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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Then you wouldn't gain the increased granularity in point balance between units, the right thing to do is to increase the scale to allow for more subtle changes. There was a huge mess on the forum where people wanted Guardsmen to go from 4 to 5 pts, but then that would mean Veterans would have to go from 5 to 6, and then why bother using a Veteran when x unit is already 6 pts... And so forth. If they multiply all values by two we can have 8 pts Guardsmen that go up to 9 pts, while the Veteran stays at 10 or 11. Something like that.

Another solution is making you buy guardsmen by pack of two, three, or even 5. That's how Warmachine does it. It allows much much smaller point values while keeping some granularity.

Emulating Warmachine isn't really a recipe for broading the appeal (and success) of your wargame though.

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

I'm pretty sure there are 0 CSM players who put Cultist in their armies to do the job that Intercessors do in a SM army. Other than both being Troops choices, they are still completely different units, as BrianDavion noted.

the_scotsman wrote:

Audustum wrote:
As Custodes, I fear what across the board points increases will do to my army.

...Make it even cheaper to buy and collect a full army?

Seriously, how is this a downside to literally anybody? Does anyone ENJOY spending 2 hours painting a 4-point horde troop model?

Oh, right, people love it when you do that. What they want is to field 10 space marines and make pew pew noises shooting your horde models off the table.

My troops are like 50 PPM. :(. It's not a question of having all my toys, it's a question of even being able to make a take all comers list at all

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Emulating Warmachine isn't really a recipe for broading the appeal (and success) of your wargame though.

That's harsh. In my opinion, they did a lot of things well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
My troops are like 50 PPM.

"Woah, that's very cheap" thinks the Knight player reading this .
Hopefully it will turn out alright.

 alextroy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

I'm pretty sure there are 0 CSM players who put Cultist in their armies to do the job that Intercessors do in a SM army. Other than both being Troops choices, they are still completely different units, as BrianDavion noted.

There are also 0 Eldarain's who said they do/are.

This entire back and forth stems from me not using the clearest phrasing I could on the points increase sentence and a reading comprehension issue conflating the factions with specific units.

My point:
Codex Space Marines and their overdeveloped subfactions are coming out of this edition change with nothing negatively affecting them (that we've seen) despite being clearly the most powerful armies currently.

Everything that is currently being relied on to combat them is taking hits.

And yes their superior troop unit is taking a smaller price increase than their nemesis' superior troop unit (despite the Intercessors being one of the best units in the game currently troop or otherwise)

 alextroy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

I'm pretty sure there are 0 CSM players who put Cultist in their armies to do the job that Intercessors do in a SM army. Other than both being Troops choices, they are still completely different units, as BrianDavion noted.

Not really...

Okay, so, savvy, what DOES a unit of intercessors and cultists do in this, the current end of 8th meta, do?

For a certain build of marines, intercessors make up a tough to kill chaff wall. For some builds of chaos, cultists make a large chaff wall. They're pretty comparable here. Iron hands intercessors and abbandon backed cultists often have the same job.

How about kicking out a large plurality of anti infantry firepower? Intercessors in tac doctrine using vet intercessor trait verse cultists using VotlW and maybe even slaanesh double shooting. There's a good comparison there.


The main difference is simply, GW has made intercessors increasingly valuable, and cultists increasingly unvaluable. There was a point that a blob of 30 cultists could and did do anything you wanted 10 intercessors to do, but vastly better. Now it is the reverse.

There really isn't that many roles in the game, there's only a handful that any unit fits in to.

Semper wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The lack of a 1500 pt tier is undoubtedly a conscious effort to dissuade sub-2k games.

Yeah that is weird how its not linear.
It should be going up in increments of 500, but it starts jumping by 1000 past the 500 point tier.
I guess 1500 points gives you 6CP then, instead of 9? I hope this doesn't mean that you technically aren't allowed to play games from 1001-1999 points, which would just be weird design.

It clearly goes up by 3CP per 500pts in the chart shown...

