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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Ok, then explain why none of this

Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

Applies to csm. I wait with baited breath.

I was speaking in the sense that they should have made this the standard marine stat line. They didn't. They went the primaris route. So this does kind of suck for CSM. I can empathize. I have 2 CSM armies myself - BL and TS...The solution can not be to give all chaos bodies 2 wounds too - then we are back to square 1. CSM would just be primaris plus 1 with every unique feature on cult marines, ect. You do make a good point though...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
In no way should a standard marine be this much tougher than say an Ork or genestealer, hell primaris make my Plague Marines look like chumps. 2W basic infantry is bad design period.

"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

If we were going the basic infantry route for marines. Dropping a standard marine down to 9 or 10 points for what it does on the table would have been the way to go about doing that.

They are basic infantry for their faction game-wise. Guardsman compared to everything out there in the galaxy is sub-basic but it's what IG has to work with. And no a space marine is not much tougher than an Ork, were do people get this idea from. Orks can survive bolters to the head, how durable do you think some gene-enhanced human is exactly to be twice as tough as that? I'm not whining either, I have more wins than losses against SM, although that might be down to my opponents. But I do take issue with one faction having 2W basic infantry, it breaks the game.

"Our thing is being way better than everyone else at literally everything" is not a good identity for a major faction in a multiplayer game. It's bad enough for custodes, but they're a special case. There is a reason there are basically no examples of "this faction's thing is being way better at everything, and has less guys to compensate" ever working in a competitive game. It's just bad game design. It doesn't work.

For 30+ years, GW understood this, which is why space marines had a better stat line than any other baseline troops, but not radically so. Space marines were still troops like everybody else's troops. Very good, disciplined, tough ones with excellent armor and better weapons...but still troops like everybody else's troops.

The move to 2W space marines - with all the offensive power creep that also required to make a 2W model viable - broke the basic paradigm the game has been built on for its entire history. It's why we ended up with 6-model aggressor squads firing 140 shots, and also why we now have 4W 6A space marine bikers.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

First Off chaos.
Secondly:i don't want primaris, i just wonder wtf VOLKITE HERESY TECH MAKES ON CHILDREN AGEWISE that allready have everything +1.
thirdly: cultmarines suck because gw said so, beeing just csm (which are Bad allready) but more expensive and therefore worse. Daemonengines have as Of yet never had an Edition where they actually worked . And cultist have just been taken behind the shed because feth light infantry and if you dare bring up fw R&H i swear i will dreadsock someone.

You really think noise marines and berserkers suck?

Yes both do , welcome to chaos, infact they suck so Hard Like the Rest Of These "veterans", that you need multiple hq, subfaction traits/stratagems and Orders and psy shouted at them to the point your average 2-3 batt Reserve of cp has Run dry by Turn 3 mid.

Noise marines can be pretty good in the right list, but it has to be the right list. They are kinda the polar opposite of intercessors that are just good all the time no matter what.

I'd give cult marines 3W since they are crazy power infused badasses.

I'd give banshees the ability to fight three times each fight phase and -2 to be hit in melee since in the lore they move so fast humans can't even react to them.

This could be fun. We can describe how we'd "Primaris" all the other game factions to make them comparable again.

They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

Because GOD forbid something survives devastor and tac doctrine.....

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!

I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Never understood this line of thinking...CSM have all kinds of stuff marines dont have. Like...Cult marines - daemon engines - daemons - cultists. Primaris should be imperial specific because they are literally an imperial attempt to strengthen humanities grip on their empire which is slowly slipping away. Leave primaris envy at the door. Embrace the things that make your army unique. Choas should not have everything loyalist space marines do.

Ok, then explain why none of this

Xenomancers wrote:"Basic infantry"
Well a good thing they aren't basic infantry.

A Gaurdsmen is a basic infantry. You take a Gaurdsmen. You tripple it's overall mass and give it a mechanical powered suit and a rapid fire grenade launcher and mutiple bionic augments. Essentially it is a machine at that point. Much stronger than an ork. As fast as an eldar. As tough as a necron. The only way to model this is to make them more expensive but as good or better at all the jobs these other troops do. They finally got this right. Stop whining about it and bring as much plasma and weapons with -AP as you can to deal with it. WAIT. That has been the go to stratagey in every freaking addition and as a result marines have ALWAYS sucked because all their stats can be ignored. 2 W is the only way to make these guys even remotely more durable than multiples of chaff units.

Applies to csm. I wait with baited breath.

