Necron 9th edition general discussion thread.

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**JNAProductions**

Okay-that was not clear.

**Cynista**

p5freak wrote:

Why did we gather this blackstone stuff which can nullify/absorb psychic energies, when we dont use it ??

One of many valid questions GW should be held to account for. Others include;

Why does the new Monolith have Blackstone built into the sculpt, with no rules?

Why does the Skopekh Lord have no weapon options whatsoever?

Why is the Veil of Darkness CORE only?

Why force us to choose between a Canoptek Cloak and Control Node?

Why is there only 8 generic relics?

Why are the 270 point T.Ctan and the 350 point Deceiver STR 6 with 4+ saves?

Why are Tesla Spheres still AP 0 & D 1?

Why still can't we mix shields and scythes with Lychguard?

And dozens more

I know I sound like a broken record, but the more I read the book, the worse it looks and I think it will be the general consensus soon

**BroodSpawn**

Cynista wrote:
p5freak wrote:

Why did we gather this blackstone stuff which can nullify/absorb psychic energies, when we dont use it ??

One of many valid questions GW should be held to account for. Others include;

Why does the new Monolith have Blackstone built into the sculpt, with no rules?

Why does the Skopekh Lord have no weapon options whatsoever?

Why is the Veil of Darkness CORE only?

Why force us to choose between a Canoptek Cloak and Control Node?

Why is there only 8 generic relics?

Why are the 270 point T.Ctan and the 350 point Deceiver STR 6 with 4+ saves?

Why are Tesla Spheres still AP 0 & D 1?

Why still can't we mix shields and scythes with Lychguard?

And dozens more

I know I sound like a broken record, but the more I read the book, the worse it looks and I think it will be the general consensus soon

This just reads as a 'but I want it my way' moan as opposed to anything constructive.
Let's use Tesla as an example.
Why is Tesla Ap0 1D? Well let's see.. if you make it 2D that's and (quick maths based on 10 guys hitting on 3's) you still have about 20 hits. At S5 you're wounding T4 on 3's. Let's call it 14 wounds. Every failed save is 2D. Every failed save removes a marine, or forces 2 FnP saves, or chips down a vehicle fast.
Add in AP-1 and your damage increases, especially if it's stacked with Mephrit.

Tesla did not need a buff like that.

What it looks like you're complaining about is that you can't roll 3's, then 3's and just remove any non-3w model per attack from the table. That kind of action is not good for the game as a whole.

**Cynista**

BroodSpawn wrote:
This just reads as a 'but I want it my way' moan as opposed to anything constructive.
Let's use Tesla as an example.
Why is Tesla Ap0 1D? Well let's see.. if you make it 2D that's and (quick maths based on 10 guys hitting on 3's) you still have about 20 hits. At S5 you're wounding T4 on 3's. Let's call it 14 wounds. Every failed save is 2D. Every failed save removes a marine, or forces 2 FnP saves, or chips down a vehicle fast.
Add in AP-1 and your damage increases, especially if it's stacked with Mephrit.

Tesla did not need a buff like that.

What it looks like you're complaining about is that you can't roll 3's, then 3's and just remove any non-3w model per attack from the table. That kind of action is not good for the game as a whole.

Yeah, no

I said Tesla Sphere's, not Tesla in general. They are only on the Obelisk and T. Vault which are 370 and 500 points respectively. Don't try to tell me that D2 or some AP would be OP for such vastly expensive models.

I'm not attempting to be constructive here, I'm pointing out some obviously bad decisions in a book full of them. As for your last sentence, that's just a ridiculous statement in bad faith. Don't assume that's my take when I said nothing of the sort.

**Argive**

Cynista wrote:
p5freak wrote:

Why did we gather this blackstone stuff which can nullify/absorb psychic energies, when we dont use it ??

One of many valid questions GW should be held to account for. Others include;

Why does the new Monolith have Blackstone built into the sculpt, with no rules?

Why does the Skopekh Lord have no weapon options whatsoever?

Why is the Veil of Darkness CORE only?

Why force us to choose between a Canoptek Cloak and Control Node?

Why is there only 8 generic relics?

Why are the 270 point T.Ctan and the 350 point Deceiver STR 6 with 4+ saves?

Why are Tesla Spheres still AP 0 & D 1?

