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it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

This also makes possible to still make tanks not be able to fire.

I mean, if you touch a battle cannon leman russ, if we assume the battle cannon is a blast weapon and it can't shoot in meele, if you survive the sponsons weapons then you keep it from firing.

It is still possible to tag a vehicle so it doesnt shoot. It just makes it harder, and not "Ah, my single cultists/nurgling base touched your land raider, I'm sorry it becomes useless "

The overuse of "that" is also amateurish. I wonder if it is quoted text from the 9th rulebook.

 Galas wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So if I am in Engagement Range, only heavy weapons suffer a penalty and not Rapid Fire or Assault weapons?

it kinda makes sense. Most assault or rapid fire weapons vehicles and monsters have are normally auxiliary weapons.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Terrain density will break up LoS across the table, meaning vehicles will move more.

-1 to hit when moving heavy weapons only applies to Infantry.

Yeah, cause that worked so well for the Ironhands supplement.

Well now everyone has it. Which honestly might bring vehicles back into the game properly again.

Not vehicles in general, just the ones that were already borderline. Look for WAY MORE flyer spam, untouchable annhiliation barges, Wave serpents everywhere, etc. All else equal, Armies with a large vehicle selection like Eldar, guard, and marines will see a massive buff while armies like SoB, Harlies, and Orkz(large selection of vehicles, not that many heavy weapons), will see almost no benefit.

Obviously the rest of the systems inlcuding terrain rules, points bumps, etc, will certainly modulate the impact this change has on the game overall, it is certainly something to be aware of going forward.

With the limit of minuses to hit eldar flyer spam is heavely nerfed. The vehicles that were good, are good with or without the -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, but theres a TON of vehicles out there that were trash because of that. Many shooting ork ones, demon engines, many imperial guard ones, etc... nearly everything that had a BS of 4+ or 5+ and heavy weapons.

Any terrain rules that make movement more valuable and LoS more difficult heavily benefit flyers, so that should help mitigate the loss of -3 for Eldar flyers while also heavily pushing other flyers up. Add in no more penalty to move and shoot and flyers like the StormTalon and StormHawk, who were already only just barely out of competitive contention after the IH nerfs, could become easy 3 ofs for marines.

As for the vehicles that were trash, why would you take them if the vehicles that were good get to ignore -1 to hit when moving as well? There are some cases where it helps prop up a bad vehicle to be in line with other choice, but most of the time it's just moving everything up linearly.

If your army didn't have any good vehicles before, the -1 to hit change will be pretty impactful, but keep in mind that the armies that DID have good vehicles have it now too. So your manticore is better relative to a guardsman now but it's exactly the same as it was versus a Chaplain Dread or an Annhilation Barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

Mortifiers can turn their heavy flamers into pistols. Which does literally nothing now unless they're suddenly not a vehicle.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
... while armies like SoB... will see almost no benefit.

You don't think Sisters benefit from this? Immolators can keep firing even when engaged in combat.

Makes the Immolator better if nothing else.

Interesting that they’ve now defined “engagement range” as 1”. That clarifies the working of the “cut them down” strategem.

 bullyboy wrote:
it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

Yeah, it's really surprising no one mentioned it.

So many Admech models or rules lose part of their value due to this change.
New Mars canticle: one half of it is useless
Onager Dunecrawler+Skorpius variants: one useless rule

I would expect their price will reflect them being "less better" than they were before.

Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

@ERJAK you can not compare a unit just to the BEST unit of is type to value is worth. Theres many units that were barely playable, the combos were there, but they just didn't hit the mark to become competitive usable (Even if not the TOP CHOICES of the game) but with this they are helped. The relative power spike to enter into competitive range is better for those units.


Most competitive choices were actually things that ignore penalties or had ways to ignore them, as you pointed out Iron Hands pre nerf, the Eldar Flyers with the Exarc Power to be BS 2+ (Or ignore the -1 to hit, I don't remember), etc...

But when everybody has access to the same, those exceptions become less powerfull comparatively speaking.

ERJAK wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So if I am in Engagement Range, only heavy weapons suffer a penalty and not Rapid Fire or Assault weapons?

it kinda makes sense. Most assault or rapid fire weapons vehicles and monsters have are normally auxiliary weapons.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Terrain density will break up LoS across the table, meaning vehicles will move more.

-1 to hit when moving heavy weapons only applies to Infantry.

Yeah, cause that worked so well for the Ironhands supplement.

Well now everyone has it. Which honestly might bring vehicles back into the game properly again.

Not vehicles in general, just the ones that were already borderline. Look for WAY MORE flyer spam, untouchable annhiliation barges, Wave serpents everywhere, etc. All else equal, Armies with a large vehicle selection like Eldar, guard, and marines will see a massive buff while armies like SoB, Harlies, and Orkz(large selection of vehicles, not that many heavy weapons), will see almost no benefit.

Obviously the rest of the systems inlcuding terrain rules, points bumps, etc, will certainly modulate the impact this change has on the game overall, it is certainly something to be aware of going forward.

