blast rule.

Interesting actually that they are even suggesting armies will have fewer models in them! Strikes me that more price rises are on the horizon as GW appear to be going for quality over quantity. e.g. less models that cost more

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Latro_ wrote:wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected[/img]

No kidding. My usual Dark Eldar build just lost like 8CP, possibly more depending on how additional Deatchments work.

tneva82 wrote:Hopefully they have improved them somehow so scenarios won'' be marine gunline favouring like itc

Doesn't sound like it if they're wanting you to select them based on your army's "narrative".

They might give you extra CP still for Battleforged and perhaps a bonus if you went Brigade? I dunno but I was doing Marine Brigade in the first place so I have the same amount of CP.

We know you gain command points in the command phase. Presumably, you will have fewer at the start of the game because each turn you will gain some, which is a very good thing IMO. Reduce the number of "big CP wombo combos" increase the number of CPs tthat get used on later turns of the game.

While I hate the wombo combo play style as well, they need to fix the armies that they've shoehorned into it. And why have cultists gone up 50% but intercessors only 17%? I don't play cultists but many csm players do, and that seems a bit biased.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

hurting even worse with SIX POINT CULTISTS wooot! - perhaps everything is getting a hike

Actually, perhaps with the CP thing 3K is going to be the new 2K because 20pt incessors is about the same % increase

To quote the article you obviosuly didn't bother reading or skimming:

Finally, as part of developing the new edition, points values were reviewed and have been adjusted UP across every faction. This may sound odd at first, but it yields several benefits. Firstly, games will play faster with, generally speaking, smaller armies on either side. This also makes starting a fresh army for the new edition a more accessible, quicker experience. It also means there’s room for more granularity when establishing how powerful one unit or ability is compared to another, and a global points reset ensures everyone starts in the same place on Day 1, with no established meta or ‘best army’. Here are a couple of examples so you can see what to expect.

Hmm, well that would make 2k points feel a little better to play. Right now 2k takes bloody ages. If armies are smaller due to overall points increases, that would make large point games feel smoother to play.

On the flip side though, it would also make smaller point games feel restrictive.

 Latro_ wrote:
Interesting actually that they are even suggesting armies will have fewer models in them! Strikes me that more price rises are on the horizon as GW appear to be going for quality over quantity. e.g. less models that cost more

It is a really good thing to hear. Rules changes are hard to judge without full context, but as a design principle smaller games is something I want and am relieved is the case.

 Irbis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yup, because doing a simple addition of 500 + 1000 to see the new system gives 9 CP at 1500 pts is sooo hard

I think we both know a vast part of the player base would have a stroke at this level of "house ruling"

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Latro_ wrote:wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected[/img]

No kidding. My usual Dark Eldar build just lost like 8CP, possibly more depending on how additional Deatchments work.

tneva82 wrote:Hopefully they have improved them somehow so scenarios won'' be marine gunline favouring like itc

Doesn't sound like it if they're wanting you to select them based on your army's "narrative".

They might give you extra CP still for Battleforged and perhaps a bonus if you went Brigade? I dunno but I was doing Marine Brigade in the first place so I have the same amount of CP.

We know you gain command points in the command phase. Presumably, you will have fewer at the start of the game because each turn you will gain some, which is a very good thing IMO. Reduce the number of "big CP wombo combos" increase the number of CPs tthat get used on later turns of the game.

While I hate the wombo combo play style as well, they need to fix the armies that they've shoehorned into it. And why have cultists gone up 50% but intercessors only 17%? I don't play cultists but many csm players do, and that seems a bit biased.

Maybe its a reaction to complaints that light infantry type units are too cost-effective, hence the need in 8th ed to introduce weapons with absurd fire rates to deal with light infantry, which made the game balance all weird, as those same weapons are also effective against elite infantry if you can get enough of them?

Umbros wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Interesting actually that they are even suggesting armies will have fewer models in them! Strikes me that more price rises are on the horizon as GW appear to be going for quality over quantity. e.g. less models that cost more

It is a really good thing to hear. Rules changes are hard to judge without full context, but as a design principle smaller games is something I want and am relieved is the case.

The design principle is actually to push for 3000 pts as standard by the end of the edition

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Latro_ wrote:wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected[/img]

No kidding. My usual Dark Eldar build just lost like 8CP, possibly more depending on how additional Deatchments work.

tneva82 wrote:Hopefully they have improved them somehow so scenarios won'' be marine gunline favouring like itc

Doesn't sound like it if they're wanting you to select them based on your army's "narrative".

They might give you extra CP still for Battleforged and perhaps a bonus if you went Brigade? I dunno but I was doing Marine Brigade in the first place so I have the same amount of CP.

We know you gain command points in the command phase. Presumably, you will have fewer at the start of the game because each turn you will gain some, which is a very good thing IMO. Reduce the number of "big CP wombo combos" increase the number of CPs tthat get used on later turns of the game.

While I hate the wombo combo play style as well, they need to fix the armies that they've shoehorned into it. And why have cultists gone up 50% but intercessors only 17%? I don't play cultists but many csm players do, and that seems a bit biased.

That's base cost. Chances are wargear also went up, which would hike Intercessors even further.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yup, because doing a simple addition of 500 + 1000 to see the new system gives 9 CP at 1500 pts is sooo hard

I think we both know a vast part of the player base would have a stroke at this level of "house ruling"

What's sad is that I can actually see that happening
"Nooo we can't play 1500 points! It's not in the chart!"

