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angel of death 007 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
So legitimately how many units do you think GW made of this "limited edition release"?

I think it would shock me if it was actually over 10,000 units world wide. I don't understand the advertising something for a month to make it available in a limited format with only crickets left for those who were not able to get one of the limited box sets.

Really think someone needs to go back to math. Another part of me thinks that GW has its a box set as "limited release" to get the hype up... then sales 70 percent of the product made holding back 30 percent to sell on ebay through a fake vendor but is truly them after they intentionally inflated the price. Maybe it is GW doing the scalping or atleast someone who works for them as I don't see how all these "scalpers" seem to get so many units of a limited edition product unless they are a vendor or have connections with GW. Sounds about as shady as it probably is.

It is over 10k by a large magnitude, that number isn't even in the ballpark.

To sell out on their webpage in UK in 10 minutes and then in the USA in 10 minutes.... it sure as hell isn't 100k... I think 10k is a good estimate as they have probably promised many to real vendors and some to fake vendors. I doubt GW website did anywhere near 10k units in USA or UK in 10 minutes. I would say ask GW but even though they are a stock based company they are very shady about what they do.

I have to agree with the others saying that 10K is an extremely lowball estimate. Just some rough numbeers, I use maybe 6-8 online retailers (UK), and I'm aware of maybe twice this number. Many of them have sold 500 boxes on release day (some for July, some for August), even those that I've always thought of as smaller. So let's say that, accounting for the retailers that I don't know, there are 30 in the UK (One of GW's largest markets but still not large relative to the world market), each of which were allocated and sold an average 300, That's 9K sets right there, without accounting for GW proper (by far the largest seller I would expect). Then stretch the numbers to Europe, US, and RoW, I have to think that 100K produced is a lot more realistic than 10K.

macluvin wrote:
Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.

It...is...not...a...starter...set...

Yeah, it looked like the captain, lieutenant, intercesors, warriors, overlord and royal warden were all the standard kits. Bikes and destroyers may also be normal kits. There were no troops on what is clearly the starter set sprues. There is also still the possibly that the starter will have things not in this box, just to get people to buy that too.

Most of the stories coming out of shops about having their pre-order requisitions dropped by GW are actually a false narrative.

A lot, and I mean thousands, of shops put pre-order requests in on the usual GW shop credit system that well exceeded their credit position. Unfortunately, many of these shops had already communicated to their customers the number they had requested.

Subsequently, their requisitions got cut back to within their credit position and due to the crisis these shops lacked cash flow to make up the difference in cash.

But that’s an uncomfortable situation to communicate to customers. It isn’t false to say that GW cut back on their requisition (which isn’t the same as an order, FYI); and the reason is conveniently left unsaid.

The GW shop credit system is a treadmill that many shops never escape—but which does allow new or struggling shops to quickly get up to speed selling product to customers. It could have its own thread of debate, but that probably doesn’t belong here.

 Leth wrote:
I stand corrected, glad I camped the website lol. Made sure everything on my account was up to date the day before as well. Seconds after i submitted the website went down.

No, you still could be correct by my reading. Stocks will last as long as stock is produced. "OOS" doesn't necessarily mean "OOS foverver", in fact I'd argue it usually means "OOS until we have more S", so a limited time rather than a limited number is what I personally expect (and hope for).

tneva82 wrote:

It...is...not...a...starter...set...

Apart from being on a limited run and missing a floppy ruler and some dice(not even an issue), and having Necrons instead of Death Guard, I don't how this set is different from Dark Imperium.

Full rule book, two armies and the rules to play whats included in the box. There you go, its a starter set.

It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.

Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.

tneva82 wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.

It...is...not...a...starter...set...

Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"

Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.

Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.

tneva82 wrote:
It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.

Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.

Did they officially say somewhere that a starter is coming later?

Not as yet, but one suspects they wouldn’t whilst hyping Indomitus.

tneva82 wrote:

Fw books will also have new points no doubt. But you need fw points in ca or fw books on sale 25.7. That isn't happening.

How do you know? That could be a 1 week preorder from the FW site.