Why still can't we mix shields and scythes with Lychguard?

And dozens more

I know I sound like a broken record, but the more I read the book, the worse it looks and I think it will be the general consensus soon

"dear user of NPC race #2 Because you are not a space marine therefore...nobody cares. Sincerly GW".

What's there to be constructive about ? There's is a proposed rules section of the forum for wish listing.

In current reality, compare the two codices side by side and its laughibly clear which one is just much better, easier to use has more options and is easy to synergise..

Of course lets wait and see...How dare people have opinions.

**Sasori**

Someone posted the math about the new QS over on reddit. TLDR: It's generally much better and suprsingly durable even against stuff like Eradicators

On the post yesterday about the death of vehicle heavy lists in the new eradicator world there was a lot of discussion about the viability of Necron ghost arks given the relative survivability provided by quantum shielding. The most common opinion in that thread was that with the exception very high damage weapons (such as new melta) the new quantum shielding rules make ghost arks more durable than the old rules. I thought I would see if that stands up to the test and mathhammer the expected damage of some common weapon profiles against the old and new rules.

For those of you not familiar with Necron rules the ghost ark in the new codex is T6, 14W with a 3+ save and has the quantum shielding rule which lets it ignore unmodified wound roles of 1-3 and give it a 5++ (which can be boosted to 4++ for a phase for 1cp). In 8th Ed the ark instead had a 4+ save and quantum shielding let you role a d6 when wounded and if it was less than the damage of that wound you ignored it completely (you could spend 1cp to subtract 1 from this role for a phase which was weirdly faq’d to be the only situation in 8th where a role could be modified to be less than 1). What this meant in practice was that under the old rules ghost arks melted to high rate of fire D2 and D3 weapons such as autocannons and plasma while being very resilient to high damage weapons.

The below table shows the expected damage per hit for each weapon profile against an 8th ed ghost ark, 9th ed ghost ark, 8th ed ark using the stratagem, and 9th ed ark using the stratagem. Bold numbers show the more resilient profile, italic are more resilient with the stratagem.

Name Profile 8th 9th 8th+ 9th+
Bolter 4 0 1 0.17 0.11 0.14 0.11
Heavy Bolter 5 -1 2 0.37 0.33 0.30 0.33
Grav cannon 5 -3 1 0.33 0.44 0.28 0.33
Gauss cannon 6 -3 D3 0.78 0.67 0.61 0.5
Autocannon 7 -1 2 0.74 0.5 0.59 0.5
Stormcannon 7 -2 2 0.93 0.67 0.74 0.5
Predator Autocannon 7 -1 3 0.89 0.75 0.67 0.75
Plasma overcharge 8 -3 2 1.11 0.67 0.89 0.5
Lascannon 9 -3 D6 1.04 1.17 0.65 0.88
Melta 8 -4 D6 1.04 1.17 0.65 0.88
Melta (1/2 range) 8 -4 D6+2 0.74 1.83 0.41 1.38
Heavy Melta rifle (1/2 range) 8 -4 D6+4 0.3 2.5 0.09 1.88
Heavy Death Ray 12 -4 D3+3 1.3 1.67 0.6 1.25
Gauss Pylon 16 -5 D3+6 0 2.67 0 2.0
What we see here is that as expected the new ark rules make it more resilient to high volume low damage fire, partly due to the improvement from 4+ to 3+ save against low AP weapons (which notably makes it weaker against grav weapons although since grav devastators have been heavily nerfed this isn't that much of an issue). Especially against higher strength and ap D2 weapons such as overcharged plasma the new quantum shielding rules make the ark over 50% more durable. Once the average damage of a weapon starts to get above 3 then the new ghost ark starts to become increasingly more vulnerable compared to the old profile to the point where half range heavy melta rifles would be 8 times less effective against the old profile (or 20 times with the stray). While there were some comments on the previous thread about how the change to quantum shielding was made entirely to sell the new eradicators the data shows that the change was actually made because Forgeworld weren't selling enough titan killing Gauss Pylons /s! In seriousness I can see why the rule was changed because it would have been ridiculous having a feels bad situation where dedicated close range antitank models were trying to run away from the enemy tanks to get to their "weaker" profiles above half range.

