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PenitentJake wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Shame there isn't a defensive Phase though.

Not formally, but using all my defensive strats to interfere with my enemy's shooting does feel like a defensive phase for me, as does counter attacking if I survive an enemy's charge, or denying my opponent's witchery.

When I want a stronger feeling of playing Defense then that, I play Blood Bowl, though I can only do that when someone's willing to lend me a team since I don't own one myself. I often have a spare kill team or two when they need one, so it tends to work out.

No, that isn't a defensive Phase and the domination of Alpha strike and only an except few factions actually having defensive or reactive tools via stratagem doesn't lend itself to something Like it.

It is what makes the igougo unbearable because it accentuates the really tilted balance in favour of offensive shooting capability and the really wierd balance in General in regards to Units.

An aa game has a kinda bigger allowance of unit power difference preciscly because it is aa and snowballing effects get Stalled out longer .

My point is , that regardless what Option gw Picks it's proabaly not Working because the core doesn't which makes igougo just a victim of circumstance, atleast partially that is .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And that does describe me too, because sometimes I feel like high energy AA. When I do, I play Kill Team, Apocalypse or Blackstone instead of playing 40k when I know it isn't what in the mood for and then whining about it on the Internet.

Agree with the whole post, but especially this bit at the end. If I found 40k dull or boring because of IGOUGO, why would I play 40k and complain about it, when I could put my models to use by playing Kill Team, Apocalypse, or just playing another game entirely?

Tbf after we tried kt rules (first for shooting and then for activation and morale ) it became a much better game, IF you avoid skew lists and play around 1000-1500 pts.

IGOUGO has its advantages, or at least, Alternating Activations has its own set of disadvantages that have to be worked around. I dare say its inferior for games without a lot of build restrictions that allow for a large diversity in activation values. Both systems require elements to minimize their weaknesses and the quality of a game is usually more about how well the developers control those issues than the core mechanic itself.

I got back into 40k with 8th after playing in the 90's with 2nd and a very brief run with 4th edition. 8th's rules, minus the bloat of the supplement/campaign books that I avoid (I am not a tournament type player), have been a breath of fresh air in streamlining the core game, including the IGOUGO system that has been part of the game since as long as I can recall. However, the main problem with 40k IMO is the lethality of weapons and units now, leading to the first turn player having often having an unfair advantage. I don't remember earlier editions I played being so lethal with armies able to delete much of an opponents army in the first turn.

I picked up the latest Kill Team rules and have enjoyed the more balanced approach in that game with alternating shooting actions. Then I took a chance on the new Apocalypse rules, and have been really impressed by how a proper alternating activations system can work with 40k models even at lower point games, especially with damage determined at the end of the round for both sides. I never played Epic 40k which the new Apocalypse's rules are based on, but now I know why so many liked that system.

I had hoped that 9th would incorporate more aspects of the new Apocalypse system, including alternating activations, damage calculated at the end of the turn, and simplified universal special rules. But if the lethality of 8th can be toned down, I will give 9th a chance. If the lethality is the same or worse in 9th as I fear, then I will likely focus on playing Apocalypse and Kill Team more with my models, as I notice my models stay on the table and get much more use in those games.

 Gnarlly wrote:
I got back into 40k with 8th after playing in the 90's with 2nd and a very brief run with 4th edition. 8th's rules, minus the bloat of the supplement/campaign books that I avoid (I am not a tournament type player), have been a breath of fresh air in streamlining the core game, including the IGOUGO system that has been part of the game since as long as I can recall. However, the main problem with 40k IMO is the lethality of weapons and units now, leading to the first turn player having often having an unfair advantage. I don't remember earlier editions I played being so lethal with armies able to delete much of an opponents army in the first turn.

I picked up the latest Kill Team rules and have enjoyed the more balanced approach in that game with alternating shooting actions. Then I took a chance on the new Apocalypse rules, and have been really impressed by how a proper alternating activations system can work with 40k models even at lower point games, especially with damage determined at the end of the round for both sides. I never played Epic 40k which the new Apocalypse's rules are based on, but now I know why so many liked that system.

I had hoped that 9th would incorporate more aspects of the new Apocalypse system, including alternating activations, damage calculated at the end of the turn, and simplified universal special rules. But if the lethality of 8th can be toned down, I will give 9th a chance. If the lethality is the same or worse in 9th as I fear, then I will likely focus on playing Apocalypse and Kill Team more with my models, as I notice my models stay on the table and get much more use in those games.