 Jack Flask wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.

It...is...not...a...starter...set...

Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"

Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.

Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.

was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.

People can think what they want about this BS.
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...

btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...

Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.

RedNoak wrote:

 Jack Flask wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Scalpers only exist because we feed them... if you don’t buy the product they have to absorb the losses. Hell if the hobby community holds out long enough (never going to happen) you can make them absorb the shipping and. Handling costs as well and maybe even force them to sell at a discount. Don’t feed the scalpers. Besides it’s the starter box. It’s only limited edition as far as 9th is limited edition. If the demand is there they will print more.

It...is...not...a...starter...set...

Honestly I think this is the reason why this whole debacle got so big. People keep treating this as though it's the starter set, when GW seems to view it more like the Sisters of Battle Army Box.
Just the fact that some 3rd party stores were surprised not to receive 300+ units shows that there was a major disconnect between perception and reality.
And clearly GW also didn't predict this level of demand since they kept amending their own communication to clarify how limited this would be from "We made enough for everyone" to "no more than 3 per person!!!"

Actually, even worse that that, it's the Sisters of Battle Army Box but for the most played faction in the game, full of all new models, and an entire second faction, with a new edition's rulebook, all for nearly a 50% discount over individual MSRP.

Whether or not you agree with GW's choice of making this a limited collector's item, in hindsight this was shaping up to be gakstorm from the very start.

was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.

People can think what they want about this BS.
btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...

Not necessarily a collecter's item, but they've definitely said from the start that it was limited and not just a regular starter box.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Advertising exists to spread knowledge of a product so people know they can buy it.
[/quote}

That is just one of many things that marketers use advertising for.

Justyn wrote:

btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...

Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.

Indeed, as it's not remotely true.

There are some laws around advertising and accuracy, but that's it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ok I know we use the "plastic crack" analogy a lot but GW miniatures aren't literally addictive like nicotine is. Also, no one is claiming the companies are completely blameless here. Just the idea that a consumer being blameless for making bad purchases is absurd. They still chose to buy those things, GW is not holding a gun to people's heads.

GW are selling luxury goods at a high profit margin. Good luck to them.

I think I'll reserve my anger for companies using dodgy practices to overcharge for life-saving medicines.

ImAGeek wrote:
Did they officially say somewhere that a starter is coming later?

no, but as this box was advertised as limited edition special launch box, it was taken as a fact that a "real" 2-player starter set must come later as it would be the first GW game without one

RedNoak wrote:
was it ever announced to be such a 'limeted collectors item'? i never got that impression. a recommended max of 3 per person suggests that it isnt.

Yes, the announced it at the very beginning that this will be limited edition box for collectors/veteran players
the 3 per person stuff and similar came only last week were people got the impression that it was not limited edition at all, while the initial articel talked about "enough for everyone" but also said " it’s a special launch box to celebrate the new edition, it won’t be around forever"

That's not how German laws work, and it's not the first time something sells out insanely fast because the offer is just too good.
Apparently GW has promised to provide most stores with 30 or more boxes, which is plenty to not get into any trouble with the German law.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
At a much higher price, mind.

There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.

There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.

Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.

Alright, some may not get released individually.

But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.

So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.

Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.

'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.

So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?

The Box IS a good deal and that's why it's limited edition : they don't want to sell too much of that box because they don't get amazing return with it.
The scalpers are not some kind of external plague that we must fight with abstinence and willpower or something, it's the result of GW's business practice, it's inherent to their way of doing things.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
At a much higher price, mind.

There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.

There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.

Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.

Alright, some may not get released individually.

But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.

So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.

Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.

'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.

So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?

Do you not know how marketing works?

Again, you have it reversed. The price of the individual kits are so high so that you are driven to buy the bundle, which often comes with some extra stuff you do not need. It's basic psychology to manipulate people's ability to compare similar things. You produce limited product for a "discount" (Note that it is all relative and GW is not loosing a cent on the "sale" they are offering here. They're actually making quite a lot) to further incentive people buying all of it immediately with no thought or consideration.

