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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
.9%>0%

I wasn't claiming that it was a massive nerf to MSU, but it is a nerf.

And that's assuming your doom and floom about ATSKNF is right.

That's without any changes to ATSKNF. You have a 1/36 chance of failing morale with 3 guys dead from a 5 man squad, then a 1/3 chance of the last one fleeing.

This is where neg mods come into play.

Previously you had to go REALLY deep to have an effect and that required too much commitment to off a few marines. Now you can go broad. A -2 or -3 is relatively easy to achieve. Butcher cannons split firing and Haarken cover quite an area and that's -3 without effort (presuming BC stays that way). 3 dead is a 45% on marines in that scenario.

And then we remember Primaris have two wounds so removing a model is very useful.

I mean, it all kind of depends on how things shake out WRT what abilities become +attrition and what abilities become -LD.

Take my current setup for doing a LD bomb: I take an eldar hemlock, give it terrify to slap on to the most vulnerable unit, and I blitz in a Silent Shroud Solitaire with the Mask of Secrets sharing a Vanguard detachment with two death jesters.

The only real investment into LD-shenanigans is the death jesters (90pts total) and the Relic on the solitaire, so 1CP. The Hemlock is perfectly efficient without doing the LD-bomb.Taking Silent Shroud isnt' really much of an investment because I've souped my harlequins in, so it's just them.

I have Mindshock Pods+Mask of Secrets+Silent Shroud for -4LD on basically everything, plus an extra -1LD from Terrify and -2LD on anything I can cause a wound on with my jesters. Typically that translates to me getting to drop -7ld on one thing and -4LD on most other stuff. Also, with Silent Shroud my opponent has to roll 2 dice and take the highest on each LD test. Typically against primaris I'd split the hemlocks shots up and take 1-2 guys out from two squads that dind't get hit by the jester and won't be the target of the solitaire.

Under the current system, if I cause 1 casualty to a marine squad under those debuffs they take 5 casualties on average, and not taking any casualties is impossible, even if they get double ones on one of their rolls. Under the new system, it's all going to depend on how difficult it now becomes to actually TRIGGER a failed test, due to how many of my abilities get shifted over to +Attrition.

If none of them do, the LD bomb is basically useless. A failed test will cause 1-2 casualties, so even if I keep my current failure odds of "very good with even just one casualty" then the reward is going to be essentially nonexistent. If everything currently -LD becomes -Attrition, the reward would be ginormous...but I'll have absolutely zero means to trigger a failed test. Astronomically bad odds of managing to get a marine to fail, and in practicality loyalist marines are >50% of your opponent pool pretty much everywhere, so if it don't work vs rerolling LD8, then it's not a reliable tactic.

ESPECIALLY if Leadership is included in the "only -1 modifier" cap. that would SUUUUCK.

The optimal situation would be if LD was still uncapped, most -LD effects stayed, but the currently least impactful -LD effects (such as Terrify, Mask of Secrets, Coven of Dark Creed/Night Lords etc) became +Attrition effects. But I'm not holding my breath for that.

And if I had to place a bet, I'd say that this is probably the new Start Collecting, once Indomitus is long out of stock:



Unless someone remembers anything about the sprue layout that would make the above impossible without additional minis being included.

edit

Well, that one has the Doomstalker instead of the Reanimator so it would have to be somewhat different off the bat.

I'm just starting to look at 40k again, so may have missed something. Regarding the back and forth about whether the new morale rules will matter, has GW said whether or not stat lines are being changed? I saw the comment about AoS Stormcast having a LD of 6, is there a chance that 40k may head down that path? Adjust that stat to make more sense with the rule changes and have it make a difference.

 Sasori wrote:
Well, that one has the Doomstalker instead of the Reanimator so it would have to be somewhat different off the bat.

Perhaps the sprue layout is why that's a Doomstalker.

The Doomstalker is going to be one of the EZ2B kits alongside the Marine Go-Kart, the Turret and probably one or two other things. So if the Reanimator sprue is intertwined with some of the other characters, then replacing it with the Doomstalker makes sense.

bortass wrote:
I'm just starting to look at 40k again, so may have missed something. Regarding the back and forth about whether the new morale rules will matter, has GW said whether or not stat lines are being changed? I saw the comment about AoS Stormcast having a LD of 6, is there a chance that 40k may head down that path? Adjust that stat to make more sense with the rule changes and have it make a difference.