They didn't list it though. They are tiers, after all.
It is true though that you get 3CP for every 500 points. But what about something unusual, such as 750 points or 1850 points?
750 points would give you, what, 4.5 CP? How do you use half a CP?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Emulating Warmachine isn't really a recipe for broading the appeal (and success) of your wargame though.

That's harsh. In my opinion, they did a lot of things well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
My troops are like 50 PPM.

"Woah, that's very cheap" thinks the Knight player reading this .
Hopefully it will turn out alright.

Can knight legally play 500 at all?

stratigo wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Emulating Warmachine isn't really a recipe for broading the appeal (and success) of your wargame though.

That's harsh. In my opinion, they did a lot of things well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
My troops are like 50 PPM.

"Woah, that's very cheap" thinks the Knight player reading this .
Hopefully it will turn out alright.

Can knight legally play 500 at all?

Amiriger Spam?

People are upset about ONLY 12 CP at 2k? I always had to jump through hoops to get that many and I'm extremely happy to now have them without severely restricting my choices.

I'm exited for the new edition. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be better than 8th? Most likely, and I was already relatively happy with 8th.

The way they are talking in the streams makes me believe that they are actually aware of 8th's issues in both competitive and narrativ play so they seem to be on the right track

It is 12 at the start, yes? You can gain more throughout the game, if I recall

Ragnar69 wrote:
People are upset about ONLY 12 CP at 2k? I always had to jump through hoops to get that many and I'm extremely happy to now have them without severely restricting my choices.

I'm exited for the new edition. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be better than 8th? Most likely, and I was already relatively happy with 8th.

The way they are talking in the streams makes me believe that they are actually aware of 8th's issues in both competitive and narrativ play so they seem to be on the right track

Similar position. My armies over the past year or so have ranged from 5-10 CP. Starting with 12 (and running a single codex) makes me pretty happy.

stratigo wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

I'm pretty sure there are 0 CSM players who put Cultist in their armies to do the job that Intercessors do in a SM army. Other than both being Troops choices, they are still completely different units, as BrianDavion noted.

Not really...

Okay, so, savvy, what DOES a unit of intercessors and cultists do in this, the current end of 8th meta, do?

For a certain build of marines, intercessors make up a tough to kill chaff wall. For some builds of chaos, cultists make a large chaff wall. They're pretty comparable here. Iron hands intercessors and abbandon backed cultists often have the same job.

How about kicking out a large plurality of anti infantry firepower? Intercessors in tac doctrine using vet intercessor trait verse cultists using VotlW and maybe even slaanesh double shooting. There's a good comparison there.


The main difference is simply, GW has made intercessors increasingly valuable, and cultists increasingly unvaluable. There was a point that a blob of 30 cultists could and did do anything you wanted 10 intercessors to do, but vastly better. Now it is the reverse.

There really isn't that many roles in the game, there's only a handful that any unit fits in to.

In 8th Cultists largely gained value from being easy to spam for large amounts of CP on the cheap. Everything after that was just a bonus.

In 9th they're still a cheap unit who can be easilly tossed onto objectives to perform actions without investing a large amount of points into them or losing much of your army's damage out put.

An Intercessor Squad not shooting or punching things is a much larger relative chunk of the army not killing things.

That's just an off the top of my head thought though, there may be more going on that we don't know. Like maybe hordes get AoS morale mechanics (+1Ld for every 10 models in a unit).

I'm curious about this channeling thing you can do on objectives. There's clearly more to it, as it talks about active and progressive, and its odd how the rule doesn't explicitly states that you can't do anything while channelling, as you'd think there would be a trade off between getting more VP and being able to do something.

So I have a hypothesis - there's going to be a paragraph in the rule book that explains how this mechanic works. Units that choose to gain VP this way can't do anything, can't move, can't shoot, can't even fight in CC until they are done. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
This would tie in to what they said about needing troops, and give troop units more value than being just a tax unit.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm curious about this channeling thing you can do on objectives. There's clearly more to it, as it talks about active and progressive, and its odd how the rule doesn't explicitly states that you can't do anything while channelling, as you'd think there would be a trade off between getting more VP and being able to do something.

