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 BlaxicanX wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i fail to see why painted miniatures should have an impact on the score of a tournament rating, where the test of on battlefield skill and listbuilding is tested...

Because it's "part of the hobby" or something nebulous like that.

Don't get me wrong, i find a min painting requirement perfectly acceptable, my issue is the implication that you get a free secondary or not through it kinda, which is ... questionable i guess?

vice versa i don't mind when tournaments also award prices for the best looking army (ies)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i fail to see why painted miniatures should have an impact on the score of a tournament rating, where the test of on battlefield skill and listbuilding is tested...

Because painted armies have also been giving scores (and even trophies) in tournaments for the last 40,000 years. You say the skill and listbuilding is tested, I say the painting and modelling side is also tested. This is a multi-layer hobby. I'm all for it.

Not my issue, my issue is that you have one category crossing into the other,
That's like Heavy weight lifting but your score get's affect by how well you swam before, an completly diffrent discipline.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Not my issue, my issue is that you have one category crossing into the other,
That's like Heavy weight lifting but your score get's affect by how well you swam before, an completly diffrent discipline.

Well, think of Warhammer like triathlon or decathlon instead of like weigh lifting. You get more points if you get good in multiple things.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Not my issue, my issue is that you have one category crossing into the other,
That's like Heavy weight lifting but your score get's affect by how well you swam before, an completly diffrent discipline.

Well, think of Warhammer like triathlon or decathlon instead of like weigh lifting. You get more points if you get good in multiple things.

and yet the performance of your matches don't influence your painting score, so no i can't do that.

See the issue now?

Ice_can wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
There is potentially a big problem in the Blast Weapon rule with units that shoot multiple d3 shots.

A Thunderfire cannon will fire the maximum of 12 shots automatically against an MSU of 10 termagants, all from 48" away, no Los, no cover, 2+ to hit, no questions asked. The Nid player cannot do anything to mitigate this, he cannot even field less than 10 termagants.

Equally, an Exorcist will shoot flat 9 krak missiles against ANY unit with 6 or more models. See that unit of 10 intercessors? Pow 9 missiles into them, again, no questions asked.

This has the potential to be too strong.

Think you need to reread that its minimum 3 not minimum 3 per die.

Yep looks like it. My bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Not my issue, my issue is that you have one category crossing into the other,
That's like Heavy weight lifting but your score get's affect by how well you swam before, an completly diffrent discipline.

Well, think of Warhammer like triathlon or decathlon instead of like weigh lifting. You get more points if you get good in multiple things.

and yet the performance of your matches don't influence your painting score, so no i can't do that.

See the issue now?

Dont geddit. If you fail in your matches, you won't get to the podium anyways, so having the perfect painted army does not count. But if you want to get the medal, you gotta be good in all the aspects.

No, most tournies give out SEPARATE categories. In general a reward for the best painted army.

Now, you get potential up to 10 pts for painted armies in the OTHER category, aka playing the game.

SO basically the other side is still unafected, whilest the game side suddendly should get affected?

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, most tournies give out SEPARATE categories. In general a reward for the best painted army.

Now, you get potential up to 10 pts for painted armies in the OTHER category, aka playing the game.

SO basically the other side is still unafected, whilest the game side suddendly should get affected?

Because out of the 120 players that attended the tournament, about 5 or 6 actually care on best painted trophy, but about 80+ care about winning best general I'd reckon.

Not Online!!! wrote:
i fail to see why painted miniatures should have an impact on the score of a tournament rating, where the test of on battlefield skill and listbuilding is tested...

Most big tourneys already have a minimum requirement for painted battle ready so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue. This is just codifying it somewhat and smaller tourneys are free to ignore this if they want.

It is also a rule in AoS and AoS players didn't get so salty about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, most tournies give out SEPARATE categories. In general a reward for the best painted army.

Now, you get potential up to 10 pts for painted armies in the OTHER category, aka playing the game.

SO basically the other side is still unafected, whilest the game side suddendly should get affected?

You do realize you will not be eligible to enter any of the known tournaments without a painted army?

I get the feeling that the people who are complaining about this don't really engage in tournaments.

It is also not scoring for best painted army. It's a binary score rule about if it is painted or not.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Most big tourneys already have a minimum requirement for painted battle ready so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue. This is just codifying it somewhat and smaller tourneys are free to ignore this if they want.

It is also a rule in AoS and AoS players didn't get so salty about this.

because it makes live for WAAC Players who buy the flavour of the week of ebay for Seal Clubbing the local crowed in the FLGS so much harder if they Need to care about the paint Job as well

 Eldarsif wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i fail to see why painted miniatures should have an impact on the score of a tournament rating, where the test of on battlefield skill and listbuilding is tested...