Nope. Old Codecs are still usable, so statlines ain't gonna be changing much.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if I had to place a bet, I'd say that this is probably the new Start Collecting, once Indomitus is long out of stock:



Unless someone remembers anything about the sprue layout that would make the above impossible without additional minis being included.

Or it could even be the Necron half of the actual starter once Indomitus turns out to be a marked up launch box, not a discounted starter but sells out anyway.

Sotahullu wrote:
New lore article on necrons:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/who-are-the-szarekhan-dynastygw-homepage-post-2/

Specifically targeted by both eldar and other necrons for millennia, they suffered massive casualties, but now that they are awake, they're magically dominant once again.
Who writes this stuff? Why are they doubling down on our-numbers-don't-matter for the new subfaction? Wouldn't it be slightly more interesting if someone faced an actual struggle for once?

Sounds like their dynasty trait will involve some sort of save or bonus vs psychic powers.


First ever technical paint for glowy effects. Wasn't that what the ghost paints were supposed to do? That odd blue and the green?

Today on Warhammer 40,000 Daily:

It's a jam packed #New40K show today, looking at the T'au Empire in the new edition, a new Necron dynasty, and Ephreal Stern!

They did say we could expect both the Lokhust and Doomstalker shortly after release.

I wonder if they are going to launch with boxes like the Lumineth or SoB in early august and have the full range release later?


The way they've gone at this release has been really different, so it's hard to tell.

Honestly morale should be simple and quick.
Leadership check:
2d6 plus models Lost vs leadership

Attrition:
1-10 model unit and lose d3 Wounds
11+ size unit and lose d6 wounds

Change bespoke rules to
*reroll on attrition
* reduce attrition by 1 wound
*attrition can’t be more then 1 Or 2 Wounds
* plus leadership
* neg leadership
* increase Attrition by 1 Or 2 wound
* reroll 2d6 leadership check (either or both die)
* doubles attrition (for extremely bad morale units like conscripts)


Very few units should ever be completely immune to morale
The best bespoke rules would limit models lost to 1-2 wounds

 Sasori wrote:
They did say we could expect both the Lokhust and Doomstalker shortly after release.

I wonder if they are going to launch with boxes like the Lumineth or SoB in early august and have the full range release later?

The way they've gone at this release has been really different, so it's hard to tell.

I'd say it's more akin to the EZ2B stuff that came out when AoS 2nd Ed came out. So really, how quickly did this, this, this, this, and this come out after the Soul Wars box?

From the new Dynasty article.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/who-are-the-szarekhan-dynastygw-homepage-post-2/

Szarekhan Crypteks gained a well-deserved reputation, in particular when it came to working with blackstone. So skilled are they now that even their standard foot-troops are given a small amount to shield them from the foul energies of the warp. With access to the finest resources, in addition to well-preserved wisdom and skill, the Szarekhan Dynasty are equipped with the most durable forms and the most destructive weaponry.

So, basically saying they will get a FNP vs psychic powers probably along with a deny on a 4+ strat or something.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

GW wrote:A new set of paints will be released to help you achieve that aged brass look, alongside our first-ever Technical paint formulated to create glowing effects!

That I gotta see.

Yes! Hope they do one in blue, would be great for plasma.

Kdash wrote:
From the new Dynasty article.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/who-are-the-szarekhan-dynastygw-homepage-post-2/

Szarekhan Crypteks gained a well-deserved reputation, in particular when it came to working with blackstone. So skilled are they now that even their standard foot-troops are given a small amount to shield them from the foul energies of the warp. With access to the finest resources, in addition to well-preserved wisdom and skill, the Szarekhan Dynasty are equipped with the most durable forms and the most destructive weaponry.

So, basically saying they will get a FNP vs psychic powers probably along with a deny on a 4+ strat or something.

I'm okay with this since the Necrons have fought against psychic races for thousands of years before they took their nap, so them being so bad at shutting down psykers and containing them always bothered me.

Voss wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
New lore article on necrons:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/who-are-the-szarekhan-dynastygw-homepage-post-2/

Specifically targeted by both eldar and other necrons for millennia, they suffered massive casualties, but now that they are awake, they're magically dominant once again.
Who writes this stuff? Why are they doubling down on our-numbers-don't-matter for the new subfaction? Wouldn't it be slightly more interesting if someone faced an actual struggle for once?

