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PenitentJake wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Continuing with the highly degenerate and toxic UGO/IGO system is pointless.

They've got several other games using alternating activations which are all universally considered better than 8th, yet they've chosen to ignore it.

No reason to even read more about 9th.

I won't tell you to quit and sell your models (though it's an option).

But I will tell you to play Kill Team or Apocalypse and leave the rest of us alone. Only because this topic comes up all the time, and I always write lengthy posts that are diplomatic and polite. It is perhaps unfair to assume that you are the same person, or one of the group who consistently post this, but there you have it.

I've been politely pointing out for two years that you can solve your own problem, and that if you refuse to do so, it is a choice. And only you are in charge of your choices.

For those of us that have enjoyed IGOUGO for 31 uninterrupted years, when GW says: the game you love, only better, well, we're the ones they are talking to; I respect AA games. They are fun- I have two by GW that I can play. 40k is what I play when I feel like a break from AA, which is frequently, because AA games don't let you take breaks

But I guess some people prefer a world where only they win to a world where everybody wins, so some people will always suggest modifying everything to fit their desires rather than using the tools they've already been given.

Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

9th might have some rules that can be transplanted with apocalypse to be a functional and decent game. But 9th being igougo is a deal breaker.

2nd-4th editions were great IGO/UGO game systems. When warhammer 40k entered its dark years (5,6,7) some of the quirks associated with the system really became apparent. If 9th tones down the lethality of alpha striking IGO/UGO will be fine. It is understandably frustrating for a player to spend all the time and energy in putting an army on the table only to watch it get tabled in the first shooting phase.

Though I suspect GW is aware of all this and perhaps 10th edition will result in an entirely new mode of playing (didn't the whiteboard say something about no dice and coins?)

Anyway, getting tabled turn 1 sucks, but so does getting salty. Its a game - part of the strategy is not getting tilted. Go read a book or something if it bugs you too much. Or just learn 2 play. The choice is yours!

@K_K, I posted that in regard to Slayerfan’s post but yeah I see how you’re “defending” IGO/UGO with, shall we say, eyes wide open.

But I think your analysis is more fitting for last-era GW. Keep in mind that this-era GW kicked off with AoS, which dispensed with one of the biggest sacred cows, points. This was super controversial but in the long run has been pretty well-received with most people I know who continue to play 40k preferring PL to points.

2nd-4th editions were great IGO/UGO game systems. When warhammer 40k entered its dark years (5,6,7) some of the quirks associated with the system really became apparent. If 9th tones down the lethality of alpha striking IGO/UGO will be fine. It is understandably frustrating for a player to spend all the time and energy in putting an army on the table only to watch it get tabled in the first shooting phase.

Though I suspect GW is aware of all this and perhaps 10th edition will result in an entirely new mode of playing (didn't the whiteboard say something about no dice and coins?)

Anyway, getting tabled turn 1 sucks, but so does getting salty. Its a game - part of the strategy is not getting tilted. Go read a book or something if it bugs you too much. Or just learn 2 play. The choice is yours!

 Sasori wrote:
There are plenty of merits for both systems, but this thread wasn't framed for a discussion.

Nevertheless, there’s something worth discussing here, obviously.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

Some people are fine with IGOUGO, and don't mind not being active for half an hour. Others don't, and some of those people hate it so much that they make threads clearly brooking no discussion like this one. Why are those people still active in the community? At that point, why even pick up their fingers to type?

Been using AA instead of IGOUGO since start of 8E. I don't need GW's permission to do so.

Biggest hindrance to me as far as 40K goes has been setup & teardown. If that didn't take so long, I'd probably get a lot more games in.

 Manchu wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
There are plenty of merits for both systems, but this thread wasn't framed for a discussion.

Nevertheless, there’s something worth discussing here, obviously.

Then why not start a clean thread with the intent of discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the systems? This thread if full of posts telling the OP to leave, sell his models, 9th is dead, etc and will continue to pop up because of the OP.

As far as we know 9th is much less lethal than 8th (CP are not fronloaded but given turn by turn), so there isn't a strict need for IGOUGO.

IGO/UGO can certainly work, but admittedly GW has done its utmost over the various editions to make the system seem heavily lop-sided.

In our group we use IGO/UGO but the current turn player moves OR shoots first and then the other player has some options to react before the first player finishes his turn.

It's not alternate unit activation, which I find very tedious, slow and clumsy. I guess my point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with IGO/UGO, just the way it is implemented...especially by GW. But this next edition may do wonders to alleviate its issues. I guess we'll see.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

Some people are fine with IGOUGO, and don't mind not being active for half an hour. Others don't, and some of those people hate it so much that they make threads clearly brooking no discussion like this one. Why are those people still active in the community? At that point, why even pick up their fingers to type?

Except, why is it okay? After all, a lot of the people that defend the IGOUGO system are the same people that say that pregame negotiations are fine, and if you don't like that you're antisocial. Why shouldn't the game be the actual social interaction?

