40k 9th edition, : App released page 413

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**Dudeface**

Ice_can wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
stratigo wrote:

I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",

Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.

7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.

8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.

Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..

There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.

Think you missed the last decade as fairly sure it wasn't 7th edition, i think it was 5th edition 10 years ago

Was gonna say thats about 3 years worth and covers 4 books/codex/armies.

10 years ago playkng chaos marines you'd be rocking a space marine list with less special rules and paying more for having spikes... oh wait some things haven't changed.

**Trickstick**

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
Lash of submission then smash them with a defiler, good times.

I still think that Lash of Submission is the absolute worst rule that GW has ever written. No other rule directs your opponent to touch your models. It just seems like something that shouldn't be done. We just got by it by giving directions, as they were mostly "cluster those Guardsmen up please" but it really was a terrible rule. Like, I don't mind my opponent touching my models if I know them, but for pick up games I have no idea who the person is, or their hand hygiene.

**kodos**

zanzibarthefirst wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
Lash of submission, rerollable 2++...

I'm having flashbacks.

Lash of submission then smash them with a defiler, good times.

a local tournament organisator by that time had the opinion that 40k is a perfect game and his events don't need restrictions or house rules
resulting in 2 of my friends team up for 2 player team event with CSM and SW trying to convince him that Lash and Jaws is such a terrible OP combination that he should not allow such things in future

**stratigo**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
stratigo wrote:

I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",

Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.

7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.

8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.

Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..

There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.

for most of 8th, eldar were rocking consistent 60 plus win percentages.

Sure, there were a few times some other army had better winrates, link the guard castellan lists, but eldar remained consistently strong, mostly on the backs of flyers, up until it wasn't any longer. But that feels like a ca2020 development.

Eldar have been one of the consistently strongest factions in the history of the game. Simple as.

Chaos honestly only spiked on a few occasions. I'd warrant marines outrank them in historic power levels, though some of the spikes were very high, yes.

Chaos in 8th has never challenged eldar's spot in winrates though, except maybe with malefic lords, which were nerfed promptly.

**Not Online!!!**

what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...

**Trickstick**

kodos wrote:
...Lash and Jaws...

Oh god. I think that someone needs to be sent to The Hague...

**Not Online!!!**

Trickstick wrote:
kodos wrote:
...Lash and Jaws...

Oh god. I think that someone needs to be sent to The Hague...

the genevea convention does not approve of this action!

Edit: lash and obliterators it was for a long time indeed.
Cripplingly bland codex it was, but the BS some units could pull with it was astronomical.

**Dudeface**

stratigo wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
stratigo wrote:

I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",

Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.

7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.

8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.

Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..

There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.

for most of 8th, eldar were rocking consistent 60 plus win percentages.

Sure, there were a few times some other army had better winrates, link the guard castellan lists, but eldar remained consistently strong, mostly on the backs of flyers, up until it wasn't any longer. But that feels like a ca2020 development.

Eldar have been one of the consistently strongest factions in the history of the game. Simple as.

Chaos honestly only spiked on a few occasions. I'd warrant marines outrank them in historic power levels, though some of the spikes were very high, yes.

Chaos in 8th has never challenged eldar's spot in winrates though, except maybe with malefic lords, which were nerfed promptly.

It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.

**alextroy**

Not Online!!! wrote:
what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...

And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...

**Not Online!!!**

alextroy wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...

And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...

Because oh wonder the Model itself wasn't the issue but rather the lack of ro3 and no drawback soup aswell as brimstones?

Gw overreacted curbed the Model into unplayable copied it over for the IG dex where it was no issue at all because the other changes had happened.

Now gw could've lowered the pts of the malefic down again over the course of 8th but even that they didn't do, because reasons.

Heck they couldn't even Make the command vox work through all Of 8th aswell.

**Sunny Side Up**

Dudeface wrote:

It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.

Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Not Online!!! wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...

And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...

Because oh wonder the Model itself wasn't the issue but rather the lack of ro3 and no drawback soup aswell as brimstones?

Gw overreacted curbed the Model into unplayable copied it over for the IG dex where it was no issue at all because the other changes had happened.

Now gw could've lowered the pts of the malefic down again over the course of 8th but even that they didn't do, because reasons.

Heck they couldn't even Make the command vox work through all Of 8th aswell.

Well if they had fixed all that and people had gone out and bought stuff to field it, then they'd be even more upset when they got squatted. See? They did you a favor.

**Not Online!!!**

Very funny...

**Togusa**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.

Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.

Wait, wait.

Depending on which thread I view, either Chaos is trash and the worst of the worst, or Primaris are the most OP things to ever have existed and must be nerfed. Eldar are either good, or bad, even though we know they had a 60% win rate in the event scene last edition, and I can remember more than a few times getting smashed by Grey Knights, GSC and even Khorne Zerker Spam. Thousand Sons OP? I've not seen anyone play them in my vacuum.

So which is it? You guys always love to argue over this stuff, but then your evidence for it always comes from a sectioned off vacuum.