What the mathhammer does show is that ghost arks are indeed remarkably tanky against basically all weapons for their 145 point cost. Even heavy melta armed eradicators in half range need an average of 6 hits (and therefore 7 - 9 shots depending on rerolls) to destroy a ghost ark (9 - 12 shots vs the 4++), which requires 180 - 270 points of some of the most efficient ranged anti tank unit in the game to take down. In conclusion the new quantum shielding rules provide a significant defensive boost against "light" anti tank weapons while still providing a decent defense against dedicated anti tank and ghost arks in particular may be a good pick with the new codex.

P.S. I picked the weapon profiles in the table almost at random based on what I thought was a representative coverage of most weapon types. let me know if there's anything else that you'd like me to include and I'll edit the table accordingly!

**vipoid**

Cynista wrote:

Why does the Skopekh Lord have no weapon options whatsoever?

Why force us to choose between a Canoptek Cloak and Control Node?

I imagine the answer to these is 'the models are built that way'.

Remember, GW does models first and then just throws them at the rules team to do something with.

Cynista wrote:
Why is there only 8 generic relics?

To be honest, I don't think the number of Relics is particularly bad. It's just that so many of the ones we got look pretty dismal.

Lightning Field and Timesplinter Cloak are gone entirely (I can maybe understand the former going, given that CCBs now have built-in invuls, but why on earth was the latter removed?), as is the Abyssal Staff.

Nanoscarab Casket is now an entirely different artefact, which outright lost its most fun ability (because who wants Necrons that get back up, right?

). But that's okay because now other units can take it... even though there's no longer any reason to do so.

The Gauntlet of the Conflagrator was retained, as was the depressing slab that is the Sempiternal Weave. Oh, and the Blood Scythe is apparently still around, though why anyone would take it over the Voidreaper is a question yet to be answered.

In terms of new stuff, we have gems like:

The Arrow of Infinity. A bafflingly named weapon as it has neither infinite range nor an infinite number of shots.

You'll forgive me if I'm still not a fan of one-shot weapons that are just begging to roll a 1 on the hit/wound roll.

The Star Conduit. Hey, remember how the Nanoscarab Casket had to be nerfed to hell because in 8th only one model could take it and that wasn't acceptable? Well here's a gun that only one model is able to take!

The Ruler's Diadem. zzzzzzzzzZZZZ

**yukishiro1**

The relics and warlord traits in the new Necron book are straight-up terrible. If it was the first book you could say it was a trend and GW was trying to get away from super powerful relics and traits...except that the SM codex's relics and warlord traits are way, way, way better, to the point that even comparing them is embarrassing.

I don't know why or how GW seems to be unable to learn that it isn't good game design to give SM stuff that's just better than everyone else's stuff, because <reasons>.

The Necrons codex is in a weird place because on the one hand it is vastly better than the prior Necrons codex and has vastly better internal balance...but yet it's also significantly inferior to the other codex that comes out at the same time. It's really disappointing to see GW evidently hasn't learned its lesson on not overtuning space marines.

**Cynista**

IMO the only actually good relic is the Voltaic Staff for a Technomancer or a CCB/Overlord. And the only Warlord trait i'd take is Enduring Will. Everything else seems medicore or just bad. Options in the 8th ed codex were a lot better, it's mind boggling from GW

vipoid wrote:
Cynista wrote:

Why does the Skopekh Lord have no weapon options whatsoever?

Why force us to choose between a Canoptek Cloak and Control Node?

I imagine the answer to these is 'the models are built that way'.

Remember, GW does models first and then just throws them at the rules team to do something with.

I am genuinely surprised that the Skorpekh Lord is not a build-your-own-hero unit, like a Hive Tyrant or Demon Prince. I fully expected the monopose version from Indomitus to not enter production and a new multi-part kit released with tons of options. It seems like an obvious win win scenario for everyone.

**vipoid**

yukishiro1 wrote:
The relics and warlord traits in the new Necron book are straight-up terrible. If it was the first book you could say it was a trend and GW was trying to get away from super powerful relics and traits...except that the SM codex's relics and warlord traits are way, way, way better, to the point that even comparing them is embarrassing.

Yeah, it seems like they were trying to play it really safe with the Necron relics, going for the most boring and limited effects possible.

And I could understand that for the first codex... if they hadn't gone in the opposite direction for Space Marines.