I was speaking in the sense that they should have made this the standard marine stat line. They didn't. They went the primaris route. So this does kind of suck for CSM. I can empathize. I have 2 CSM armies myself - BL and TS...The solution can not be to give all chaos bodies 2 wounds too - then we are back to square 1. CSM would just be primaris plus 1 with every unique feature on cult marines, ect. You do make a good point though...

"Primaris plus 1"? How? Without doctrines, super doctrines, and legion traits that affect our entire army? No, csm don't need another wound, they need units that are good without stacking buffs on them. Start with making chosen a troops choice for all the legions. Then start addressing legion traits and our other units. 2 wound troops were a bad idea.

No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!

I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?

How about just a 4++ dodge?

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!

I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?

How about just a 4++ dodge?

It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!

I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?

How about just a 4++ dodge?

It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?

It wouldn't make Banshees broken or anything.

Invul for a squishy melee unit only in melee which makes Sense.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Invul for a squishy melee unit only in melee which makes Sense.

Yes, to me or you, but Martel hates invuls. I was just surprised.

Or you could make it so a role of 1-3 always fails to hit in melee.

Wyches already have 4++ in the Fight phase.

 harlokin wrote:
Wyches already have 4++ in the Fight phase.

Which makes the whole thing even sadder when the supposed specialist faction which supposedly fields some of the best in their role just can't compete against a bloody Generalist foottroop .

Martel732 wrote:
I'd give cult marines 3W since they are crazy power infused badasses.

So true.
Though I also agree that all marines should have been 2wounds with the release of 8th, that restartes should have been simply new marine models with marine weaponry but bigger, true scale.
But instead now we have meltarifles and volkite Cawl spitters. Ick. Cawl is heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Invul for a squishy melee unit only in melee which makes Sense.

Yes, to me or you, but Martel hates invuls. I was just surprised.

Actually the 4++ dodge is an elegant solution. But comparative weapon skill and initiative values can do similar work or synergize with an always on -1 to hit... something like that.

There's nothing inherently wrong with 2w troops, the game just didn't update enough profiles with 8th to keep up. Rubrics have had two wounds and been troops for years. Tyranid warriors have three and have been troops for a minute, now, and the game has survived. Why have a wound stat at all if you aren't going to use it? I'm all for moving to an Apocalypse style game and consolidating stats if we want hundreds of models fighting it out, but if we're going to play an oversized skirmish game, shouldn't we take the granularity that offers?

Marines are "supposed" to be durable jacks of all trades. A basic intercessor (which would ideally be the marine baseline) seems like a pretty good representation of that when compared to a guardsman or other chaff unit. Good armor, can take a couple of lasgun hits and keep chugging, a gun that makes a mess of those same chaff units but can't really threaten a tank, fights like he remembered to bring those combat blades they're always on about, etc.. The problem isn't in the base stats, it's in all the extras that have been piled on top. I'm sure we can all remember the early days of 8th where they were durable troops that weren't setting the world on fire, so got ignored for battalion filling min scouts to power the real workhorses.

Compounding this, a lot of other units just got left behind in the 8th ed shuffle. Aspect warriors should obviously be better at their jobs than a random marine, but never tougher (in T/W; dodging via a penalty to hit, save, referencing an additional stat that reflects reflexes, etc. makes sense) or as flexible. Genestealers should be absolute blenders if they make it to you, but not hard to gun down if they're out in the open. Tanks should be able to shrug off more damage than a single squad of dudes (while anti-tank weapons should be doing more damage to compensate, which would give room for distinction between weapon types). Guardsmen should be cheap as chips and get things done by weight of numbers and the big guns they're standing in front of. Tau get the good guns, but not the durability. Necrons should be tougher and more deadly, but less numerous and slow when footslogging. There are a ton of examples, GW was just too conservative with what they were willing to change when they had the chance.

Crimson wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
are we okay with the fact that the numarine bikes are literally 2 khorneberzerkers strapped to a bike with double the wounds and more dakka then heavy bolters?

Not to mention Volkite, you know that heresy stuff that supposedly constantly get's carried around by you know, legionaires

I am okay with marines getting this, but I totally agree CSM players being salty. CSM should have similar stuff too. Just give the primaris statline to all marines, including the CSM.

Absolutely agreed. I'd honestly love for regular Marines (of all stripes) to get that 2W goodness.

For everyone saying "you're saying Marines are tougher than Orks, Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers" - yes, I am.

Orks aren't as tough as Marines.
Necrons are tough in that they keep reanimating, not that they're innately as durable.
Aspect Warriors are fast and skilled, not tough.
Genestealers get mowed down in bolter fire. Marines take considerably more.