Most big tourneys already have a minimum requirement for painted battle ready so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue. This is just codifying it somewhat and smaller tourneys are free to ignore this if they want.

It is also a rule in AoS and AoS players didn't get so salty about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, most tournies give out SEPARATE categories. In general a reward for the best painted army.

Now, you get potential up to 10 pts for painted armies in the OTHER category, aka playing the game.

SO basically the other side is still unafected, whilest the game side suddendly should get affected?

You do realize you will not be eligible to enter any of the known tournaments without a painted army?

I get the feeling that the people who are complaining about this don't really engage in tournaments.

It is also not scoring for best painted army. It's a binary score rule about if it is painted or not.

since you couldn't be bothered TO READ: Here

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i fail to see why painted miniatures should have an impact on the score of a tournament rating, where the test of on battlefield skill and listbuilding is tested...

Because it's "part of the hobby" or something nebulous like that.

Don't get me wrong, i find a min painting requirement perfectly acceptable, my issue is the implication that you get a free secondary or not through it kinda, which is ... questionable i guess?

vice versa i don't mind when tournaments also award prices for the best looking army (ies)

This 10 points for battle ready is pretty much irrelevant, because it requires base, shade, technical, or contrast and technical. Did you use drybrush, and/or edge highlights ? No more battle ready. Did you use contrast, but not technical ? No more battle ready. I dont think anyone will score those points, unless they paint their army exactly like that.

If the rule requires the models to be Battle Ready, doesn't that mean if you paint them BETTER than Battle Ready, you'll not have painted them to a Battle Ready standard and lose the points?

Spoletta wrote:

Also, as you correctly noted, those points were likely not final.

By the way, I'm not an expert so I can't talk in merit, but it seems like those point values are photoshopped.

Put all this together and the credibility of the document is below low.

there is a difference between outdated and fake and from a General Point of view, the rulebook pictures can be photoshoped as well

a reason why it is most likely not a fake is how the non box-set SM releases are handled

CA comes along with the rulebook, so Long before the Codex and was going to get printed before it
the new stuff is listed as part of Indominus which makes sense if there are models along the box outside a Codex release

someone making a fake days ago would not have known that and would more likley have put them into Space Marine category

still possible an outdated playtest document rather than a CA digital version

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If the rule requires the models to be Battle Ready, doesn't that mean if you paint them BETTER than Battle Ready, you'll not have painted them to a Battle Ready standard and lose the points?

Yes.

Holy crap. Dakkaites must be bored with the 40 odd pages or rules leaks as the last 10 pages or so have been arguments about paint.

Good 'ol dakka never fails to disappoint.

I think people are getting way too hung up on what the RAW wording of this is vrs the clear intention, from GW streaming rules etc.
They want painted armies as they look way better on stream even if they aren't the best paint job its way better than shuffling grey plastic around for streaming.
They are live streaming events on Twitch via their offical account you can't be shocked that they are trying to give in game incentives for being twitch stream ready.

Is Army Painted? Yes get points
Is Army Painted like an army of Gold demon entries? Yes get 10 Points
Is Army painted but you clearly have the ability of a house Painter? Yes you get 10 points.
Is your Army commision Painted? Yes get 10 points.

Is Army Base coated Only? YES get 0 Points and no steam games for you
Is your Armt Grey plastic? Yes get 0 Points and no stream games for you either.

Be poor Slaanesh. Play against mehreens. Manage to somehow survive the shooting onslaught, the eradicators, the blast weapons, the centurions, the aggressors, the thunderfires and the executioner tanks. Somehow make it into combat with your last Keeper of Secrets. Finally, your time has cometh. Aeons of hatred and excess have led you to this moment. Your ASF sword thirsts and your claws are eager to taste blood.

Marine players uses Judicar.

Quit the game and throw your models in the trashbin.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Be poor Slaanesh. Play against mehreens. Manage to somehow survive the shooting onslaught, the eradicators, the blast weapons, the centurions, the aggressors, the thunderfires and the executioner tanks. Somehow make it into combat with your last Keeper of Secrets. Finally, your time has cometh. Aeons of hatred and excess have led you to this moment. Your ASF sword thirsts and your claws are eager to taste blood.

Marine players uses Judicar.

Quit the game and throw your models in the trashbin.

Unfortunately that pretty much looks liek it wilk be everyone's experience vrs Marines for the first 6 months or more of 9th.

since you couldn't be bothered TO READ: Here

It is not a free secondary if the tournament already requires everybody to have a painted army. You know how many more points your opponent gets over you with a painted army when you have a painted army? 0. That's the sum. That's the magical sum everybody is freaking over. If you enter any decent tournament this is an autoscore as you already have the minimum and that means everyone gets the same 10 points for each game.