Happened a lot in 2nd with power gamers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gnarlly wrote:
I got back into 40k with 8th after playing in the 90's with 2nd and a very brief run with 4th edition. 8th's rules, minus the bloat of the supplement/campaign books that I avoid (I am not a tournament type player), have been a breath of fresh air in streamlining the core game, including the IGOUGO system that has been part of the game since as long as I can recall. However, the main problem with 40k IMO is the lethality of weapons and units now, leading to the first turn player having often having an unfair advantage. I don't remember earlier editions I played being so lethal with armies able to delete much of an opponents army in the first turn.

I picked up the latest Kill Team rules and have enjoyed the more balanced approach in that game with alternating shooting actions. Then I took a chance on the new Apocalypse rules, and have been really impressed by how a proper alternating activations system can work with 40k models even at lower point games, especially with damage determined at the end of the round for both sides. I never played Epic 40k which the new Apocalypse's rules are based on, but now I know why so many liked that system.

I had hoped that 9th would incorporate more aspects of the new Apocalypse system, including alternating activations, damage calculated at the end of the turn, and simplified universal special rules. But if the lethality of 8th can be toned down, I will give 9th a chance. If the lethality is the same or worse in 9th as I fear, then I will likely focus on playing Apocalypse and Kill Team more with my models, as I notice my models stay on the table and get much more use in those games.

Happened a lot in 2nd with power gamers.

True, though my friends and I at the time were not using a lot of characters or units like Space Wolf terminators with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers. There always seem to be some broken units in 40k.

 Gnarlly wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gnarlly wrote:
I got back into 40k with 8th after playing in the 90's with 2nd and a very brief run with 4th edition. 8th's rules, minus the bloat of the supplement/campaign books that I avoid (I am not a tournament type player), have been a breath of fresh air in streamlining the core game, including the IGOUGO system that has been part of the game since as long as I can recall. However, the main problem with 40k IMO is the lethality of weapons and units now, leading to the first turn player having often having an unfair advantage. I don't remember earlier editions I played being so lethal with armies able to delete much of an opponents army in the first turn.

I picked up the latest Kill Team rules and have enjoyed the more balanced approach in that game with alternating shooting actions. Then I took a chance on the new Apocalypse rules, and have been really impressed by how a proper alternating activations system can work with 40k models even at lower point games, especially with damage determined at the end of the round for both sides. I never played Epic 40k which the new Apocalypse's rules are based on, but now I know why so many liked that system.

I had hoped that 9th would incorporate more aspects of the new Apocalypse system, including alternating activations, damage calculated at the end of the turn, and simplified universal special rules. But if the lethality of 8th can be toned down, I will give 9th a chance. If the lethality is the same or worse in 9th as I fear, then I will likely focus on playing Apocalypse and Kill Team more with my models, as I notice my models stay on the table and get much more use in those games.

Happened a lot in 2nd with power gamers.

True, though my friends and I at the time were not using a lot of characters or units like Space Wolf terminators with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers. There always seem to be some broken units in 40k.

Those were tame compared to the noise marines and eldar.

Siegfriedfr wrote:
There need to be a downside to get the first turn in some way.

This situation where the first player obliterates the other army and gain a decisive advantage cannot go on.

I'm hoping that new cover rules + CP per turn rather than all at once will somewhat mitigate the lethality of first strike, rendering an additional fix unnecessary.

I think alternating sub phases is our best bet at this point. With a roll off at the beginning of each sub phase to see who gains initiative to avoid having players make overly aggressive/defensive maneuvers.

There are so many variations on alternating activations you can go with, it's not just a choice between IGO UGO and 'one unit each alternating'.

For example:

Apocalypse's detachment activation
randomised activation using token/card draw
Roll for activations
Roll to see how many units activate



I've been thinking about one that goes like this:

During the round each player rolls 1d3 to determine how many units they can activate at this step. Whoever rolls the LOWEST activates them first. Once both players have activated the total number of units, roll again and repeat until all units in both forces have been activated.

TC should quit. Post your armies on ebay.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fine. Sell your armies then and don't post here. Good bye.

If we got rid of all the people who claim [current edition] 40k is an awful game Dakka would lose like 70% of the people who post here.

It would be great. Those people contribute nothing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Feel free to check the poll results of whether Apocalypse is better at being a 40k game than 40k is.

How many more years of unlimited turn one command points to lose half your army before you start playing do you really want?

guess what the preview implies command points are something you get per turn now rather then all in a lump sum at once...

