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 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Won't be buying either. They already said that current codexes will still be valid. So, elite units still won't feel elite and horde units, despite this buff to blast weapons will probably still be top dog. So, why bother getting the new edition at all?

Like knights, eldar flyers, marines, ynarri reapers and shining spears? Yeah, I wouldn't say hordes dominated 8th much at all.

 kingheff wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Won't be buying either. They already said that current codexes will still be valid. So, elite units still won't feel elite and horde units, despite this buff to blast weapons will probably still be top dog. So, why bother getting the new edition at all?

Like knights, eldar flyers, marines, ynarri reapers and shining spears? Yeah, I wouldn't say hordes dominated 8th much at all.

yeah hoards haven't dominated 8th edition for ages. they where top dog back in the early days, but once stratigiums etc came out, guard where mostly relgated to CP batteries and with 9th edition apparently even that role is gonna be gone

The heavily implied replacement for Dark Imperium? Nope. No need for either a Marine nor Necron army, let alone both.

I will however be interested in the replacement for First Strike, should they do it. Love Kill Team so if it would be great to build on the previous box's primaris models and to have an excuse to give Necrons a try. A printed copy of the 9th edition download rules would be handy.

 auticus wrote:
These are the things that would have to be done for me to consider returning to 40k... all of which are things that I know will never happen:

1) Removal of magic the gathering style list building wombo combo as the center piece of the game.

2) Remove CP farming from the game.

3) Remove true line of sight from the game.

4) Add cover rules that matter. The ability to take out my entire squad because you can see one guy's forearm is a hard no for me.

5) Add rules to make terrain significantly impact battles.

6) Make it so all armies are viable and not just a handful that get rotated every year forcing me to buy new armies regularly. Thats about as pay to win as it gets.

Do those things and I'd consider playing again.

1) There are always going to be unit combos. They could make them less wombo but support character+support character+good unit is always going to be good.

2) Define CP farming. If you mean infinite CP loops, they already got rid of those. If you mean stuff like the loyal 32...meh. It's whatever.

3) No. TLS has problems but imaginary LoS has ir's own issues while also being incredibly unintuitive.

4) I agree that cover needs to matter more, I'm less concerned about infantry though. Vehicles are the bigger losers in the cover system.

5) That's just 4 again.

6) All armies are viable for 90% of players at 90% of play. The problem is people not being able to accept the part of their losses that's due to them sucking. Playing Nids is not the main reason you didn't win NOVA last year, not being good enough to win NOVA is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Won't be buying either. They already said that current codexes will still be valid. So, elite units still won't feel elite and horde units, despite this buff to blast weapons will probably still be top dog. So, why bother getting the new edition at all?

Like knights, eldar flyers, marines, ynarri reapers and shining spears? Yeah, I wouldn't say hordes dominated 8th much at all.

yeah hoards haven't dominated 8th edition for ages. they where top dog back in the early days, but once stratigiums etc came out, guard where mostly relgated to CP batteries and with 9th edition apparently even that role is gonna be gone

I think the bigger problem with Hordes in 40k is that they suck to play against because they take FOREVER to do anything.

Also, anyone who says 'elite unit suck' is full of gak. Elite units don't suck, your personal favorite elite units do. Quit trying to turn a datasheet issue into a systemic one.

I'm in Egypt and under curfew so ATM no.

Depends.
If the box is a reasonable price I may start a necron army (not BotP price)

But that’s providing flyers, terrain and CP got the fixes they were suggesting had been added.

Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

you could use your old 4th edition codex in 5th edition, but people still expected you to adapt the 5E rules

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

I don’t really think of this as a new edition. It’s rule updates and expansion on certain things like CP. mainly I think it’s an excuse to push the new sisters harder and launch new Necromunda models.