Also, the people complaining about what constitutes as "Battle Ready". Please for the love of Hel just participate in a real tournament. You might actually enjoy it and meet amazing people. You might also discover that TOs are human beings that are not donkey-caves.

GW even made contrast for people who will put minimal effort into painting 3 colors on your models. They even made technical paints to make basing easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
I think people are getting way too hung up on what the RAW wording of this is vrs the clear intention, from GW streaming rules etc.
They want painted armies as they look way better on stream even if they aren't the best paint job its way better than shuffling grey plastic around for streaming.
They are live streaming events on Twitch via their offical account you can't be shocked that they are trying to give in game incentives for being twitch stream ready.

Is Army Painted? Yes get points
Is Army Painted like an army of Gold demon entries? Yes get 10 Points
Is Army painted but you clearly have the ability of a house Painter? Yes you get 10 points.
Is your Army commision Painted? Yes get 10 points.

Is Army Base coated Only? YES get 0 Points and no steam games for you
Is your Armt Grey plastic? Yes get 0 Points and no stream games for you either.

This.

 kodos wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Most big tourneys already have a minimum requirement for painted battle ready so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue. This is just codifying it somewhat and smaller tourneys are free to ignore this if they want.

It is also a rule in AoS and AoS players didn't get so salty about this.

because it makes live for WAAC Players who buy the flavour of the week of ebay for Seal Clubbing the local crowed in the FLGS so much harder if they Need to care about the paint Job as well

This^^

The weight-lifting strawman is also bogus -

40K should be seen as an art, rather than a pseudo-science.

Moreover, the empahsis on "deck..." er... "listbuilding" - if you want to play a card game, play a card game.
If you don't want to care of modeling and painting, presentation and theme, INTERNAL balance and realism, why play a minitatures wargame wherein so much if not most of one's time is spent considering exactly these aspects?

I just don't get it. Sure, one COULD look at 40K so one-dimensionally.

Or, one could look at it as a triathlon, or decathlon as one poster suggested above.

So far, I am all for the 9th ed changes - still too gamey, arbitrary and abstract for its own good, but better from what I can see.

If this painting angle, army comp and sportsmanship, yada, if all of this comes back into the hobby at the level of organized events, I might even consider attending another one in this lifetime.

Be poor Slaanesh. Play against mehreens. Manage to somehow survive the shooting onslaught, the eradicators, the blast weapons, the centurions, the aggressors, the thunderfires and the executioner tanks. Somehow make it into combat with your last Keeper of Secrets. Finally, your time has cometh. Aeons of hatred and excess have led you to this moment. Your ASF sword thirsts and your claws are eager to taste blood.

Marine players uses Judicar.

Quit the game and throw your models in the trashbin.

It will probably work just like the Armor of Russ.

Q: Can the Armour of Russ relic force a charging unit to attack
after all other units have done so?
A: Yes, unless that chosen unit has an ability that allows
it to fight first in the Fight phase, in which case it instead
fights as if it didn’t have that ability

So It will be mildly annoying to an army of always strikes first. If they charge they still strike first.

 jeff white wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Most big tourneys already have a minimum requirement for painted battle ready so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue. This is just codifying it somewhat and smaller tourneys are free to ignore this if they want.

It is also a rule in AoS and AoS players didn't get so salty about this.

because it makes live for WAAC Players who buy the flavour of the week of ebay for Seal Clubbing the local crowed in the FLGS so much harder if they Need to care about the paint Job as well

This^^

The weight-lifting strawman is also bogus -

40K should be seen as an art, rather than a pseudo-science.

Moreover, the empahsis on "deck..." er... "listbuilding" - if you want to play a card game, play a card game.
If you don't want to care of modeling and painting, presentation and theme, INTERNAL balance and realism, why play a minitatures wargame wherein so much if not most of one's time is spent considering exactly these aspects?

I just don't get it. Sure, one COULD look at 40K so one-dimensionally.

Or, one could look at it as a triathlon, or decathlon as one poster suggested above.

So far, I am all for the 9th ed changes - still too gamey, arbitrary and abstract for its own good, but better from what I can see.

If this painting angle, army comp and sportsmanship, yada, if all of this comes back into the hobby at the level of organized events, I might even consider attending another one in this lifetime.

Even MtG requires sleeves on cards so even they want you to put something over the base item to play with it.

Only going to say one thing about this current discussion point…

Stop being fething pedantic prats and trying to cause issue where it is not needed. All this bull about “if you highlight you don’t get points” is ridiculous. Sure, GW could have worded it better to say “at least Battle Ready standard” etc, but anyone that tries to say “you don’t get the points because you are now Parade Ready instead of Battle Ready”, is just trying to cause an argument for the sake of it.

