Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

gungo wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Hordes are definitely fethed considering that they are keeping the +1 to saving throws

To be fair a substantial change happened it’s based on per model NO longer requiring the entire unit to be on or wholly within.

That's true, but the bonus itself had to change to something that could equally benefit every army, instead we still have Daemons just searching for no LoS whilst disregarding any bonus save

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Really though this should have been the "dense cover", but whatever...

I think you've nailed it here. The rules make it sound more like dense cover. Heavy to me implies a defensive position, whereas they are descriping it as terrain where it's tough to move/fight

the_scotsman wrote:
So, so far, our keywords are:

Light Cover - +1 sv vs shooting
Heavy Cover - +1sv vs non-charging melee
Obscuring - Blocks LOS if 5" or taller and not for Flyers or 18W+

Fairly obvious:

Unstable - Probably the dangerous terrain rule mentioned on stream
Scalable - Pretty clearly means you can climb it. It would be super cool IMO if climbing was given some better clearer rules than the current "you can just move up it" system.
Exposed Position - Probably a codification of the recent rule where if you're on top of a thing with no protection you don't get cover from it, given it's on an Armored Container
Breachable - I would guess that Breachable is a codification of the "infantry swarms and beasts can go through this" rule

Non-obvious:

"Dense Cover" - This was described on-stream as "Terrain where the terrain itself is blocking the bullets vs terrain that just makes it harder to see you like a forest which would be light cover." TBH I would LOVE to see the return of the 4+ cover save thru this rule, that would help out light infantry a ton.

"Defensible" - no clue.Could be Apoc-style ruin embarkation. Could be some kind of bonus vs chargers or something. Could be units inside it can shoot out of it?

They also mentioned terrain that slows down movement on stream, so I would expect some kind of "Impeding" keyword for area terrain.

I'd also be fine with Dense cover providing a -1 To Hit modifier against anything targeting the unit ala Killteam.

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

Doohicky wrote:
I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

I would love Defensible to be the rule from apocalypse where if you get close enough with all the models in your unit you can pick them up off the board, place them in the area terrain feature, and not have to worry about their individual model placement within that terrain piece for the purposes of LOS or enemies charging you.

The amount of time I've spent fiddling around trying to get all my models to be able to see out of windows or trying to place close combat models on upper floors I could probably have gotten a masters degree with.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Hordes are definitely fethed considering that they are keeping the +1 to saving throws

Yup, cover will continue to benefit power armour more than geq or weaker saves. Hordes are going to have it bad.

.

7 editions of people complaining cover saves unfairly benefited low armor save units. 7 editions of people saying a marine in cover should be harder to kill than a guardsmen in cover.

...now we are here.

lol

The most elegant solution would be a 5++ Cover save that gives +1 to Saving Throws if the model already has an equal save (Demons would be getting a 4++ without paying for the stratagem that is already capped at 4++, Marines would still be getting a 2+ and IG a 4+ in best case scenario)

Overall I like the sound of what they've done with terrain (especially now that we have some more detail from the WarCom article).

It doesn't solve the issues with TLOS, but I feel much better about terrain having a codified set of Universal Special Rules (y'know, like everything should have) rather than worthless "bespoke" rules and special cases/exceptions.

Means you can take anything (official GW kit or scratch built) and apply a simple set of universal rules to them.

This gives you a great deal of flexibility for changing the way games are played even over the same terrain. For example, you're playing a campaign and want to represent a once-robust city slowly being turned to ash as the fighting wears off, defensible heavy/light dense terrain can slowly just turn to light, or even unstable over time (or both!) and it means that you can apply them easily to new terrain pieces (and introduce new ones that can be used on existing pieces of terrain).

Imagine expanding this out to the way CityFight used to have tokens for different types of building (ammo dump, medical supplies, comm tower, etc.) and melding those into this system.

Scalable, expandable, flexible.

Very good GW.

Now fix Tyranids.

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I can shoot Magnus the Red, but he can't shoot me back because Obscuring.

Correct. Smaller things can hide from bigger things. I actually don't see a problem with this. You can "ambush" units natively within the rules without the need for an "ambush" special rule.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And how does cover give you a bonus in close combat? Like the Khorne Berzerker is chasing you around and around the crate or something? Or maybe you start using random bits of scenery to block incoming attacks, Jackie Chan style?

Remember when being in cover made you less vulnerable to charges? And then everyone got Frag Grenades that basically negated that. This is here to show that fighting HTH in heavy cover is difficult.

Really though this should have been the "dense cover", but whatever...

Not everyone got frag grenades. Some super shooty units didn't. Like daemonettes.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where putting a unit I'm trying to protect from CC into a terrain piece that's "Heavy" versus terrain that isn't really makes any sense. I'm scared of that initial charge, not a drawn out combat usually. Like if I expect them to survive the first round then want them to hold on while reinforcements come, yeah I guess I could see that. But a glass cannon shooting unit or something that will crumble in the first round, idk I don't see the draw.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

Except it doesn't solve melee's issues. It's a buff, but not where it's needed.