So I have a hypothesis - there's going to be a paragraph in the rule book that explains how this mechanic works. Units that choose to gain VP this way can't do anything, can't move, can't shoot, can't even fight in CC until they are done. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
This would tie in to what they said about needing troops, and give troop units more value than being just a tax unit.

From WHC describing actions:

This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission.

If you're performing an action you can't shoot (and likely can't charge) that turn. In the case of psykers, they cast a psychic power for VP instead of one of their normal powers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm curious about this channeling thing you can do on objectives. There's clearly more to it, as it talks about active and progressive, and its odd how the rule doesn't explicitly states that you can't do anything while channelling, as you'd think there would be a trade off between getting more VP and being able to do something.

So I have a hypothesis - there's going to be a paragraph in the rule book that explains how this mechanic works. Units that choose to gain VP this way can't do anything, can't move, can't shoot, can't even fight in CC until they are done. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
This would tie in to what they said about needing troops, and give troop units more value than being just a tax unit.

From WHC describing actions:

This creates dynamic moments where you may need to decide between firing at the enemy or bravely accomplishing a mission.

If you're performing an action you can't shoot (and likely can't charge) that turn. In the case of psykers, they cast a psychic power for VP instead of one of their normal powers.

Interesting, I missed that.
We'll see if troops get special treatment.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
.

That would make sense in the crunch but be nonsense in the fluff.
Why would a less trained, basic infantry unit be more capable of performing actions while remaining battle operative than better trained and equipped elite units?
I hope they don't pull something like that. Total immersion breaker.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Can't believe it. GW promised that 40k worked great at every point level, and yet you're telling me I get the same number of CP at 5000pts as I do at 3000? The liars.

Sorry, my tired brain thought we could use a slight bit of levity from the legitimate worries people are having.

well technically at 5k you might have less as you'll have to spend CP unlocking detachments for your extra units compared to 3k XD

DanielFM wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
.

That would make sense in the crunch but be nonsense in the fluff.
Why would a less trained, basic infantry unit be more capable of performing actions while remaining battle operative than better trained and equipped elite units?
I hope they don't pull something like that. Total immersion breaker.

More immersion breaking than a tank or a unit of terminators being unable to control an objective, because a grot is next to them?
Because that's basically what objective secured is.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
. An exception do with would be troops, which can still shoot and fight.
.

That would make sense in the crunch but be nonsense in the fluff.
Why would a less trained, basic infantry unit be more capable of performing actions while remaining battle operative than better trained and equipped elite units?
I hope they don't pull something like that. Total immersion breaker.

More immersion breaking than a tank or a unit of terminators being unable to control an objective, because a grot is next to them?
Because that's basically what objective secured is.

And I would argue on that inconsistency, saying different units should have values per model when it comes to claiming an objective.

The pts thing is interesting. Because bodies on the ground with these actions etc might be worth a lot tactically.

Also what if a Chaos marine only goes up to say 12 or even stays at 11? He now costs twice as much as a cultist and about half as much as an intercessor.

This is the kinda balance shift i think we'll see, more drastic pts changes on some units than in others. Currently in 8th a CSM isnt worth the 3ish cultists you can get for him and the mere 6pt jump for loyalist marines get to make em an intercessor is equally meh on the other end.

Will of course be a complete shambles if (or is it when) they get it wrong because there will be points gaps in units the likes of which we might not have seen before. The cultist may have gone up more as a % than the intercessor but their points gap has actually increased, this is probably a tame example of whats to come.

I was hoping hordes would get a point discount if you take them in full sized units, like age of sigmar where units have a base cost and if taken at max size they get a discount to encourage you taking them in fluffy hordes, instead of MSU.

Daemonettes for example are 11pts each, but if you take 30 in a single unit , the unit only costs 300pts which is a 9% discount

 Rydria wrote:
I was hoping hordes would get a point discount if you take them in full sized units, like age of sigmar where units have a base cost and if taken at max size they get a discount to encourage you taking them in fluffy hordes, instead of MSU

Especially considering the max hits for blasts changes.

I wonder how many things require giving up action for interaction. *stares at the 2 knight types and monoarmies idea...*

you'll want something cheap to interact with the points to not lose a good chunk of firepower.