Dear lord this really is peak dakka, isn't it?

Not yet. For that to happen we need someone to come in, be the "voice of reason" and explain to us that, before we can even consider the statements in the OP, we need to all define, and agree upon said definitions for the phrases "IGOUGO", "9th ed" and "Dead in the water". After about 20 pages of that, THEN, and ONLY THEN will it be "Peak Dakka"

Been using AA instead of IGOUGO since start of 8E.

That's interesting. I've been curious if it would work without major rewrites to some other things. Obviously you liked it since you said you've been doing it since the start of 8th, but do you have any notes or anything we might find interesting? Things it fixed, things it didn't fix, anything you had to change to accommodate it? I'd be interested in hearing all of that.

I think alternating activation is more interesting and engaging, but if GW is going to stick with the current approach they should at least go for a better version of it like the one KoW uses. In KoW the person whose turn it is rolls all of the dice, which greatly speeds up the game and makes it a lot more clock friendly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

Some people are fine with IGOUGO, and don't mind not being active for half an hour. Others don't, and some of those people hate it so much that they make threads clearly brooking no discussion like this one. Why are those people still active in the community? At that point, why even pick up their fingers to type?

Except, why is it okay?

Why isn't it? You think that waiting half an hour is bad, I don't mind it. Sounds more like a difference of opinion there, not some kind of objective wrong.

After all, a lot of the people that defend the IGOUGO system are the same people that say that pregame negotiations are fine, and if you don't like that you're antisocial. Why shouldn't the game be the actual social interaction?

The pre-game negotations are part of the game. The banter between the players in between dice being rolled is part of the game.

At least, to me. I'm not going to pretend that those standards apply to everyone, nor am I going to say that you're wrong if you don't think so. But if OP's reaction to hearing that IGOUGO is still around is calling it "toxic" and "degenerate", why bother sticking around and interacting? At a certain point, it goes from criticism to masochism.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

Some people are fine with IGOUGO, and don't mind not being active for half an hour. Others don't, and some of those people hate it so much that they make threads clearly brooking no discussion like this one. Why are those people still active in the community? At that point, why even pick up their fingers to type?

Except, why is it okay?

Why isn't it? You think that waiting half an hour is bad, I don't mind it. Sounds more like a difference of opinion there, not some kind of objective wrong.

After all, a lot of the people that defend the IGOUGO system are the same people that say that pregame negotiations are fine, and if you don't like that you're antisocial. Why shouldn't the game be the actual social interaction?

The pre-game negotations are part of the game. The banter between the players in between dice being rolled is part of the game.

At least, to me. I'm not going to pretend that those standards apply to everyone, nor am I going to say that you're wrong if you don't think so. But if OP's reaction to hearing that IGOUGO is still around is calling it "toxic" and "degenerate", why bother sticking around and interacting? At a certain point, it goes from criticism to masochism.

You say you don't mind it. That doesn't mean you like it.

So the real question is whether you LIKE waiting for half an hour or just accept it for what it is. The latter implies there's a problem.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You say you don't mind it. That doesn't mean you like it.

So the real question is whether you LIKE waiting for half an hour or just accept it for what it is. The latter implies there's a problem.

No, it means it's not a problem in my gaming experience, and I have no objection to it being in the game. What I expect out of Kill Team (which is AA) and 40k (which is IGOUGO) are managed by what I expect from those systems, and I enjoy them in their own respective manners appropriately.

I see no problem personally.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You say you don't mind it. That doesn't mean you like it.

So the real question is whether you LIKE waiting for half an hour or just accept it for what it is. The latter implies there's a problem.

Not at all.

Things aren't EXTREME ZERO/SUM Slayer. Not minding something doesn't imply 'there's a problem' at all.

I don't mind crime shows on tv.

I don't mind my wife's favourite bands.

I don't mind the colour red.

Nothing there implies there is a problem. Or that I have a problem with any of these things. At worst, it implies neutrality.

Now regarding liking Igougo, it's necessary for certain styles of game. Synergy/Combo-focussed games like Warmachine work because you have full access to your army and full control of your turn in order to work the gears in the right way. I enjoyed Warmachine for years.

Heck, Igougo doesn't even necessarily prevent active countering on the part of the other person - take for example games like infinity (interrupted Igougo) or gw's old lotr sbg (and plenty historicals) with their broken phase Igougo.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Continuing with the highly degenerate and toxic UGO/IGO system is pointless.

They've got several other games using alternating activations which are all universally considered better than 8th, yet they've chosen to ignore it.

No reason to even read more about 9th.

I won't tell you to quit and sell your models (though it's an option).

But I will tell you to play Kill Team or Apocalypse and leave the rest of us alone. Only because this topic comes up all the time, and I always write lengthy posts that are diplomatic and polite. It is perhaps unfair to assume that you are the same person, or one of the group who consistently post this, but there you have it.