Maybe we all just see small snap shots of the bigger picture here and things aren't really as bad as we make them out to be?

To sum up, Theory hammer is fine I guess. But it means nothing.

**H.B.M.C.**

the_scotsman wrote:
-Tyranid Warrior Prime

As it happens, we already have a mini for that. Worse, GW releasing a clampack or mini-box for a Tyranid Prime would probably result in it losing options, as they wouldn't be able to fit all the possible weapons it can currently get on the sprue. Better to leave it as part of the Warriors kit like it is now.

**Tyran**

Yeah the Tyranid HQs are actually great in terms of models. Tyranids are more in need of a Pyrovore/Biovore or Lictor/Deathleaper

**Slayer-Fan123**

Tyran wrote:
Yeah the Tyranid HQs are actually great in terms of models. Tyranids are more in need of a Pyrovore/Biovore or Lictor/Deathleaper

I thought everyone that used Biovores just used the Pyrovore model?

**Carnikang**

Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
In case it hasn't been mentioned, it looks like we now have 9th edition FAQs for the Imperial Armour Indexes.

With links:
Xenos filth: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/EunC78FGirlq7ljn.pdf

Nice! All the Tyranid Titans weapons dodged the Blast keyword. Not that that means they're all that better than before.

But at least they can still fire them when they get stuck in.

**Voss**

Phoenix Rising also finally dragged itself in with a 9th update. So... that's half of them.

**Dudeface**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.

Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.

That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.

Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.

**Mr_Rose**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Yeah the Tyranid HQs are actually great in terms of models. Tyranids are more in need of a Pyrovore/Biovore or Lictor/Deathleaper

I thought everyone that used Biovores just used the Pyrovore model?

They’re all currently resin and therefore in need of an update more than, say, the Tyrant is. Though I wouldn’t say no to new ‘Gaunts either, or a refreshed genestealer sprue to bring them in line with the genecult ones design-wise.

**Sunny Side Up**

Dudeface wrote:

That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.

Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.

Except Chaos is the bride, Eldar rarely even close to the bridesmade. They only time Chaos hasn't won Adepticon in the last 5 years, they placed second to Nids. Most post-Marine-doctrine-Nerf tournaments like Battlefield Birmingham, Chaos placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and more, something unheard of in 8th and 7th outside maybe that one Iron-Hands-release-weekend. To 3 out of three the year before at the Gentleman's GT: Chaos. Top 3 out of 3. Etc.., Etc.

A short spike for Nids, the Castellan and Marines aside, Chaos has been the Bride, the first, second and third bridesmade for all of 8th and all of late-7th Edition.

Again, Eldar and other factions would need some more Chaos-style love, whether its useful FW stuff or just cross-allies freedom to even have a shot at being the bridesmade under Chaos, let alone competing with Chaos for top spots.

**stratigo**

Dudeface wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.

Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.

That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.

Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.

It's different issues, only slightly related.

It's completely understandable to be an eldar player and feel like that GW cares less about you because you're sitting on awful resin models for much of your range, despite some builds of your army being consistently strong

**Dudeface**

I'm out, I'll take my khorne bezerker sculpts older than some of the eldar finecast and go revel in all the mono faction chaos space marines tournaments that have been won.

**Sunny Side Up**

Dudeface wrote:
I'm out, I'll take my khorne bezerker sculpts older than some of the eldar finecast and go revel in all the mono faction chaos space marines tournaments that have been won.

Same for my mono-Harlequins.

Either way, that was not the original statement.

The longest consistently OP faction with the far and away most (bigger) tournament wins in 7th and 8th is Chaos, not (even remotely) Eldar (mono-books and certain builds under these umbrellas being weak notwithstanding).

But sure, if you take a fluffy World Eaters list and run up against a no-gak-given-about-fluff-competitive-tournament-Eldar-soup, you'll probably get blown off the table. Inversely, if I take my fluffy Iyanden Wraithknight/Wraithguard list with their trusty Spiritseers and get paired against the latest Jim Vesal or TJ Lanigan special, I am not gonna see any daylight. That's why you should compare like with like.

**Jidmah**

TIL that Eldar are an unloved NPC race despite having powerful codices and top tier army builds for all of the last decade.

I guess no longer being the favored child hurts.

**Sunny Side Up**

Jidmah wrote:
TIL that Eldar are an unloved NPC race despite having powerful codices and top tier army builds for all of the last decade.

I guess no longer being the favored child hurts.

Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

**Jidmah**

Sure, you keep believing that.

**Dudeface**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
TIL that Eldar are an unloved NPC race despite having powerful codices and top tier army builds for all of the last decade.

I guess no longer being the favored child hurts.

Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.

https://www.40kstats.com/

Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.

I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.

Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.

**tneva82**

Kirasu wrote:
I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).

Uh no. It\s still multiple releases and helps with attack of the clone syndrome with same model used multiple times. Have fun with ork painboys all looking identical.