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2020/07/02 00:18:24
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.
Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:
Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase
Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."
What this says to me is this:
On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?
Chargers still fight first. What the change means is that whoever charged doesn't also get to activate a non-charger right after their chargers. It'll go Friendly Chargers > Enemy "Fight First" > If still chargers/fight first left, goto 10 > Enemy Non-Charger > Friendly Non-Charger > if units left to fight, goto 40
I get that, but that's not what the Fight Phase rules say. I agree with you that the intention is for chargers to go before everyone, because it alludes to that earlier in the rules, but in the Fight Phase it makes no mention of chargers going first. Even the bullet points start with "Starting with your opponent, choose..."
"Starting with your opponent..." and your chargers going first are mutually exclusive.
You sure about that?
Spoiler:
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2020/07/02 00:21:41
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.
Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:
Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase
Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."
What this says to me is this:
On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?
Chargers still fight first. What the change means is that whoever charged doesn't also get to activate a non-charger right after their chargers. It'll go Friendly Chargers > Enemy "Fight First" > If still chargers/fight first left, goto 10 > Enemy Non-Charger > Friendly Non-Charger > if units left to fight, goto 40
I get that, but that's not what the Fight Phase rules say. I agree with you that the intention is for chargers to go before everyone, because it alludes to that earlier in the rules, but in the Fight Phase it makes no mention of chargers going first. Even the bullet points start with "Starting with your opponent, choose..."
"Starting with your opponent..." and your chargers going first are mutually exclusive.
You sure about that?
Spoiler:
Yes, that's not the Fight Phase rules. These are. And there is no mention of chargers going first before "Starting with your opponent":
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0204/01/02 00:23:13
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
The Royal Warden has a "Relic Gauss Blaster". Given that Necrons are all millions of years old, how old would a Gauss Blaster need to be to be considered a "relic"?
You know, now that I read the Fight phase more carefully, I DON'T think chargers go before everyone. They just go before everyone in YOUR army. So, if you have a mix of units in melee and a units that charged, your units that charged go first in YOUR activation.
Look at the rules for the Fight Phase:
Games Workshop wrote:
Fight Phase
Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."
What this says to me is this:
On my turn, I charge your unit. We also have another unit locked in combat. Since it is my turn, according to the Fight Phase rules, you select an eligible unit first. Since you don't have any chargers, you select the unit that just got charged to fight. Now, it's my activation and I must select my chargers because they go before other units. Once I do that, then we resolve the other combat. If not, then why include the above language at all?
Chargers still fight first. What the change means is that whoever charged doesn't also get to activate a non-charger right after their chargers. It'll go Friendly Chargers > Enemy "Fight First" > If still chargers/fight first left, goto 10 > Enemy Non-Charger > Friendly Non-Charger > if units left to fight, goto 40
I get that, but that's not what the Fight Phase rules say. I agree with you that the intention is for chargers to go before everyone, because it alludes to that earlier in the rules, but in the Fight Phase it makes no mention of chargers going first. Even the bullet points start with "Starting with your opponent, choose..."
"Starting with your opponent..." and your chargers going first are mutually exclusive.
You sure about that?
Spoiler:
Yes, that's not the Fight Phase rules.
Yes it is. Its the very next page of the fight phase rules. Keep reading- the rules text he just posted for you spells it out, and after that its diving right into FIGHT, PILE IN and all the other rules for the fight phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:25:13
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/02 00:24:36
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: Nah, it just means start with your opponent's charging units. There are none? Ok, then move to your charging units.
It's badly written because it isn't possible there could be any of your opponent's units that charged during your turn, but it still works RAW.
I don't think so. The "Chargers Fight First" rule is on the page opposite the rule I'm quoting, which is why I think it only applies to YOUR army. The Fight Phase rules say nothing about you going BEFORE your opponent. It just says that Chargers Fight First.
Again, YOUR chargers fighting first and "Starting with your opponent" are mutually exclusive. You cannot do both. I think that the block about Chargers Go First is about YOUR army.
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2020/07/02 00:26:04
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: Nah, it just means start with your opponent's charging units. There are none? Ok, then move to your charging units.
It's badly written because it isn't possible there could be any of your opponent's units that charged during your turn, but it still works RAW.