I don’t feel like GW finished what they stared with dark imperium and was still waiting for more chaos expansion. I don’t know why but I think nids will be next

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

hh of course we'll eventually get new codices, but I'd not be too suprised to see PA mostly work with it, although some stratigiums may be replaced be being brought into the new 'dex. for example blood angels will likely get a death company assault intercessor option when they finally get their new dex

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

hh of course we'll eventually get new codices, but I'd not be too suprised to see PA mostly work with it, although some stratigiums may be replaced be being brought into the new 'dex. for example blood angels will likely get a death company assault intercessor option when they finally get their new dex

The problem that I have with that is that I never see anyone playing with their PA books in my area. I bought one of them (CSM was in it) and have never used anything from it. I have the same issue with Vigilus. I feel like all those books were very, very underwhelming in the rules department.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I don’t really think of this as a new edition. It’s rule updates and expansion on certain things like CP. mainly I think it’s an excuse to push the new sisters harder and launch new Necromunda models.

I don’t feel like GW finished what they stared with dark imperium and was still waiting for more chaos expansion. I don’t know why but I think nids will be next

Nids or Guard, it's got to be one of the two.

ERJAK wrote:

 auticus wrote:
These are the things that would have to be done for me to consider returning to 40k... all of which are things that I know will never happen:

1) Removal of magic the gathering style list building wombo combo as the center piece of the game.

2) Remove CP farming from the game.

3) Remove true line of sight from the game.

4) Add cover rules that matter. The ability to take out my entire squad because you can see one guy's forearm is a hard no for me.

5) Add rules to make terrain significantly impact battles.

6) Make it so all armies are viable and not just a handful that get rotated every year forcing me to buy new armies regularly. Thats about as pay to win as it gets.

Do those things and I'd consider playing again.

1) There are always going to be unit combos. They could make them less wombo but support character+support character+good unit is always going to be good.

2) Define CP farming. If you mean infinite CP loops, they already got rid of those. If you mean stuff like the loyal 32...meh. It's whatever.

3) No. TLS has problems but imaginary LoS has ir's own issues while also being incredibly unintuitive.

4) I agree that cover needs to matter more, I'm less concerned about infantry though. Vehicles are the bigger losers in the cover system.

5) That's just 4 again.

6) All armies are viable for 90% of players at 90% of play. The problem is people not being able to accept the part of their losses that's due to them sucking. Playing Nids is not the main reason you didn't win NOVA last year, not being good enough to win NOVA is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Won't be buying either. They already said that current codexes will still be valid. So, elite units still won't feel elite and horde units, despite this buff to blast weapons will probably still be top dog. So, why bother getting the new edition at all?

Like knights, eldar flyers, marines, ynarri reapers and shining spears? Yeah, I wouldn't say hordes dominated 8th much at all.

yeah hoards haven't dominated 8th edition for ages. they where top dog back in the early days, but once stratigiums etc came out, guard where mostly relgated to CP batteries and with 9th edition apparently even that role is gonna be gone

I think the bigger problem with Hordes in 40k is that they suck to play against because they take FOREVER to do anything.

Also, anyone who says 'elite unit suck' is full of gak. Elite units don't suck, your personal favorite elite units do. Quit trying to turn a datasheet issue into a systemic one.

They have already called out the 32 and 17 as nolonger being necessary and infact hinder your list the brief description of the New CP system works, it's XCP per game size you get you first detachment free additional detachments cost CP additional codex's cost CP so you pay CP twice for a second detachment from another codex. So they better be bringing alot to the table.

I suspect Assasins etc could well be a lot more viable now though as their rules certainly seem way more inline with this system.

If we’re talking about building XP over time this feel like another move toward hero hammer. Interesting to see how someone like RG fits in

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

hh of course we'll eventually get new codices, but I'd not be too suprised to see PA mostly work with it, although some stratigiums may be replaced be being brought into the new 'dex. for example blood angels will likely get a death company assault intercessor option when they finally get their new dex

The problem that I have with that is that I never see anyone playing with their PA books in my area. I bought one of them (CSM was in it) and have never used anything from it. I have the same issue with Vigilus. I feel like all those books were very, very underwhelming in the rules department.

.

depends on what your playing, some armies came out of it better then others, I, for example, would likely have little use for the Space Marine PA, but a black templar player proably finds it nesscary.

mrFickle wrote:
If we’re talking about building XP over time this feel like another move toward hero hammer. Interesting to see how someone like RG fits in

If your talking about the crusade system that's once again GW trying to sell the idea thag a lot of people play narative campaigns, I'm sure it's good for those that do but I suspect most of the players will read it and never actually use it in a game.