And the fact that SMs literally have versions of our relics that our just outright better is especially galling.

**Xenomancers**

Voltaic staff and veil of darkness are the only relics I will use with any frequency.

**Acehilator**

Not sure what the problem is with the relics and WL traits... like wtf?

When using Warriors and/or Immortal blobs:
- Overlord with Phaeron upgrade
- Thrall of the Silent King WL trait
- Orb of Eternity

One dope package.

Senor Skorpekh (defensive setup):
- Eternal Pride
- Nanoscarab Casket

Second dope package.

Coming to get ya CCB (offensive setup):
- Honorable Combatant
- Voidreaper

Third dope package.

That's with just the common relics and WL traits. Immortal Pride is situationally useful when running 40+ Warriors, and the Veil of Darkness is auto-take. 5 out of the 6 Dynasty-specific WL traits are really good too (everything but Novokh), and 2 of the 6 specific artefacts.

After typing up this summary, I realize that the selection is not only not bad, but actually really good.

**Darsath**

Acehilator wrote:
Not sure what the problem is with the relics and WL traits... like wtf?

When using Warriors and/or Immortal blobs:
- Overlord with Phaeron upgrade
- Thrall of the Silent King WL trait
- Orb of Eternity

One dope package.

Senor Skorpekh (defensive setup):
- Eternal Pride
- Nanoscarab Casket

Second dope package.

Coming to get ya CCB (offensive setup):
- Honorable Combatant
- Voidreaper

Third dope package.

That's with just the common relics and WL traits. Immortal Pride is situationally useful when running 40+ Warriors, and the Veil of Darkness is auto-take. 5 out of the 6 Dynasty-specific WL traits are really good too (everything but Novokh), and 2 of the 6 specific artefacts.

After typing up this summary, I realize that the selection is not only not bad, but actually really good.

Ironically, you made the choices sound worse than I was thinking before. I still think a Command Barge with Voidreaper and Enduring Will is the way to go.

**Slayer-Fan123**

The Nanoscarabs are absolutely TERRIBLE now.

**Xenomancers**

duplicated.

I think there is just a very limited group of effective things in the relic section. Those options are quite good though.

**Tiberius501**

I’m a fan of all the Szarekhan stuff. Their trait to take 4 protocols instead of 5 and have 1 active for 2 turns is quite nice and their relic to provide 9” range for protocols from the Warlord and all core units getting both directives from the protocols within his range is really nice and all makes protocols more useful.

**Kharne the Befriender**

Tiberius501 wrote:
I’m a fan of all the Szarekhan stuff. Their trait to take 4 protocols instead of 5 and have 1 active for 2 turns is quite nice and their relic to provide 9” range for protocols from the Warlord and all core units getting both directives from the protocols within his range is really nice and all makes protocols more useful.

Just finished my first game with the new codex, 1400pts. I used that exact setup and it won me the game, granted I was playing orks and with a rather unoptimized list, but that combo worked.

Another combo I setup was a technomancer with Control Node and the Fail Safe Overcharger following a unit of 5 wraiths, did well but maintaining the 6" distance is difficult, maybe not at first but as soon as the wraiths charge they're out of range next turn as the technomancer has likely advanced to keep up. The Technomancer would be ace if you could take the cloak and the node but that won't happen

**CthuluIsSpy**

The canoptek cloak and control node should really be part of the same item.

I mean, its called a Canoptek Cloak, why wouldn't it have a control node built into it?

**Voss**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The canoptek cloak and control node should really be part of the same item.

I mean, its called a Canoptek Cloak, why wouldn't it have a control node built into it?

Because neither 'cloak' nor 'canoptek' have any implicit or explicit meaning connected them with the idea that they control stuff or act as a hub for controlling stuff.
I'm completely at a loss as to what the logic here is supposed to be.

I get that one or both may be underpowered, but not that they present some sort of inherent meaning that encompasses both effects.

**Cynista**

They do feel like one wargear item that was split into two though, because reasons. It's a shame because the Technomancer would be an A+ support unit if he could use both and I would happily pay the 20 points. I'd pay 30 even

**Kharne the Befriender**

An interesting concept would be to swap the abilities. Make the cloak 10" FLY with the +1 to hit aura and rename the node to be the repairing a vehicle ability, that seems more reasonable to me.