 Ishagu wrote:
TC should quit. Post your armies on ebay.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fine. Sell your armies then and don't post here. Good bye.

If we got rid of all the people who claim [current edition] 40k is an awful game Dakka would lose like 70% of the people who post here.

It would be great. Those people contribute nothing.

But your cheerleading and condescending attitude does?

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Feel free to check the poll results of whether Apocalypse is better at being a 40k game than 40k is.

How many more years of unlimited turn one command points to lose half your army before you start playing do you really want?

guess what the preview implies command points are something you get per turn now rather then all in a lump sum at once...

Or its both..... B.c there are pregame stratagems like relics/wl traits, etc...

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
TC should quit. Post your armies on ebay.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fine. Sell your armies then and don't post here. Good bye.

If we got rid of all the people who claim [current edition] 40k is an awful game Dakka would lose like 70% of the people who post here.

It would be great. Those people contribute nothing.

But your cheerleading and condescending attitude does?

I thought you said you were quitting and never playing again? Lol

Unlike you I love this hobby. I wouldn't spend my time discussing something which makes me miserable!

I never said that. Your usual terrible reading comprehension in play. I said I had played my last live game of 8th. Looks like i was 100% correct.

Martel732 wrote:
But your cheerleading and condescending attitude does?

A condescending attitude I can understand being an issue, but cheerleading? What's wrong with spreading a bit of optimism and enjoyment around?

I'd certainly prefer that over the kind of stuff we got in the OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said that. Your usual terrible reading comprehension in play. I said I had played my last live game of 8th. Looks like i was 100% correct.

So, if you're not playing, what are you doing? Painting? Collecting for the sake of it? There's nothing wrong with either of those two things, they're totally valid ways to enjoy the hobby - but if so, why get involved with discussions about the gaming side?

You don't see me jumping in on conversations about game systems I don't play.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
9th edition is already dead

Well, no. It's not. Objectively so. Demonstratively so. Maybe come out of your eternal darkness and see that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Feel free to check the poll results of whether Apocalypse is better at being a 40k game than 40k is.

Wait... there's a poll? A poll??? Nobody told me there was a poll.

This. Changes. Everything.

Or doesn't, because, y'know, who cares about a poll here at Dakka about Apoc, a game GW abandoned almost the second they released it.

It would be great. Those people contribute nothing.

buddy, you blindly praise everything GW does.

We contribute actual thoughtful, legitimate criticism of a deeply, deeply flawed game.

You're the guy who says if you don't like it move to another country when someone brings up a problem with the system.

As if criticism doesn't come from a place of love. If we didn't like or love this game, why would we waste our time on here in a forum discussing it, trying to make it better?

Tough love, is still love.

I don't want to sound like a total donkey-cave here, but your unwavering jingoistic optimism is frankly vomit inducing.

Martel732 wrote:
I never said that. Your usual terrible reading comprehension in play. I said I had played my last live game of 8th. Looks like i was 100% correct.

This hobby makes you miserable. You really should walk away.

You know why I win? Because I'm happy! I love the game, it's the best it's ever been and it's about to get better. I love collecting, the lore, the models, etc.
You just sulk and complain. I've never seen anything to the contrary from you.
I have even seen you try to talk people out of joining the hobby. It's a bit depressing, really.

@Brutus_Apex

Actually most of the time you contribute nothing but whinging on subjective issues. It's funny when the complaining starts before the new edition has even dropped lol

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But your cheerleading and condescending attitude does?

A condescending attitude I can understand being an issue, but cheerleading? What's wrong with spreading a bit of optimism and enjoyment around?

I'd certainly prefer that over the kind of stuff we got in the OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said that. Your usual terrible reading comprehension in play. I said I had played my last live game of 8th. Looks like i was 100% correct.

So, if you're not playing, what are you doing? Painting? Collecting for the sake of it? There's nothing wrong with either of those two things, they're totally valid ways to enjoy the hobby - but if so, why get involved with discussions about the gaming side?

You don't see me jumping in on conversations about game systems I don't play.

Board game simulator? LIVE game. LIVE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said that. Your usual terrible reading comprehension in play. I said I had played my last live game of 8th. Looks like i was 100% correct.

This hobby makes you miserable. You really should walk away.

You know why I win? Because I'm happy! I love the game, it's the best it's ever been and it's about to get better. I love collecting, the lore, the models, etc.
You just sulk and complain. I've never seen anything to the contrary from you.
I have even seen you try to talk people out of joining the hobby. It's a bit depressing, really.