 Vankraken wrote:
Not touching this edition unless they do a major overhaul of the core game system to not be pants. 8th is such a fundamentally lacking and flawed foundation for a game and it seems extremely unlikely that GW has the skill to fix this bare bones mess of a core ruleset. They need to take 8th behind the proverbial shed with a melta gun put it down full stop and create a new proper core game system with a solid foundation to support deeper gameplay. 8th is rife with literal 1 up power creep, stack all the buffs, hero hammer nightmare of abusing the d6 system until it bursts.

Ill keep an eye on how 9th pans out but if they chain themselves to 8th's design then I have zero hope for anything other than more of the same and the continuation of power creep due to limit design and gameplay space. I don't think GW has ever learned the right lessons from their mistakes and they will continue to fail into success due to the strength of 40k's IP.

Yeah, I think love their horrible 8th too much, and GW wants people to have fast games so why not make every units average wound output 85

Besides the world is crammed with airport hipsters needing a game 10min before their flight.

Voted yes, but am not 100% committed on following through until the boxed set contents is confirmed.

If we get the Primaris & Necron minis shown in the 9th ed leaks, then probably will buy for the models alone. I dont collect Necrons but those would make for a good Kill Team no doubt. Assault Primaris are my main concern as my main army is BA.

I don't really care for the physical rulebook, would prefer epub copy but I'm guessing the boxed set will be priced so aggressively that it will be a neglible cost considering how many minis are coming with the box.

Now then, if the minis arent what were shown in the leaks, I might skip the boxed set and just grab the rulebook in epub format. And then wait until the "Start collecting assault primaris" becomes available for those new minis to save some dough

Doubtfull since I play Deathwatch, and I have no reason to believe GW will let them use any of the new marine stuff.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

you could use your old 4th edition codex in 5th edition, but people still expected you to adapt the 5E rules

Well yeah but until there is 9th ed codex for your faction there's no point selling 8th ed codex. In fact depending on faction you are looking at couple year wait easily before you could then play game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

Well yeah. GW flat out says they wil redo. They aren't being dishonest there. They ADMIT they will redo codexes.

But those won't pop in release. It took 1.5 years for orks to get 8th ed codex. Sisters got about 2.5 years.

And in 9th ed there's less rush to get codex out as they still have codex so don't expect the 1-2 codex per month rate they had.

So there's very little reason to sell 8th ed codexes right now UNLESS you plan to put 40k on hold until codex comes out and depending on your faction(note we won't have any idea on order except fairly safe bet for necrons and marines to get one soon) you could be on couple year pause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:
The problem that I have with that is that I never see anyone playing with their PA books in my area. I bought one of them (CSM was in it) and have never used anything from it. I have the same issue with Vigilus. I feel like all those books were very, very underwhelming in the rules department.

Here it's "don't bother playing without them". Too many free power boosts to ignore them.

Voted no, for couple of reasons

1. Necron models don't do anything for me, don't dislike them just not in the least interested
2. not interested in a rulebook you can kill people with a handful of pages of rules, will wait for an easier to carry version of it
3. have more than enough marines unpainted to be going on with
4. don't have the cash in the near future

nothing against it as a new edition, I just want a rulebook thats the rules only and cheap enough not to care when all but one page is invalidated within a year, don't need the models as I have tons to be going on with - will probably pick up a few at some point

4. is probably the least important right now actually, its at the end because regardless of price the contents don't really interest me

I have absolutely zero intention of giving GW any more money for a crap product. I need an edition or 2 of free products that have some actual quality before I am willing to give them a single red cent again.

Marines is also almost certainly one of the first Codex's.

And then the huge pile of addiotnal Marine Codexs/Supplements - what is there 10-15 now?

The only people who aren't buying this edition are the people who don't play anyway.

Yesterday I was furious about the announcement of 9th, and I cut a bitter streak across every online platform I use to let the world know exactly how angry I was. Today, I've put it in perspective. They call it 9th, but it's one of the soft reboots. Buying the new edition BRB will not "technically" be necessary, but it will be if you want to play all elements of the game.

The current battle primer contains no information about battle forged rules, and the new probably won't either. I like battle forged armies, and the rules around battle forging are one of the things that the new edition changes, so yeah, the new book is definitely something I'll get.