I don't think so. The "Chargers Fight First" rule is on the page opposite the rule I'm quoting, which is why I think it only applies to YOUR army. The Fight Phase rules say nothing about you going BEFORE your opponent. It just says that Chargers Fight First.
Again, YOUR chargers fighting first and "Starting with your opponent" are mutually exclusive. You cannot do both. I think that the block about Chargers Go First is about YOUR army.
Stop. Stop and read what people are posting.
"Units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought"
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/02 00:26:34
Subject: Re:40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Yes it is. Its the very next page. Keep reading- the rules text he just posted for you spells it out, and after that its diving right into FIGHT, PILE IN and all the other rules for the fight phase.
I have pointed that out a couple times now. That rule is AFTER the Fight Phase bullet points. There is no mention of STARTING WITH CHARGERS in the fight phase bulletpoints. STARTING WITH THE OPPONENT is first. If you begin with your chargers, then you have not followed the first bulletpoint.
I a happy to be wrong, but when it says CHARGERS FIGHT FIRST, I believe it is talking about when it is YOUR activation. That is the only interpretation that satisifies both rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:27:34
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2020/07/02 00:26:40
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Twilight Pathways wrote: Ew, measuring 1/2 inches is such an ugly rule. They're harder to see on tape measures, and for things like melee ranges and pile-ins etc I tend to favour hard plastic widgets for greater accuracy, which often only have whole inches marked.
Fortunately I randomly have a widget with a 1/2 inch end for some long-forgotten or defunct game system, so I finally get to use that. Yay?
I understand most people just hover a tape measure miles above the models and eyeball it, but I don't like doing that.
I suspect combat gauges will be popular like they are in AoS.
2020/07/02 00:27:04
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Yes it is. Its the very next page. Keep reading- the rules text he just posted for you spells it out, and after that its diving right into FIGHT, PILE IN and all the other rules for the fight phase.
I have pointed that out a couple times now. That rule is AFTER the Fight Phase bullet points. There is no mention of STARTING WITH CHARGERS in the fight phase bulletpoints. STARTING WITH THE OPPONENT is first. If you begin with your chargers, then you have not followed the first bulletpoint..
Because that is not how any of these rules are written! It starts with general case, then provides exceptions.
It doesn't matter that its after the bullet points. Its the next subsection of the Fight Phase rules. Chargers Fight First. The end.
By your exact same argument, pistols can't fire in close combat, because the general shooting rule is that can never happen. The pistol rule comes later and provides the exception. That's literally the point of the way they formatted the entire ruleset
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:33:58
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/02 00:29:11
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: Again, start with your opponent. Did any of his units charge? No. Did any of your units charge? If yes, they get to go before his non-chargers.
That's RAW.
But that's not what the Fight Phase says. Go back and read it. It says STARTING WITH YOUR OPPONENT, choose an ELIGIBLE unit. An ELIGIBLE unit is a unit that is within Engagement Range of an enemy AND/OR a unit that charged this turn.
RAW, you start with your opponent. Does he have units in Engagement Range? Yes? Then he goes first. Then, it is your turn, and your activate an ELIGIBLE unit (which is a charger, who goes first.)
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2020/07/02 00:29:29
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
For most other factions, the Fortification Detachment not getting the 'Detachment Abilities' might not be an issue.
But what about Sporocysts? They're a fortification that has the <Hive Fleet> Keyword. Are Detachment Abilities going to be things like Hive Fleet traits and the like?
Not a huge deal, but it's unfortunate.
Also, Chargers still fight first in the Fight Phase, it's the page right after the Fight Phase page....
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
It literally says non-charging units cannot be selected to fight until units that charged fight. There is NO stipulation about any player in the wording.
You're flat out wrong, Puma.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:32:02
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2020/07/02 00:30:31
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Carnikang wrote: But what about Sporocysts? They're a fortification that has the <Hive Fleet> Keyword. Are Detachment Abilities going to be things like Hive Fleet traits and the like?
Do you think they remembered that when they wrote that rule?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:34:15
The ugly bit is because technically you have to start with your opponent and check to see if they have any charging units, which they can't according to the rules. So every turn you are stopping and saying "ok, do you have any chargers? you can't, but we have to check first according to the rules."
2020/07/02 00:34:46
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Platuan4th wrote: It literally says you cannot select non-charging units until you fight with units that charged. There is NO stipulation about any play in the wording.
You're flat out wrong, Puma.