I've been politely pointing out for two years that you can solve your own problem, and that if you refuse to do so, it is a choice. And only you are in charge of your choices.

For those of us that have enjoyed IGOUGO for 31 uninterrupted years, when GW says: the game you love, only better, well, we're the ones they are talking to; I respect AA games. They are fun- I have two by GW that I can play. 40k is what I play when I feel like a break from AA, which is frequently, because AA games don't let you take breaks

But I guess some people prefer a world where only they win to a world where everybody wins, so some people will always suggest modifying everything to fit their desires rather than using the tools they've already been given.

Why are you playing to take a break? Why bother to even get out models if you have a sensation of "I can't wait for the opponent to take their turn so I can do nothing for half an hour?" At that point...why even pick up a game?

Because I'm one of those people for whom a games night is a social event. When we play 40k, it's usually a kid of party. Theirs usually two or three other people in the room who may not be playing, and we're there to visit them as much as we are to play the game. I know a lot of people who post on Dakka don't share that experience, because the average Dakka user seems to play in stores and at tournaments; seldom have I done so in my 31 years of playing (though it has happened once or twice, it is never as fun as campaigning beer hammer).

It is also for this reason that I think Dakka is sometimes unaware of how many players like me exist; we're there, I assure you. I also believe we outnumber tournament players, but not as many of us post here, so it's easy to underestimate our numbers when Dakka is your goto frame of reference.

I have also used this analogy:

AA is like Tennis, Basket Ball, or Hockey- it's fast paced and exciting all the way through and some people prefer that.
IGOUGO is like American football or Baseball, which both have distinctive offense/ defense phases that create a specific rhythm that other people prefer.

Most people who have difficulty seeing it when viewed through the lens of warhammer can see the contrast more easily when talking about sports- especially those who like both, because they know that the feelings that get from each sport is different, and that sometimes you're in the mood for one and sometimes the other.

And that does describe me too, because sometimes I feel like high energy AA. When I do, I play Kill Team, Apocalypse or Blackstone instead of playing 40k when I know it isn't what in the mood for and then whining about it on the Internet. See how everybody wins and I win twice because I like both styles at different times and GW is awesome enough toi give me all the tools that I need to be a grown up and solve my own problems?

Are we clear yet, or will you not be happy until everything in the world is designed for you and only you?

Shame there isn't a defensive Phase though.

I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

I don't think they are getting rid of auras.

 vipoid wrote:
I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

Agree but maybee fw Indexes and some of the more ridicoulousness gets Toned down a bit?

PenitentJake wrote:
Most people who have difficulty seeing it when viewed through the lens of warhammer can see the contrast more easily when talking about sports- especially those who like both, because they know that the feelings that get from each sport is different, and that sometimes you're in the mood for one and sometimes the other.

And that does describe me too, because sometimes I feel like high energy AA. When I do, I play Kill Team, Apocalypse or Blackstone instead of playing 40k when I know it isn't what in the mood for and then whining about it on the Internet.

Agree with the whole post, but especially this bit at the end. If I found 40k dull or boring because of IGOUGO, why would I play 40k and complain about it, when I could put my models to use by playing Kill Team, Apocalypse, or just playing another game entirely?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Shame there isn't a defensive Phase though.

Not formally, but using all my defensive strats to interfere with my enemy's shooting does feel like a defensive phase for me, as does counter attacking if I survive an enemy's charge, or denying my opponent's witchery.

When I want a stronger feeling of playing Defense then that, I play Blood Bowl, though I can only do that when someone's willing to lend me a team since I don't own one myself. I often have a spare kill team or two when they need one, so it tends to work out.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

Agree but maybee fw Indexes and some of the more ridicoulousness gets Toned down a bit?

Yeah, well, wake me when they bring back Corsairs.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

Agree but maybee fw Indexes and some of the more ridicoulousness gets Toned down a bit?

The new FW books being released for 9th were written by the main studio. If anything, they'll be toned UP.

 vipoid wrote:
I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

This is kinda where I'm at. My big worry is that the lethality is only going to increase further, which admittedly is exacerbated by IGOUGO, but I'm not going to call 9E dead on arrival either. All in all, it's looking to be to 8th was 4E was to 3E, in which case, most people who are happy with (or who will at least tolerate) 8th will be with 9th.

 vipoid wrote:
I think 9th being IGOUGO was inevitable. It's disappointing, perhaps, but not something I'd consider a deal-breaker.

My main concern, however, is that I'm not convinced 9th is going to actually fix any of the other problems with 8th.

Not sure if their fix will work, but we know they're trying to fix cover, which is probably the single single biggest complaint in this edition.

We know they're changing up CP and soup, which are the second and third biggest complaints about this edition.

Again, we'll see how they do in execution, but the fact that they've very clearly identified these as things they are working on should at least be cause for cautious optimism.

There need to be a downside to get the first turn in some way.

This situation where the first player obliterates the other army and gain a decisive advantage cannot go on.