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yup, because doing a simple addition of 500 + 1000 to see the new system gives 9 CP at 1500 pts is sooo hard

I think we both know a vast part of the player base would have a stroke at this level of "house ruling"

Hahaha yeah, those players that don't want to do GW's job for them are soooooo lame huh?

My 2 cynical cents: points are going up to allow people to buy into the game quicker. It's easier to have a playable force. Once the edition's established they'll reduce point cost again to get more people buying more models.

Yeah on the topic of smaller games, I feel like people are quickly going to just amp up the "normal" game size from 2000 to 3000 or something and it won't help at all. People generally just want to play a lot of their collection and not feel limited.

Which is sad because I'm just hoping this'll make AdMech armies cheaper in relation to the abysmal €/pts cost of today where a Skorpius is 65€ for 70-80ish pts

Hold on a minute:

Are Warp Charges coming back?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hold on a minute:

Are Warp Charges coming back?

Probably just their new way of saying "roll a 4+ on 2d6"

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hold on a minute:

Are Warp Charges coming back?

Looks like it. I'm more interested in what this Mental Interrogation ability is though.
A support ability that scores VP, that can be stacked with that objective, maybe?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. I'm not thrilled at the previewed points.

Intercessors go up less than 20%.
Cultists go up 50%.

Bingo, instead of 4 Cultists to every Intercessor, it is now THREE Cultists to every Intercessor!

Yeah that did not inspire confidence especially given how powerful marines currently are to show them getting a 20% increase while cultits get 50%, presumably other chaff infantry ie guards squads etc get similar increases, yeah no wonder elite models became way more popular in test game's.

Warp Charge is already in the game, it's the target roll you need to pass. Just look at the Psychic Cards.

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah on the topic of smaller games, I feel like people are quickly going to just amp up the "normal" game size from 2000 to 3000 or something and it won't help at all. People generally just want to play a lot of their collection and not feel limited.

Which is sad because I'm just hoping this'll make AdMech armies cheaper in relation to the abysmal €/pts cost of today where a Skorpius is 65€ for 70-80ish pts

With points hikes I could see 2k armies totalling up closer to 3k leading to 3k being the new large game standard for bringing all your toys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Warp Charge is already in the game, it's the target roll you need to pass.

Ah, okay. I was having 7th edition flashbacks.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hold on a minute:

Are Warp Charges coming back?

they never went away? edit: ignore, too much posting at once!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

Are you forgetting that you gain CP every Command Phase, so 2x a round?

Of course I haven't, but some armies are more built around strategems than others, csm being one of those, and until they fix our core units that means we're starting behind armies that now have an excess of needed cp.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected

Interesting they have basically gone semi ITC with the missions, e.g. you pic objs

That's less than a double battalion. If there's no way to get more cp csm are going to be hurting.

Yeah they're borrowing from ITC for the missions. Somewhere Ishuga is probably not happy. (Not so sure if I am).

hurting even worse with SIX POINT CULTISTS wooot! - perhaps everything is getting a hike

Actually, perhaps with the CP thing 3K is going to be the new 2K because 20pt incessors is about the same % increase

Eh they said in average points go up. Yes 6 pts cultist. Ig troopers, immortals, sob troopers, tanks etc all are getting changes. Not sdame % though.

And hopefully 3k doesn't become new standard. Whole point is to quicken games and reduce stuff on board. If players nullify that they lose all rights to complain about prices.

Oh and mid game cp generation seems to be thing. 12cp at 2k won't be all you have


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm betting within a year the new tourney standard will be above 2000 pts and eventually the standard model count will be larger than now despite points going up slightly.

Well would fit bill. Players making 40k more expensive yet complain about price of 40k

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Latro_ wrote:wow CP at 2k a lot lower than expected[/img]

No kidding. My usual Dark Eldar build just lost like 8CP, possibly more depending on how additional Deatchments work.

tneva82 wrote:Hopefully they have improved them somehow so scenarios won'' be marine gunline favouring like itc

Doesn't sound like it if they're wanting you to select them based on your army's "narrative".

They might give you extra CP still for Battleforged and perhaps a bonus if you went Brigade? I dunno but I was doing Marine Brigade in the first place so I have the same amount of CP.

We know you gain command points in the command phase. Presumably, you will have fewer at the start of the game because each turn you will gain some, which is a very good thing IMO. Reduce the number of "big CP wombo combos" increase the number of CPs tthat get used on later turns of the game.

While I hate the wombo combo play style as well, they need to fix the armies that they've shoehorned into it. And why have cultists gone up 50% but intercessors only 17%? I don't play cultists but many csm players do, and that seems a bit biased.

I mean, as I couched my own trepidation with that: We know that we will be seeing reworks to how terrain and morale both work. If either of them are reworked in such a way that large horde units are advantaged (Likely, IMO) then cultists being less cheap and cheerful makes sense.

We also know that Actions, which are things you give up your normal offensive actions to accomplish, are a major factor in mission design. This greatly encourages MSU cheapo units that don't care if they don't get to shoot or fight. Hopefully there will be some restrictions on who can Action (lookin' at you, Tau with your drones...) but that is another thing that could make sense.

This isn't apologism. I'm not saying that GW in their infinite wisdom have obviously masterfully balanced all points and the currently strongest troop choice unit in the game is now reasonable for 20pts instead of 17. I'm saying that we just don't have enough info at this point to react...at all to this information. Which I would say is probably on purpose.