Agreed though, I'd be willing to pay extra to take both

**Sasori**

I think the Cloak should have just been baked in, and you can still purhcase the node if you need it.

It almost seems like this distinction exists because they are still going to sell that crappy finecast model.

**Xenomancers**

Sasori wrote:
I think the Cloak should have just been baked in, and you can still purhcase the node if you need it.

It almost seems like this distinction exists because they are still going to sell that crappy finecast model.

I plan on converting a technomancer unless they make a new model for it.

It is a real bummer he can't repair and buff like a tech marines...

**-Ňecrontyr-**

Think Technomancer is supposed to your average run-of-the-mill cyptek model

**Claas**

-Ňecrontyr- wrote:
Think Technomancer is supposed to your average run-of-the-mill cyptek model

I believe that is the case.

**yukishiro1**

Acehilator wrote:
Not sure what the problem is with the relics and WL traits... like wtf?

When using Warriors and/or Immortal blobs:
- Overlord with Phaeron upgrade
- Thrall of the Silent King WL trait
- Orb of Eternity

One dope package.

Senor Skorpekh (defensive setup):
- Eternal Pride
- Nanoscarab Casket

Second dope package.

Coming to get ya CCB (offensive setup):
- Honorable Combatant
- Voidreaper

Third dope package.

That's with just the common relics and WL traits. Immortal Pride is situationally useful when running 40+ Warriors, and the Veil of Darkness is auto-take. 5 out of the 6 Dynasty-specific WL traits are really good too (everything but Novokh), and 2 of the 6 specific artefacts.

After typing up this summary, I realize that the selection is not only not bad, but actually really good.

Those are all terrible packages, lol. Honorable combatant is terrible. Nanoscarab casket is terrible, and goes to only bad when combined with the -1D. Immortal pride (I am assuming this is what you meant, there is no such thing as eternal pride; if you meant eternal madness that is terrible on a skorpekh lord since he rerolls 1s to wound anyhow natively).

The only good generic warlord trait is the -1D, on either a Skorpekh or Command Barge, which ironically you haven't even included. Sautek and Szarekh have pretty good warlord traits, but nothing exceptional.

The only really good generic relic is the staff. The veil is now only good in very specific builds, because of the <CORE> restriction. Voidreaper is a decent weapon, but overlords are bad, and on a command barge you want to take the staff instead. Orb of eternity is bad; you are hardly ever going to get to use it to bring back more than like 2 dudes above what the normal orb would, unless your opponent is a dope.

It's just not a good selection, aside from the -1D trait and the staff, both of which are very good.

**Cynista**

Preach. The fact there's only one standout Warlord trait is really incredibly frustrating if you want to use both a Noble HQ and give -1D to a Skorpekh Lord or Cryptek. Because that's a waste of a CP

edit - I think Eternal Madness for the Noble of your choice and -1D for the Skorpekh/Cryptek is the only real compromise. Everything else is just bad.

**yukishiro1**

If eternal madness worked at range too it'd be great, but nobles really don't want to be in melee IMO unless maybe they have the -1D, and even then it's questionable.

But yeah, there's not a lot of options. Sautekh and Szarekh you obviously take those warlord traits. If you don't have access to those, I'd probably lean towards thrall instead of eternal madness, but neither are exactly great, and the others are just bad.

**Cynista**

Yeah I'm not planning on using a named Dynasty so have to choose from pile of meh. Since the CCB is a vehicle and can shoot in combat I'd say it's the one noble you'll want in melee. 9 wounds and new QS make it pretty tanky against the sort of things that'll be hitting it anyway

I'm really starting to think the CCB will be an allstar again, just like in 7th. Shame I sold mine 6 months ago lol.

**yukishiro1**

Yeah, the CCB is far and away the best noble unit. Not that that is saying much. Lords are meme-level bad, and overlords are only a little better.

Also, why oh why does the Skorpekh lord have a crappier version of the weapon the normal Skorpekh destroyer has? Great going there guys, give the lord the unwieldy crappy version of the weapon, and the normal dude the better one that doesn't have the -1 to hit. I am almost considering ditching the Skorpekh lord entirely and either just putting the -1W on the CCB with the staff, or running 2 CCBs, one with voidreaper and the -1D and the other with the staff and no warlord trait because they're all pants.