As for the box: I don't play marines, but because they come in every box, I have enough that I could definitely put together an army if I bought this box; I have Blood Angels from Spacehulk and Spacewolves from Tooth and Claw to add to the mix. I don't play Necrons either, though I like having many small forces available rather than having few large ones. Given all of that, the box is a possibility.

To repond to a few of the other posts in the thread:

Gw's release pace (in a Covid free discussion) isn't going to change. That means once PA is over, they either need another campaign to drive model releases or they need reprinted dexes.
Most of the people who have posted disapproval of 8th on Dakka have been very Anti-Campaign book. Either you get a campaign book grind or you get a codex grind. Choose your poison, because those are the options.

GW did not invest in the capacity to achieve this release schedule only to scale it back after releasing a new edition.

As for the Crusade and narrative folks; I think there are more of us than you think there are. I've played since 89 and I've never played against an opponent who hasn't played a 40k campaign. Many of them have played in stores, and even tournaments. But they don't define themselves as tournament players, and most prefer campaign play. Now that's my peer group, so it is in no way indicative of global trends.

But it looks like what will be happening is more campaign books that are linked to the Warhammer TV animations and the huge Black Library series. Those multi-media elements really have the capacity to drive campaign play. The new app factors into campaign play as well. If, in addition to list building features, it assists or automates the tracking of your Crusade... Well, why wouldn't you play Crusade style?

Because even when YOU are at a tournament playing what you perceive to be a series of unrelated one of missions, you might find that the people you're playing against are actually recording it as a Crusade game on their phone.

A while back, I watched my first Twitch battle report. It introduced me to the concept of celebrity players. There's some dude named Nick something, and the internet said he was a big deal, so I watched it, and it was kinda cool. I could see people talking to their friends after a tournament and bragging about "yeah, I played Nick what's his name in round three." Those war stories are cool.

I think what Crusade strives to do though, is create a situation where the players say, "Yeah, yesterday we fought against General X, Commander of the of the 5th company of the 625th Tallarn regiment." To which the tourney player says, "Oh, was that Nick what's his name's army."

And the Crusade player is like, "Who's Nick?"

And while I can see the appeal of following Nick what's his names career, I am all in to follow the life story of General X. No offense to Nick- I think most players would agree General X has a more interesting story. If the player was over the top about converting a model to represent General X, the story would be even cooler. So yeah, I'm all in for Crusade.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marines is also almost certainly one of the first Codex's.

And then the huge pile of addiotnal Marine Codexs/Supplements - what is there 10-15 now?

codex space marines. Faith and Fury, Vigilus defiant, the UM, IF, IH, RG, Sally, WS supplements. so.. 9 books. not including the marine stuff outside the codex which given that GW will count it seperately It's silly to count as part of that.

but yeah it'll be intreasting to see how that handles. will the old marine stuff be rendered obselete, or will GW keep it? my gut feeling is the 9th marine codex will simply be along the lines of the 2.0 chaos codex, where they update it with the new units and don't even adjust for errata.

PenitentJake wrote:
Yesterday I was furious about the announcement of 9th, and I cut a bitter streak across every online platform I use to let the world know exactly how angry I was. Today, I've put it in perspective. They call it 9th, but it's one of the soft reboots. Buying the new edition BRB will not "technically" be necessary, but it will be if you want to play all elements of the game.

The current battle primer contains no information about battle forged rules, and the new probably won't either. I like battle forged armies, and the rules around battle forging are one of the things that the new edition changes, so yeah, the new book is definitely something I'll get.

As for the box: I don't play marines, but because they come in every box, I have enough that I could definitely put together an army if I bought this box; I have Blood Angels from Spacehulk and Spacewolves from Tooth and Claw to add to the mix. I don't play Necrons either, though I like having many small forces available rather than having few large ones. Given all of that, the box is a possibility.

To repond to a few of the other posts in the thread:

Gw's release pace (in a Covid free discussion) isn't going to change. That means once PA is over, they either need another campaign to drive model releases or they need reprinted dexes.
Most of the people who have posted disapproval of 8th on Dakka have been very Anti-Campaign book. Either you get a campaign book grind or you get a codex grind. Choose your poison, because those are the options.