@Brutus_Apex

Actually most of the time you contribute nothing but whinging on subjective issues. It's funny when the complaining starts before the new edition has even dropped lol

If they don't remove tripoint, I'll be hard pressed to continue playing for sure.

Actually most of the time you contribute nothing but whinging on subjective issues

Actually, most of the time you contribute nothing except to be a troll to people trying to better the game.

like this for instance. You know I'm right, and you have nothing to say for yourself.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It would be great. Those people contribute nothing.

buddy, you blindly praise everything GW does.

We contribute actual thoughtful, legitimate criticism of a deeply, deeply flawed game.

You're the guy who says if you don't like it move to another country when someone brings up a problem with the system.

As if criticism doesn't come from a place of love. If we didn't like or love this game, why would we waste our time on here in a forum discussing it, trying to make it better?

Tough love, is still love.

I don't want to sound like a total donkey-cave here, but your unwavering jingoistic optimism is frankly vomit inducing.

This is why the cheerleading is bad.

I enjoy the game and most of my biggest concerns are being addressed with the new edition. Why would I be critical until I've properly seen all it has to offer?

It's funny how everything I want seems to happen. Must be the power of optimism at play....

 Ishagu wrote:
I enjoy the game and most of my biggest concerns are being addressed with the new edition. Why would I be critical until I've properly seen all it has to offer?

It's funny how everything I want seems to happen. Must be the power of optimism at play....

Or you know ahead of time.

 Manchu wrote:
OP is being hyperbolic, clearly.

No, he's not. This started in the thread in N&R.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
... (didn't the whiteboard say something about no dice and coins?)...

That was a joke.

honestly I find cheerleading better then the constant "GW SUCKS! 40K SUCKS!" I mean.. I understand why someone like Ishagu is here, some people whom do nothing but say how aweful 40k's game system is, how aeful the fluff is, how aweful the factions are, there's a point when it's clear "you like NOTHING about 40k, so why are you here?"

honestly I find cheerleading better then the constant "GW SUCKS! 40K SUCKS!" I mean.. I understand why someone like Ishagu is here, some people whom do nothing but say how aweful 40k's game system is, how aeful the fluff is, how aweful the factions are, there's a point when it's clear "you like NOTHING about 40k, so why are you here?"

Yeah, I get that. It can be a total drag too.

I always try to let GW know when they've done a good job.

I'm loving the new Necrons, some of the new marines (finally got some knightly models) and the Sisters line was probably one of the best ever released.

I like a lot of the stories. Some are bad, whatever.

Truthfully, the game leaves a lot to be desired. It pretty much always has. And I'm not even a competitive player anymore. I like campaigns and fluffy armies. But some of the design flaws are too much to handle sometimes.

Brutus_Apex wrote:buddy, you blindly praise everything GW does.

Ishagu, perhaps. But me?

We contribute actual thoughtful, legitimate criticism of a deeply, deeply flawed game.

Some people. Not all. Not naming any names, but there's people who provide nothing constructive beyond "this game sucks, GW suck, you're bad if you enjoy this broken garbage".

There's a balance between "everything is awesome" and "everything sucks", but if I had to pick, I'm going to choose the one that fills me with at least a shred of positivity.

You're the guy who says if you don't like it move to another country when someone brings up a problem with the system.

This is a toy soldier board game. Not real life geopolitics with all the implications that some lives are worth more or less than others.

As if criticism doesn't come from a place of love. If we didn't like or love this game, why would we waste our time on here in a forum discussing it, trying to make it better?

Honestly, your guess is a good as mine, but I'm willing to bet all my armies that there's people who don't love the game, and complain because that's all they've got left to let them feel involved.

Tough love, is still love.

And shouting into an echo chamber is still not getting your voice heard.

I don't want to sound like a total donkey-cave here, but your unwavering jingoistic optimism is frankly vomit inducing.

I don't want to sound like a total donkey-cave, but some people unwavering hatred of all things GW is just depressing to see.

See, it swings both ways!

Martel732 wrote:Board game simulator? LIVE game. LIVE.

What's the difference between simulated 40k and live 40k? What's the miraculous digital panacea that somehow warms the cockles of your heart?

Martel732 wrote:This is why the cheerleading is bad.

I didn't see a single reason in there why cheerleading was bad. Or, at the very least, why it was any worse than endless negativity.