In nearly every prior edition I've played, my basic Marines did not feel elite. They felt like mooks guarding a single useful weapon. A bolter marine felt less useful than guardsmen did, because at least I knew to expect little from guardsmen - whereas a goddamn Space Marine with a thrice blessed bolter just went down like a chump, all to protect the one squad member who actually meant a damn. And with Primaris actually making a difference, going up to two Wounds, and with single Marines actually being a tangible threat, I enjoyed them all the more.

Is that to say nothing else should be brought up to that level? No. I would be massively in favour of Marines seeing a size reduction in their armies, where 1500 point armies looked more like 1000 point ones. I'd be in favour of Eldar Aspect Warriors being more powerful (and more expensive on a similar level). I'd be in favour of Chaos getting those same benefits Marines do, and also feeling tanky as hell.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For everyone saying "you're saying Marines are tougher than Orks, Necrons, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers" - yes, I am.

Orks aren't as tough as Marines.
Necrons are tough in that they keep reanimating, not that they're innately as durable.
Aspect Warriors are fast and skilled, not tough.
Genestealers get mowed down in bolter fire. Marines take considerably more.

Imagine for a moment, that Marines had better armor than all of those examples. . .
Oh. . . They do!

And Necron Warriors should be as durable as Marines, and have RP on top of that, but that's another discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In nearly every prior edition I've played, my basic Marines did not feel elite.

Now also, imagine, for a moment, that instead of playing marines, you were playing Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions etc, against Primaris under the current paradigm. How elite do your elite units feel?

I don't think it's even right to say space marines are stronger or tougher than orks. Space marines are more durable because they have much better armor, but that's really it. Orks are extremely durable on a physical level. They were literally created by far, far, far more powerful genetic scientists than Cawl could ever dream to be, specifically for their strength and toughness.

The people talking about space marine skill, strength, toughness etc tend to conveniently forget that according to 40k lore, every major race was created by beings vastly better at manipulating genes than the Imperium could hope to be in a million years.

Space marines are superior to normal humans, but that doesn't mean they're superior to normal xenos at the specific purposes those xenos were created for.

This is yet another reason that Primaris are stupid.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think it's even right to say space marines are stronger or tougher than orks. Space marines are more durable because they have much better armor, but that's really it. Orks are extremely durable on a physical level. They were literally created by far, far, far more powerful genetic scientists than Cawl could ever dream to be, specifically for their strength and toughness.

The people talking about space marine skill, strength, toughness etc tend to conveniently forget that according to 40k lore, every major race was created by beings vastly better at manipulating genes than the Imperium could hope to be in a million years.

Space marines are superior to normal humans, but that doesn't mean they're superior to normal xenos at the specific purposes those xenos were created for.

This is yet another reason that Primaris are stupid.

I agree with you but for some reason Primaris defenders really do think that yes a regular Space Marine is both faster and more skillful than an Eldar, tougher than an Ork/Necron and yes them having 2 wounds for a regular dude when no one else gets this somehow makes sense. Unfortunately it seems GW agrees, so everyone else's elites can feel like trash but marine players get their power fantasy. I wasn't even all that salty before, but really some Primaris biker gets more attacks than my Warboss? That's just a joke on so many levels.

They don't have to give CSM 2 wounds each.

Havocs on the other hand should have been 2 wounds each because look at them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they weren't. Keeping everything at one wound is a mistake Just like not make T12 and S16 a thing is a mistake. They keep adding units but don't stretch the stats to differentiate them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They capping to hit penalties at -1.

They have never had any kind of representation of their speed except the fleet rule.

And they never had marines with 2W until they did, either. That's the point. We're going to Primaris every faction, because Primaris are cool and that means it would be cool if everyone got Primarised. More wounds, more dice, more attacks, more awesome!

I was thinking banshees can get a special -2 to hit because <reasons> just like primaris have 2W when nobody else does because <reasons>, but if it makes you happier, we could just give them a rule that only ever allows them to be hit in combat on 6s instead?

How about just a 4++ dodge?

It was for basic troops. And did you just advocate a unit getting a 4++ invul?

Yeah, I think its appropriate in this context. Maybe reduce it to 6++ vs shooting.

My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.

From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?

Tygre wrote:
My go to example is:
If a bolter shell explodes in a guardsmans shoulder, well he's dead and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a marines shoulder, well he loses his arm and is out of the combat.
If a bolter shell explodes in a orks shoulder, well he pick it up with his other arm and beat you to death with it.

From what we have been told of SM physiology; they have strong bones and scab wounds quickly. Does that warrant extra Toughness and another wound from human standard?

Yes, it does. Orks should probably have 2W and FNP on top. The game needs to stretch the stats so we can differentiate units properly.