I will digress, because this is not YMDC, but if you start with your chargers, you break the first rule of the Fight Phase. At the very least, it is poorly written.
yukishiro1 wrote: No eligible units that did not charge can be selected until all eligible units that did charge have been. That's in the rules too.
It works. It's ugly, but it works.
It isn't particularly ugly. You just don't stop reading rules because you came to the end of page or subsection.
In many ways its good future proofing, because you can tweak subsections without breaking the general rules at all.
I have proven in three posts that I did not stop at the Fight Phase bulletpoints. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that i didn't read the Chargers Fight First paragraph. I have referenced it multiple times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:35:49
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2020/07/02 00:36:25
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: The ugly bit is because technically you have to start with your opponent and check to see if they have any charging units, which they can't according to the rules. So every turn you are stopping and saying "ok, do you have any chargers? you can't, but we have to check first according to the rules."
Stooping Dive?
2020/07/02 00:38:06
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: The ugly bit is because technically you have to start with your opponent and check to see if they have any charging units, which they can't according to the rules. So every turn you are stopping and saying "ok, do you have any chargers? you can't, but we have to check first according to the rules."
No, you say 'charging unit fight first- these units charged, I'm going to start with this one.' You don't have to pretend everyone is a toddler.
Besides, you're forgetting stuff like slaanesh daemons and Quicksilver Swiftness. They DO alternate with chargers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/02 00:42:30
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/02 00:38:44
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
yukishiro1 wrote: The ugly bit is because technically you have to start with your opponent and check to see if they have any charging units, which they can't according to the rules. So every turn you are stopping and saying "ok, do you have any chargers? you can't, but we have to check first according to the rules."
Stooping Dive?
Oh, I guess. Though that strat itself says that you always fight before everything else. So it didn't need things to be set up the way they were in the rules.
2020/07/02 00:40:30
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Platuan4th wrote: It literally says you cannot select non-charging units until you fight with units that charged. There is NO stipulation about any play in the wording.
You're flat out wrong, Puma.
I will digress, because this is not YMDC, but if you start with your chargers, you break the first rule of the Fight Phase. At the very least, it is poorly written.
yukishiro1 wrote: No eligible units that did not charge can be selected until all eligible units that did charge have been. That's in the rules too.
It works. It's ugly, but it works.
It isn't particularly ugly. You just don't stop reading rules because you came to the end of page or subsection.
In many ways its good future proofing, because you can tweak subsections without breaking the general rules at all.
I have proven in three posts that I did not stop at the Fight Phase bulletpoints. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that i didn't read the Chargers Fight First paragraph. I have referenced it multiple times.
Because inexplicably you feel it somehow doesn't count.
It literally says that otherwise eligible units can't fight until after all the chargers do. If you're dismissing that, you didn't read it, and you're going to have a hard time with every section of this ruleset because it presents General Rule followed by exceptions the exact same way.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/07/02 00:43:11
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
Carnikang wrote: But what about Sporocysts? They're a fortification that has the <Hive Fleet> Keyword. Are Detachment Abilities going to be things like Hive Fleet traits and the like?
Do you think they remembered that when they wrote that rule?
No... no, they probably didn't.
Maybe just running 4 'dules for fun games will get me by until the next change. At least they'll get Hive Fleets... for 6 cp.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Because inexplicably you feel it somehow doesn't count.
It literally says that otherwise eligible units can't fight until after all the chargers do. If you're dismissing that, you didn't read it, and you're going to have a hard time with every section of this ruleset because it presents General Rule followed by exceptions the exact same way.
That's actually not at all what I've said. And you're the one accusing others of not reading. But like I said, I'm done since this is News and Rumors and not YMDC.
Edit: The below quote makes it clear that chargers go first, regardless of the bulletpoint wording. As I said before, I think it is poorly-worded and should've contained a clearly-worded exception in the bulletpoints themselves.
Games Workshop
Since the player who isn’t taking their turn gets to choose the first non-charging unit to fight with, the Foul Blightspawn’s Revolting Stench ensures that the Blightlords will fight first against any enemy units that dare charge them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/02 01:01:28
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2020/07/02 00:56:18
Subject: 40k preview, May 23 - 9th edition, new Necrons, Marines
If I was playing someone without a fully painted army not in a tournament I'd just give them the 10 points too, can't imagine anyone who wouldn't do the same.
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