As for unpainted armies, most events across the world, whether GW, ITC or ETC have had a painting standard. If you want to take part in these going forward, expect that requirement to still be there. If your local store/group want to run a local event without it, that is fine, just run the missions out of 90 points rather than the 100. Just don’t expect to go to a major event with an unpainted army and be able to take part.

As for the new rules, it is going to take a bit of time for everyone to digest the changes and put them into play correctly. Movement has now become more important that it was before – both in the movement phase and all additional moves in the other phases. 1/2” engagement range is also an interesting change and will certainly take away from large combat blobs and give elite units more of a chance (i.e. no more just drowning under weight of dice where below average rolls will kill you).

No Airwing detachment is interesting and is certainly one of the biggest changes in regards to army building from 8th to 9th. Personally, I’m not too bothered about it, but, if you’re one of the players with 9 Aeldari flyers etc then it is unfortunate as the max you can now take is 6 (after spending CP to take 3 battalions)

Secondaries are also going to be interesting. People will now have to think about army building if they want to attempt to get the max 45 points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If the rule requires the models to be Battle Ready, doesn't that mean if you paint them BETTER than Battle Ready, you'll not have painted them to a Battle Ready standard and lose the points?

See, this is what I was initially worried about. Why am I being penalized? Then I thought about what 'penal' means, from penance. And doesn't this bring me home to praying over a hundred yellow guardsmen (and women).

Justyn wrote:

Be poor Slaanesh. Play against mehreens. Manage to somehow survive the shooting onslaught, the eradicators, the blast weapons, the centurions, the aggressors, the thunderfires and the executioner tanks. Somehow make it into combat with your last Keeper of Secrets. Finally, your time has cometh. Aeons of hatred and excess have led you to this moment. Your ASF sword thirsts and your claws are eager to taste blood.

Marine players uses Judicar.

Quit the game and throw your models in the trashbin.

It will probably work just like the Armor of Russ.

Q: Can the Armour of Russ relic force a charging unit to attack
after all other units have done so?
A: Yes, unless that chosen unit has an ability that allows
it to fight first in the Fight phase, in which case it instead
fights as if it didn’t have that ability

My point was more like "If everything else wasn't enough, here's to more ways to frack up melee armies in the new edition".

At this point I am really really worrying about melee armies not being able to even drop on the table.

So It will be mildly annoying to an army of always strikes first. If they charge they still strike first.

The paint thing is a load of rubbish. 10 points isn’t really enough to have an actual impact on the outcome most of the time (not that it should have an impact) but enough to (as shown here) alienate people and cause arguments. It’s fine as a prerequisite for events but shouldn’t be in the main rules. People are even saying here that it can just be ignored in friendly games and will only really apply for events, so, what exactly is the point of it? It already was a thing for most events.

All it’s made me want to do is not play 40k. Might be ‘mellow dramatic’ but I’d rather play a game where I can paint at my own pace and not be penalised with a petty little 10pt deficit.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Even MtG requires sleeves on cards so even they want you to put something over the base item to play with it.

Yeah sleeving 60 cards to ensure they’re uniform to prevent cheating is totally the same as spending hours painting models.

I give out separate raffle prizes for fully painted armies. Making fully painted required or part of winning the main prize tends to hinder turnout, while best painted tends to get dominated by the same one or two people every time.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I haven't seen a single person in this thread suggest that they would evaluate quality in deciding whether someone's army met the requirements (except people opposed to the change doing so in jest). Please don't make straw man arguments, it doesn't add to the discussion.

Battle ready isn't a subjective call, either. It's objective - did you paint with three colors and base? If so, it qualifies. It doesn't depend on quality. There is no way to "paint too badly" and not meet the requirement.

There are valid reasons to be against the rule, but that is really not one of them.

Except gw's battle colour page doesn't refer 3 colours.

Well, my armies are fully painted, but if someone tries to make an argument that my models are TOO painted to receive any points, I will calmly pack up my suitcase and go home.

Bloody hell the painting debate on this thread!

1. Every 'tournament' i have ever been to either requires 3 colours OR penalizes you for non-painted. In the tournament circuit this is nothing new.

2. For everything else do you either play 40k with real human beings / are these people massive d**ks?. You literally say, 'mate, do you mind if we don't play the 10pts painted thing i'v got some new stuff i wanna try out' - 'ah yea cool, no worries bud'. --- this is real life, you all know it, this is all word soup and arguing for the sake of it.

If in the rare occasion someone is stubborn and says 'no, i must enforece the painting rule in our casual game'.

You do this:

walk off.

Can we please make a second thread for discussing the points for painting thing...

So the leaks missions are not the tournament missions?