With the limit of minuses to hit eldar flyer spam is heavely nerfed. The vehicles that were good, are good with or without the -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, but theres a TON of vehicles out there that were trash because of that. Many shooting ork ones, demon engines, many imperial guard ones, etc... nearly everything that had a BS of 4+ or 5+ and heavy weapons.

Any terrain rules that make movement more valuable and LoS more difficult heavily benefit flyers, so that should help mitigate the loss of -3 for Eldar flyers while also heavily pushing other flyers up. Add in no more penalty to move and shoot and flyers like the StormTalon and StormHawk, who were already only just barely out of competitive contention after the IH nerfs, could become easy 3 ofs for marines.

As for the vehicles that were trash, why would you take them if the vehicles that were good get to ignore -1 to hit when moving as well? There are some cases where it helps prop up a bad vehicle to be in line with other choice, but most of the time it's just moving everything up linearly.

If your army didn't have any good vehicles before, the -1 to hit change will be pretty impactful, but keep in mind that the armies that DID have good vehicles have it now too. So your manticore is better relative to a guardsman now but it's exactly the same as it was versus a Chaplain Dread or an Annhilation Barge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

Mortifiers can turn their heavy flamers into pistols. Which does literally nothing now unless they're suddenly not a vehicle.

Sure but that is all assumptions made based on the current edition, we already know things like PotMS are going to have to change day one, therefore we already know there's going to be a significant change in how a lot of vehicles function.

Even stuff that doesn't get hit by the Day 1 errata will probably be tweaked when their given codex comes out.

Put simply, still too early to make assumptions.

I'm wondering if Power of the Machine Spirit might get changed to no penalty for shooting heavy weapons into melee.

And I wonder how Grinding Advance will work for Leman Russes.

DanielFM wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

Yeah, it's really surprising no one mentioned it.

So many Admech models or rules lose part of their value due to this change.
New Mars canticle: one half of it is useless
Onager Dunecrawler+Skorpius variants: one useless rule

I would expect their price will reflect them being "less better" than they were before.

Or that's one of the rules that doesn't make it or gets tweaked, no reason to assume it's set in stone. They already said they're more taking a "best-of" approach to PA stuff rather than a set-in-stone port.

 bullyboy wrote:
it will be now interesting to see the Day 1 errata as there are so many things that revolve around the shooting heavy weapons while moving rule. Just off the top of my head..
Machine Spirit for land raiders and storm ravens...what will it do now?
Crystal Targeting Matrix for Eldar
Ravenwing Impeccable Mobility Warlord Trait (which was soooo good, but now redundant)
I'm sure there are many, many more.

yes, Land Raider Crusaders will benefit...want to tag a unit with 24 hurricane bolter shots (probably at -1AP too), 12 assault cannon shots, 4 storm bolter shots? Ouch.
I'm just excited that the Corvus Blackstar is now looking OK again, and Ravenwing land speeders for days.

Redeemer seems genuinely scary if use aggressively? Not only is it packing a squad of whatever, but it’s perfectly capable of wading in itself.

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Earthshakers are likely blast weapons. Actually, I think most of the weapons you mentioned will be declared blast weapons which can -not- shoot into melee.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
... while armies like SoB... will see almost no benefit.

You don't think Sisters benefit from this? Immolators can keep firing even when engaged in combat.

Makes the Immolator better if nothing else.

Which would be great if the immolator wasn't absolute trash regardless of being -1 to hit or not. An extra 16% chance to hit it's whopping TWO melta shots isn't going to fix the thing being about massively overpriced. And being able to fire in combat would be amazing if it wasn't already a nearly 150 point steaming crater by the time that ability would actually come up (Shoot, charge, survive the fight phase, opponent doesn't back out, survive another fight phaste, shoot. Or the other option 'get shot up by all these not -1 to hit tanks, eat a charge, miraculously not die in fight phase, shoot, die in next fight phase.). No one took immos before, this will not change that unless dominions are allowed to scout again.

Also, if H.B.M.C.'s reading comprehension was better, he would have realized I said it would benefit armies with more vehicles MORE than armies like Sisters that only have a small handful of vehilces(thus seeing a very small benefit which would technically lead to a net nerf). Not that they wouldn't benefit at all.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm wondering if Power of the Machine Spirit might get changed to no penalty for shooting heavy weapons into melee.

And I wonder how Grinding Advance will work for Leman Russes.

I think it might almost make more sense that they can fire out of combat. The crew handles the swarming combatants but the Machine Spirit focuses on it's goal. Could definitely reinforce units like Land Raiders being "spearhead" units.

Just supposition, not based on anything.

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Nope, they specifically said in the stream that blast weapons could not be used.

THis next part is assumption, but I am guessing blast weapons will get a min range value since they are not mentioned in that rule.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
... while armies like SoB... will see almost no benefit.

You don't think Sisters benefit from this? Immolators can keep firing even when engaged in combat.

Makes the Immolator better if nothing else.

Which would be great if the immolator wasn't absolute trash regardless of being -1 to hit or not. An extra 16% chance to hit it's whopping TWO melta shots isn't going to fix the thing being about massively overpriced.