I mean come on, are you just not thinking through what people are writing here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
It is not. Starter set comes later. Starter sets have all you need to play. This does not. Starter sets aren't limited in stock. This is.

Starter set is what comes later. Why arque against gw? You lose. Automatically.

But it is the starting set for 9th.

Like, literally, it is the set they made for the start of 9th.

Pardon people's confusions here, because GW's not been particularly clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
At a much higher price, mind.

There's 9 characters in that box. Many have equivalents already, so released individually, just the characters will be around $300.

There's 9 characters...and 4(Lieutenant, Captain, Royal Warden, and Overlord) are on individual sprues.
The other 5 are on two shared sprues(the Plasmancer and Skorpekh Lord are on the Necron one with the Reanimator while the Chaplain, Judiciar, and Bladeguard Ancient are all part of the Marine sprue with Bladeguard and Eradicators) keyed to each faction.

Frankly, I'm expecting the Bladeguard Ancient to be a part of the Bladeguard's box if ever there is one.

Alright, some may not get released individually.

But still, some simply math:
Rulebook- $65 by itself.
Primaris LTs - $35 in various poses
Primaris Captains- $35 (or $36)
Necron Overlord- $28 for current one. New one likely to be somewhat higher.
Warden- doesn't exist. Let's lowball it and call it $28 too.

So, $191, $8 less than the total price of the box set, for 4 models and a book, and that's with 5 year old prices on the necron characters.

Lets be generous and say everything else gets tossed into start collecting sets. Well, Vanguard Space Marines are $95 and fairly recent. Seems a reasonable baseline.
So $190 for both of those.
We've almost doubled the cost of the box set with very conservative prices.

'No rush, they'll come out individually eventually' is a 100% price increase, minimum.

So the box actually is a good deal now? What happened to people being manipulated into buying it by limited stock? Are they manipulated harder to buy it when it comes out at a higher price and not limited?

The Box IS a good deal and that's why it's limited edition : they don't want to sell too much of that box because they don't get amazing return with it.
The scalpers are not some kind of external plague that we must fight with abstinence and willpower or something, it's the result of GW's business practice, it's inherent to their way of doing things.

I would bet you a hundred bucks they get a fantastic return

stratigo wrote:

Pardon people's confusions here, because GW's not been particularly clear.

GW was very clear about that one, "limited edition launch set for veteran players" and nothing else

now we can talk about how stupid it is to start e new edition without a starter set but just a limited box set aimed for veteran players but it also makes clear what this edition is all about

8th was there to get new players in, 9th is there to keep those people playing and is not caring about new players any more

I would bet you a hundred bucks they get a fantastic return

Everything is relative. This box will be sold at 3 or 4 time its price as separated boxes.

 The Phazer wrote:

Justyn wrote:

btw in germany there are laws against such behavior. if you advertise a product (even a limited offer) you'll need to have enough of it that it isnt sold out in 5min...

Wait there are laws that mandate a minimum amount of items manufactured in Germany? Literally unbelievable.

Indeed, as it's not remotely true.

There are some laws around advertising and accuracy, but that's it.

If that law existed Ferrari would be an illegal brand in Germany. Same with other luxury things that are sold before production even begins.

Honestly I would not be shocked if there is NO STARTER for 9th edition.

Consider that starter sets are a nice deal and discount, but for an actual beginner they are not actually the best thing to get. First up you are limited to only two armies to pick from, which either shoe horns you into factions you don't "really" want or means that you don't get it. From an overall sales perspective its also bad because it means your customers from one generational block are encouraged to focus on two armies over all the others - repeat this over a efw years and you get the heavily dominant marine aspect that we have today.

Secondly it has TWO armies and most people only need one when starting out. So now you've got to find a friend who wants the other half. That might be fine if you and a mate join up at the same time and both want one of the two armies. IT's not that good if you both want the same army, or if you don't have a friend or know anyone who wants to split (remember you're new so you likely don't know about splitting on ebay or at the local club as easily).