Yes, as an Eldar player since 2nd Ed., I've always had the looming backstory that my chosen army is on the brink of destruction. Then, with PA, Biel-Tan, one of our primary craftworlds, is set adrift in space with a collapsed infinity circuit. But, that desperation has never really been felt on the tabletop. "Oh the Dark Reaper temple of some far-flung Craftworld has infinite Aspect Warriors to dedicate to the cause? Wonderful!" I mean, I guess people would complain the other way too, but it would be nice to feel some of the story come alive on the tabletop. It could probably be argued that I could create that myself with GW's direction, but it would make for a good twist to start making rules that really represent the armies themselves.

Tyranids are another one. They are an endless swarm devouring all in their path, but that's not how they feel on the tabletop. They did in 5th Edition when Tervigons could just spew out Termagants, but it always feels like Tyranid swarms are the tip of tendril rather than a swarm, to me anyway.

 puma713 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
New lore article on necrons:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/who-are-the-szarekhan-dynastygw-homepage-post-2/

Specifically targeted by both eldar and other necrons for millennia, they suffered massive casualties, but now that they are awake, they're magically dominant once again.
Who writes this stuff? Why are they doubling down on our-numbers-don't-matter for the new subfaction? Wouldn't it be slightly more interesting if someone faced an actual struggle for once?

Yes, as an Eldar player since 2nd Ed., I've always had the looming backstory that my chosen army is on the brink of destruction. Then, with PA, Biel-Tan, one of our primary craftworlds, is set adrift in space with a collapsed infinity circuit. But, that desperation has never really been felt on the tabletop. "Oh the Dark Reaper temple of some far-flung Craftworld has infinite Aspect Warriors to dedicate to the cause? Wonderful!" I mean, I guess people would complain the other way too, but it would be nice to feel some of the story come alive on the tabletop. It could probably be argued that I could create that myself with GW's direction, but it would make for a good twist to start making rules that really represent the armies themselves.

Tyranids are another one. They are an endless swarm devouring all in their path, but that's not how they feel on the tabletop. They did in 5th Edition when Tervigons could just spew out Termagants, but it always feels like Tyranid swarms are the tip of tendril rather than a swarm, to me anyway.

4th ed's Endless Swarm worked a bit too (and I enjoyed that rule a fair bit), but you're right, armies on the table don't quite nail the scale of the setting. They're just small snapshots of bigger factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau get to keep their current Overwatch rules apparently:

So the first exception to the new rule is an entire faction. Shocking.

So confirmed Tau functionally keep 8th ed OW. Now it just remains to be seen if that's something they spread around like candy or if it's kept as a relatively rare bonus. I could see certain factions like IH or the SoB Sacred Rose faction getting something similar. But like Yuk's been worrying about if they pass exceptions around too much it kind of defeats the purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So the first exception to the new rule is an entire faction. Shocking.

Yeah my concern exactly. Here's the question: If this is given to other subfactions as I mentioned above, is that too liberal a distribution or just right if it's limited to sub-factions?

So a general rule that applies to everyone doesn't apply to Tau.

Wow... ?

The idea could be to give each faction it's own gimmick on some part of the game they play strongest. I could see Eldar getting some kind of movement shennanigans for example.

Pair that with Marines switching their strong point over the course of the game and 9th might balance out a bit more than the end of 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So a general rule that applies to everyone doesn't apply to Tau.

Wow... ?

I know, right? I mean Eldar are usually the dirty cheaters.

More seriously, it was likely done to balance how bad Tau are at melee as a faction. And at least they break the "rule" by following it since the Overwatch rule flat out says that some units will have rules that allow them to Overwatch.

Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Not an unexpected errata.

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

Hitting on 5+ in defensible terrain, no less. Wonder if people will start bringing more fortifications as a result of the new terrain rules.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

how much you wanna be Tau players will argue they can use the overwatch start AND normal orverwatch XD

 puma713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

Hitting on 5+ in defensible terrain, no less. Wonder if people will start bringing more fortifications as a result of the new terrain rules.

Definitely making me glad that I've been looking at ways to turn Overwatch off for my Templars.

Shock and Awe is still on the menu!

I honestly kind of expected Tau to get something like this. It's kind of their shtick.

However, let's hope this does not become widespread, otherwise it just defeats the whole purpose.

 Latro_ wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

how much you wanna be Tau players will argue they can use the overwatch start AND normal orverwatch XD

The Overwatch strat just gives units who can't overwatch access to the Overwatch rule, so it's not like it's special Overwatch. So if they want to pay CP to use their free rule that's fine by me.