Also, if H.B.M.C.'s reading comprehension was better, he would have realized I said it would benefit armies with more vehicles MORE than armies like Sisters that only have a small handful of vehilces. Not that they wouldn't benefit at all.

Take the Heavy Flamer or the Heavy Bolter version then. Why would you mention the melta one out of three options, two of which are better?

I am just happy that daemonengines can now actually be played as the hybrids they were intended.
Imagine a working defiler.

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Those big guns are most likely going to be blast weapons, which they state will not be able to fire. (Unless I read it wrong) Also, I am sure anything with a minimum range won't be able to be fired... under the minimum range...

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm wondering if Power of the Machine Spirit might get changed to no penalty for shooting heavy weapons into melee.

And I wonder how Grinding Advance will work for Leman Russes.

I think it might almost make more sense that they can fire out of combat. The crew handles the swarming combatants but the Machine Spirit focuses on it's goal. Could definitely reinforce units like Land Raiders being "spearhead" units.

Just supposition, not based on anything.

I could see that, but IIRC all the weapons are Machine Spirit controlled.

At least I think they are based on Rynn's Might and it's Ork killing escapade.

Domandi wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Those big guns are most likely going to be blast weapons, which they state will not be able to fire. (Unless I read it wrong) Also, I am sure anything with a minimum range won't be able to be fired... under the minimum range...

Ok, then a leman russ can fire its battle cannon against a unit of grots in engagement range ?

 p5freak wrote:

Domandi wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Those big guns are most likely going to be blast weapons, which they state will not be able to fire. (Unless I read it wrong) Also, I am sure anything with a minimum range won't be able to be fired... under the minimum range...

Ok, then a leman russ can fire its battle cannon against a unit of grots in engagement range ?

They -specifically- mentioned the Battle Cannon being blast.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am just happy that daemonengines can now actually be played as the hybrids they were intended.
Imagine a working defiler.

Really ? You are hitting on 5s with your daemonengine, if enemy units are in engagement range of it, and you can only target those units.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am just happy that daemonengines can now actually be played as the hybrids they were intended.
Imagine a working defiler.

Really ? You are hitting on 5s with your daemonengine, if enemy units are in engagement range of it, and you can only target those units.

Nope! You can target beyond those units but when you go to resolve the attacks, if the units in engagement range are not slain then you cannot fire outside of those.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Domandi wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Those big guns are most likely going to be blast weapons, which they state will not be able to fire. (Unless I read it wrong) Also, I am sure anything with a minimum range won't be able to be fired... under the minimum range...

Ok, then a leman russ can fire its battle cannon against a unit of grots in engagement range ?

They -specifically- mentioned the Battle Cannon being blast.

Sounds like a lot of vehicles arent gonna be able to fire their guns when enemy units are in engagement range. I wonder if any main guns wont be blast weapons. Sounds like you need sponsons on vehicles.

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

...No? presumably all those are blast weapons?

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am just happy that daemonengines can now actually be played as the hybrids they were intended.
Imagine a working defiler.

Really ? You are hitting on 5s with your daemonengine, if enemy units are in engagement range of it, and you can only target those units.

I assume they are more excited about the move and fire without -1. Daemon Engines were supposed to be able to do shooting and melee, but they could never do the melee part as moving to get into combat meant hitting on 5's with the shooting

Domandi wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Really GW ? A basilisk can now target an enemy unit in engagement range with its earthshaker cannon ? A shadowsword can target grots in engagement range with its volcano cannon ? How about a plagueburst crawler with its plagueburst mortar, which has 12-48" range ? It can also target enemy units in engagement range ?

Those big guns are most likely going to be blast weapons, which they state will not be able to fire. (Unless I read it wrong) Also, I am sure anything with a minimum range won't be able to be fired... under the minimum range...

Yeah , pretty sure I heard that too.
Blast weapons could not be fired into units the tank / monster is engaged with.

However you will be able to declare firing secondary weapons into engaged infantry, and declare a further target for the battle cannon. If you clear out the chaff, the battle cannon will be able to shoot the other target, if you fail to clear out the chaff, you battle cannon shot is wasted.

 Galas wrote:
@ERJAK you can not compare a unit just to the BEST unit of is type to value is worth. Theres many units that were barely playable, the combos were there, but they just didn't hit the mark to become competitive usable (Even if not the TOP CHOICES of the game) but with this they are helped. The relative power spike to enter into competitive range is better for those units.


Most competitive choices were actually things that ignore penalties or had ways to ignore them, as you pointed out Iron Hands pre nerf, the Eldar Flyers with the Exarc Power to be BS 2+ (Or ignore the -1 to hit, I don't remember), etc...

But when everybody has access to the same, those exceptions become less powerfull comparatively speaking.

I agree, my greater point is just that this is not going to make vehicles that were bad good. It's not going to fix the hunter or the stalker or the Immolator. What it's going to do is make borderline vehicles, ones that didn't already have ignore -1, good enough to maybe be strong competitive options.

I guess I'm going for a temper your expectations type thing. You'll probably be able to feel a lot better about bringing a Razorback or a Stormtalon but you're not going to suddenly see a Hammerhead spam list take LVO because it doesn't get -1 to hit for moving anymore.