I can well see gw perhaps moving toward instead of pushing a starter set, instead pushing Getting Started sets for each faction on newbies. Now they might make a getting started modelling pack with glue, clippers, scraper, brush etc... all in a pack as well. However its much better to push getting started sets on people.
Now people have a choice from any army in the game; the cost is less than the duel starter set (heck typically you could get two getting started sets for the same price as one starter pack); you don't have to worry about finding someone to swap/trade/sell with or being left with models you don't want.




Honestly it makes a lot of sense for GW to go that direction. It's far easier to market to new customers and it also helps spread out the starting army focus. Instead of one or two armies getting a heavy focus, you spread out sales more so over a wider range. This is better for GW as it means that the ydon't have to plough as much marketing money into slower selling armies because in theory they should start to pick up more sales. I think GW of today is far more keen to avoid "abandoned" armies in their range.

Very much doubt there won't be a starter set for 9th. I'm really curious if they're moving away from the big starter set as the main push though and more toward the smaller ones like they had from 8th like Know No Fear.

From all my times hanging out in stores painting they seemed like one of the biggest sellers for new folk, particularly younger ones with their parents. Come in, do a painting tutorial with a Primaris Marine then play an intro game with the store models. After that pick up one of the small starters and some paint/ brushes.

Don't think I ever saw someone brand new buy Dark Imperium, maybe GW are trying something new and saving the big £100+ slot for something more akin to the Titanicus Grand Master box. Remember how limited that "while stocks last" box was on release? It came back later on with (I think) the same contents at the same price.

Not sure exactly how the Indom sprues would split down for a smaller set but minimum unit sizes would't be an issue as they aren't in K.N.F. ether.


Cheers
Chris

 Snotcatcher wrote:


Don't think I ever saw someone brand new buy Dark Imperium, maybe GW are trying something new and saving the big £100+ slot for something more akin to the Titanicus Grand Master box. Remember how limited that "while stocks last" box was on release? It came back later on with (I think) the same contents at the same price.

From what I recall (could be wrong), AT was a "Limited stock" product, and they simply made more stock, thus relaxing the limit. Hopefully the same with this.

There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."

So they wait two weeks to a month before revealing it and in that time the above thought has faded for enough room to, "OMG OMG OMG MORE GGGLLORRRIIOOUUSS PRIMARIS MODELS, I MUST PRE-ORDER THREE RIGHT NOW, HAHA DON'T TELL THE WIFE HAHA."

It was more relevant to be a “Starter Set” when it was the place to get the rules, dice, templates, etc.

You can get the rules free online
No more templates
Basic d6 is all you need. No more scatter dice.

 Arbitrator wrote:
There will absolutely be a new Starter Set, they're just spreading the releases out a bit so they don't lose a chunk of initial sales to, "Umm, gee whizz, I sure did spend a lot this month and the Starter will be around three years so I'll wait."

See this sort of tells me why GW might move away from starter sets toward launch sets.

You're an experienced current GW customer. In theory you are NOT supposed to be the target audience for a starter set for the game. However over the years GW has put more and more models into the sets and made the deal greater and greater to the point where its such a good deal that they are cleaning up a lot of sales, not from new gamer,s but from current ones.

I think this idea of a launch set is exactly pandering to that specific market; the deal market. They aren't after a starter they just want lots of models at a lower price.


Meanwhile why keep going with that model? The big discount isn't necessarily drawing in new customers, its just feeding existing ones who are already part of the system and would likely buy all those models, given time, at full retail price. So why not do shorter term discount boxes to keep them mostly happy, but then focus actual beginners and new gamers into the Getting Started sets. GW already renamed them from Battalions of old into the Getting Started sets. They shifted content to make most (all?) playable as a basic force out of the box.

Sure established gamers get them too, but the focus is now on the entire range not just on two specific armies.



I'd wager we might see no starter for 9th instead we might see a new pair of Getting Started sets for Necron and Primaris/marines and then a bundle box with big rulebook, dice, rulers etc... The Newbie now pays as much for an old starter set as they do for their own custom starting point. Giving them the generic rules/dice/rulers etc.. pack alongside a Getting Started set of their choice.