Melee units generally are not killed when their target punches back-their target is probably crippled, dead, and/or weak in melee. It's when the remnants Fall Back and they get blasted to smithereens from the rest of the army that they die.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh joy. My daemons can continue to gain no benefit from cover.

You do against AP0 weapons? You know you can choose to use their normal save, right?

Also is it just me or does Heavy Cover not give a bonus against shooting?

6+ armor. 5++ Invuln.

Oh, the "line troops". Well, think of it as you've always got cover even in the open? Things like Bloodcrushers still benefit.

Depends of the Daemon really. If your running Slaanesh your nips out, everything from other than the chariots is 6+ save, even the Keeper. That I expected though daemons haven't benefited from cover the last 5 editions? Anyway, the heavy cover penalty is worse, than blast. I'm used to picking up handfuls of models to get stuck in. Being even worse in melee after after completing the charge, well.... Hopefully, there's something, anything to make melee...better.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Not everyone got frag grenades. Some super shooty units didn't. Like daemonettes.

Ok, and? Not all units are created equal. In any case, I don't think Daemons as an army concept even made sense back then. All in reserve, then half on one turn and the rest on another. Why was the opposing army there? Did they know the Daemons were coming? Hoping they'd show up?

But I digress, I don't see an issue with either of the two rules you've raised.

I am having trouble understanding what this even means:

Another important point to note is that, even though Obscuring terrain blocks line of sight from one side to the other, a unit that’s INSIDE the terrain can still be freely targeted (though they will receive the benefit of cover if the terrain also has the Light Cover trait) and can give fire in return. However, the days of drawing line of sight through a gap in the wall and three consecutive windows to a unit on the opposite side of a huge building are over!

This seems to be saying that if you're in the middle of the ruined cathedral, the enemy can fire at you, but if you're on the far side of the ruined cathedral, it can't? In other words, people can see through one set of walls, but not two?

If so, this is a dramatic change from the ITC rules, that, far from increasing LOS blocking, dramatically reduces LOS blocking.

How does this interact with L-shaped terrain? If you are right behind the wall, are you now visible? Or are you invisible because there's only one set of walls and therefore you're not in the terrain any more, but behind it? How do we determine the footprint of three-walled terrain - is it square, or is it triangular, or is it just the shape of the three walls and standing inside the three walls isn't actually standing inside the three walls?

Another really unclearly worded rule for people to fight over. Yay.

Also, why oh why did they have to set it so you can still shoot at the Triumph even on the far side of a cathedral, even though it's just a bunch of infantry models carrying banners?

Finally, it seems bizarre that all these rules are just based on the principle of "agree with your opponent" with no framework for resolving any disagreements. Ultimately, any rule is "agree with your opponent," but we don't say "agree with your opponent on how many CP you start with," or "agree with your opponent on who goes first," or "agree with your opponent on what your model's armor save is." Why not provide some base rule to use when you and your opponent have trouble agreeing because he has a shooty army and wants an empty table and you don't think that's reasonable?

So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

does the obscured thing really do a number on knights?

as i understand it a 5" block say can be infront of a knight e.g. the knight is directly behind it and its as wide as its base but if can see over, it matters not.

If a marine is inline with that block on the other side of the board so long as the knight cant see draw los around (because it cant over) it cant shoot that marine. Even though it can see it

e.g.
k = knight, b= block, .... is the entire open board, m= marine
................................
KB...........................M
.................................

Doohicky wrote:
I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

The preview said terrain will affect to hit
My guess is defensible is -1 to hit from shooting?

Also my guess is all dense cover will also be light cover so while the unit receives a bonus to sv from shooting it won’t receive the bonus to melee from a charging unit? Also I’m wondering if the intention was niether the attacker nor defender should receive a bonus in melee when charged?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

You're being stridently unfair here blackfang.

You know I'll be first inline for an earned crack at GW. They haven't earned that here.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

It seems that way, but perhaps more cover rules are kept hidden away ATM (i doubt that though...). Kinda of a big letdown isn't it ?

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where putting a unit I'm trying to protect from CC into a terrain piece that's "Heavy" versus terrain that isn't really makes any sense. I'm scared of that initial charge, not a drawn out combat usually. Like if I expect them to survive the first round then want them to hold on while reinforcements come, yeah I guess I could see that. But a glass cannon shooting unit or something that will crumble in the first round, idk I don't see the draw.

I feel like typically if I'm defending a terrain piece, the opposing models dont get to get into it until they've killed some of my guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

It seems that way, but perhaps more cover rules are kept hidden away ATM (i doubt that though...). Kinda of a big letdown isn't it ?

Well, and it does seem that you don't need to be right next to Obstacle terrain to get the bonus, though that wasn't explicitly stated.

 addnid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

It seems that way, but perhaps more cover rules are kept hidden away ATM (i doubt that though...). Kinda of a big letdown isn't it ?

Yes. Yes it is.

So how are hordes gonna be competing now, when cover favors MSU Elites?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where putting a unit I'm trying to protect from CC into a terrain piece that's "Heavy" versus terrain that isn't really makes any sense. I'm scared of that initial charge, not a drawn out combat usually. Like if I expect them to survive the first round then want them to hold on while reinforcements come, yeah I guess I could see that. But a glass cannon shooting unit or something that will crumble in the first round, idk I don't see the draw.