GW did not invest in the capacity to achieve this release schedule only to scale it back after releasing a new edition.

As for the Crusade and narrative folks; I think there are more of us than you think there are. I've played since 89 and I've never played against an opponent who hasn't played a 40k campaign. Many of them have played in stores, and even tournaments. But they don't define themselves as tournament players, and most prefer campaign play. Now that's my peer group, so it is in no way indicative of global trends.

But it looks like what will be happening is more campaign books that are linked to the Warhammer TV animations and the huge Black Library series. Those multi-media elements really have the capacity to drive campaign play. The new app factors into campaign play as well. If, in addition to list building features, it assists or automates the tracking of your Crusade... Well, why wouldn't you play Crusade style?

Because even when YOU are at a tournament playing what you perceive to be a series of unrelated one of missions, you might find that the people you're playing against are actually recording it as a Crusade game on their phone.

A while back, I watched my first Twitch battle report. It introduced me to the concept of celebrity players. There's some dude named Nick something, and the internet said he was a big deal, so I watched it, and it was kinda cool. I could see people talking to their friends after a tournament and bragging about "yeah, I played Nick what's his name in round three." Those war stories are cool.

I think what Crusade strives to do though, is create a situation where the players say, "Yeah, yesterday we fought against General X, Commander of the of the 5th company of the 625th Tallarn regiment." To which the tourney player says, "Oh, was that Nick what's his name's army."

And the Crusade player is like, "Who's Nick?"

And while I can see the appeal of following Nick what's his names career, I am all in to follow the life story of General X. No offense to Nick- I think most players would agree General X has a more interesting story. If the player was over the top about converting a model to represent General X, the story would be even cooler. So yeah, I'm all in for Crusade.

I got the impression from the way the designers were talking crusade is something altogether different and not compatible with matched play in any way, unfortunately it seems to be trying to bring back the old school RPG stule elements from necromunda and kill team into 40k where you get rec points per game and they allow you to buy skills and upgrades. What your describing sounds actually way better and much more useful that what GW have apparently decied to add to the BRB and the upcoming codex's.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Marines is also almost certainly one of the first Codex's.

And then the huge pile of addiotnal Marine Codexs/Supplements - what is there 10-15 now?

They confirmed on the stream the new marine codex has already been written as the quoted some crusade upgrade thats in the spacemarine codex.

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

you could use your old 4th edition codex in 5th edition, but people still expected you to adapt the 5E rules

Well yeah but until there is 9th ed codex for your faction there's no point selling 8th ed codex. In fact depending on faction you are looking at couple year wait easily before you could then play game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Both my local stores will fully convert, so I'll unload all my 8th edition books and buy into 9th.

considering it is no hard reboot, and that you can use for the forseable future both vigilus and PA there's no real need i think.

I don't buy it. My bet is that all the codexes will be redone, with the exception of stuff that released since the CSM Book II. Obviously Necrons is getting a new codex, we've seen the pictures. The fact that they're saying "If you buy the physical, you'll get the digital" just screams they're going to remove the older books as much as possible in the coming months.

Well yeah. GW flat out says they wil redo. They aren't being dishonest there. They ADMIT they will redo codexes.

But those won't pop in release. It took 1.5 years for orks to get 8th ed codex. Sisters got about 2.5 years.

And in 9th ed there's less rush to get codex out as they still have codex so don't expect the 1-2 codex per month rate they had.

So there's very little reason to sell 8th ed codexes right now UNLESS you plan to put 40k on hold until codex comes out and depending on your faction(note we won't have any idea on order except fairly safe bet for necrons and marines to get one soon) you could be on couple year pause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:
The problem that I have with that is that I never see anyone playing with their PA books in my area. I bought one of them (CSM was in it) and have never used anything from it. I have the same issue with Vigilus. I feel like all those books were very, very underwhelming in the rules department.

Here it's "don't bother playing without them". Too many free power boosts to ignore them.

I suspect it varies. I play Black Legion, so 99% of my stuff comes from Vigilus, which I copied down onto a sheet of paper and stuck in my codex so I don't have to carry so much.

Box 100%, as I have an existing Necron army I can expand.