 Rydria wrote:
I was hoping hordes would get a point discount if you take them in full sized units, like age of sigmar where units have a base cost and if taken at max size they get a discount to encourage you taking them in fluffy hordes, instead of MSU.

Daemonettes for example are 11pts each, but if you take 30 in a single unit , the unit only costs 300pts which is a 9% discount

Not every single unit in AoS gets discounts. Only certain Battleline units get those discounts.

There is still a bit of room for that to come to pass, but even then I wouldn't say the "fluffy hordes" bit is. I mean, there's a discount for Sequitors...an 'elite' faction choice.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Almost everything shown is good for Marines so far. Horde damage buff. Reduction in starting CP when they are one of the least reliant on it. Soup penalties while they have extra buffs for "choosing" to mono faction. Lesser points increase than their mirror.

Will take seeing what non Marine 9th books look like but the reigning champ is looking almost unscathed so far.

.. in what world are CULTISTS the mirror of intercessors. they're completely differant units with completely differant goals, yes they're both troops but that doesn't make them mirrors at all.

Mirror as in the armies Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

Beautifully nitpicked though. I'll edit it to avoid my point being sidestepped so easily.

I'm pretty sure there are 0 CSM players who put Cultist in their armies to do the job that Intercessors do in a SM army. Other than both being Troops choices, they are still completely different units, as BrianDavion noted.

Not really...

Okay, so, savvy, what DOES a unit of intercessors and cultists do in this, the current end of 8th meta, do?

For a certain build of marines, intercessors make up a tough to kill chaff wall. For some builds of chaos, cultists make a large chaff wall. They're pretty comparable here. Iron hands intercessors and abbandon backed cultists often have the same job.

How about kicking out a large plurality of anti infantry firepower? Intercessors in tac doctrine using vet intercessor trait verse cultists using VotlW and maybe even slaanesh double shooting. There's a good comparison there.


The main difference is simply, GW has made intercessors increasingly valuable, and cultists increasingly unvaluable. There was a point that a blob of 30 cultists could and did do anything you wanted 10 intercessors to do, but vastly better. Now it is the reverse.

There really isn't that many roles in the game, there's only a handful that any unit fits in to.

In 8th Cultists largely gained value from being easy to spam for large amounts of CP on the cheap. Everything after that was just a bonus.

In 9th they're still a cheap unit who can be easilly tossed onto objectives to perform actions without investing a large amount of points into them or losing much of your army's damage out put.

An Intercessor Squad not shooting or punching things is a much larger relative chunk of the army not killing things.

That's just an off the top of my head thought though, there may be more going on that we don't know. Like maybe hordes get AoS morale mechanics (+1Ld for every 10 models in a unit).

I'm sorry, but this isn't correct. Cultists when they were used competitively made up a core part of the offensive force of a chaos army. 30 cultists rapid firing with plus 1 to hit, plus 1 to wound, full to hit rerolls, was a very strong combination for much of 8th edition and featured in a few top 8 chaos lists. Cultists were then nerfed and no longer had the same efficiency for points and filtered out. They aren't notably better than other choices (like nurglings) for battalion filler. If you are spamming cultists, you are probably still trying to make the abaddon blob work, which is still fairly good, just not tope tables good. Or just making a bad list.

Intercessors were, at one point, completely unused for anything competitive. They were, flatly, bad at the start of 8th, and GW had to repeatedly buff them. All those buffs have now, of course, compounded to where intercessors are probably really too good for their points when they can stack all of them. But the issue is, they're not great without those stacked buffs, which is a bit of a quandry in how to balance then because not even all space marines take full buff advantage.

I’m just glad I didn’t invest in the latest chapter approved just for it to be invalidated so soon.

Speaking of CA, the latest one has some really cool missions. Are they just... gone now?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Speaking of CA, the latest one has some really cool missions. Are they just... gone now?

Once 9th drops, yes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Speaking of CA, the latest one has some really cool missions. Are they just... gone now?

Hopefully they updated them for 9th, or they aren't too hard to convert over to the new gameplay.