I feel like typically if I'm defending a terrain piece, the opposing models dont get to get into it until they've killed some of my guys.
- - - - - - - -
That is my biggest hope ATM, and that you can place an objective there, can't be taken as you say "until they've killed some of my guys."

 addnid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

It seems that way, but perhaps more cover rules are kept hidden away ATM (i doubt that though...). Kinda of a big letdown isn't it ?

Considering the example terrain in the article have at least 4-5 rules not detailed in the article, why are you doubting we haven't seen all the rules?

gungo wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

The preview said terrain will affect to hit
My guess is defensible is -1 to hit from shooting?

Could be, true.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So at the end of the day the big hoopla about terrain being important boils down to the +1 save bonus sometimes, very rarely, also applies in melee.

It seems that way, but perhaps more cover rules are kept hidden away ATM (i doubt that though...). Kinda of a big letdown isn't it ?

Considering the example terrain in the article have at least 4-5 rules not detailed in the article, why are you doubting we haven't seen all the rules?

Ah ok, good then. Still hope. -1 to get hit is still possible then (not stackable as we know)

 addnid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Did you even read the rules or just decide they were bad without doing so?

It specifically says the +1 save does not apply if the attacking unit charged.

In fact the charging orks WILL get cover save and the ones being charged won't which is a benefit to the chargers

I stand corrected.

It's still a buff to shooting armies that they did not have before , in other rounds marines will have a 2+ save. You can argue its a bonus all round but it's kinda not because you want your CC units killing stuff in CC, if it is drawn out longer then its a win for shooty lists

I mean, it's kinda not though. It's much more likely to be a buff that the CHARGING army did not have before, especially fighting armies like space marines who get super duper taekwondo powers that make them punch more than fething eldar aspect warriors.

I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where putting a unit I'm trying to protect from CC into a terrain piece that's "Heavy" versus terrain that isn't really makes any sense. I'm scared of that initial charge, not a drawn out combat usually. Like if I expect them to survive the first round then want them to hold on while reinforcements come, yeah I guess I could see that. But a glass cannon shooting unit or something that will crumble in the first round, idk I don't see the draw.

I feel like typically if I'm defending a terrain piece, the opposing models dont get to get into it until they've killed some of my guys.
- - - - - - - -
That is my biggest hope ATM, and that you can place an objective there, can't be taken as you say "until they've killed some of my guys."

Well I mean think about it, you don't even need to know the full rule here. We're assuming, I hope, that "Area terrain " means yu dont' get cover until you're in the area. You put your unit in some heavy cover terrain, you place them so that enemy chargers can't get into the area until they've killed some troops. So that way, he can't enter into the terrain piece with all the models from his unit, and he doesn't get the cover bonus.

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

The preview said terrain will affect to hit
My guess is defensible is -1 to hit from shooting?

Could be, true.

Also my guess defensible will only be player point paid buildings such as wall of martyrs, aegis defense line, bastion etc...
giving a reason to pay for buildings but no one will do unless the aegis Is dirt cheap
Which means we might see aegis defense line spam again :p

gungo wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

The preview said terrain will affect to hit
My guess is defensible is -1 to hit from shooting?

Could be, true.

Also my guess defensible will only be player point paid buildings such as wall of martyrs, aegis defense line, bastion etc...
giving a reason to pay for buildings but no one will do unless the aegis Is dirt cheap

Ruins are Defensible. Whatever it is, it's free.

Perhaps a reason for taking "large units" will be that they cover enough of a terrain piece/area so as to block move any enemy units trying to enter ? But then several small units will achieve the same result (unless a rule appears like "only one unit can enter")

the_scotsman wrote:
So, so far, our keywords are:

Light Cover - +1 sv vs shooting
Heavy Cover - +1sv vs non-charging melee
Obscuring - Blocks LOS if 5" or taller and not for Flyers or 18W+

Fairly obvious:

Unstable - Probably the dangerous terrain rule mentioned on stream
Scalable - Pretty clearly means you can climb it. It would be super cool IMO if climbing was given some better clearer rules than the current "you can just move up it" system.
Exposed Position - Probably a codification of the recent rule where if you're on top of a thing with no protection you don't get cover from it, given it's on an Armored Container
Breachable - I would guess that Breachable is a codification of the "infantry swarms and beasts can go through this" rule

Non-obvious:

"Dense Cover" - This was described on-stream as "Terrain where the terrain itself is blocking the bullets vs terrain that just makes it harder to see you like a forest which would be light cover." TBH I would LOVE to see the return of the 4+ cover save thru this rule, that would help out light infantry a ton.

"Defensible" - no clue.Could be Apoc-style ruin embarkation. Could be some kind of bonus vs chargers or something. Could be units inside it can shoot out of it?

They also mentioned terrain that slows down movement on stream, so I would expect some kind of "Impeding" keyword for area terrain.

For some reason defensible makes me think of the bunker scene in Starship Troops, it makes me think of units behind barricades still being able to fire into the attacker in melee.