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So here's hoping the shift that balance in other ways.

Support their assault by charging your Assault Intercessors at the same time, and give everything buffs from the aura abilities of your Primaris Lieutenant and Bladeguard Ancient.

In other news they posted a bunch of PL lists. The CSM is almost the same points as before - this is like 460 now and ~440 under this PL.



The marines are 500 points. I presume the Assault Intercessors will be 100. The LT we'll keep at 65, Ancient at 70, and Vets like Vitrix @ 35 for 105. That puts 3 bikes @ 160, which is likely too high so those other units will come up. It seems odd that CSM seems to be staying the same and marines take a good hit. Am I missing something?

It's because they aren't fixing any of our traits or units. They've basically decided that csm are cheaper, inferior, Bargain Basement Marines.

Also, auras need to go away. Thankfully, the Eighth Legion has a stratagem for that.

If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers

The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's because they aren't fixing any of our traits or units. They've basically decided that csm are cheaper, inferior, Bargain Basement Marines.

Also, auras need to go away. Thankfully, the Eighth Legion has a stratagem for that.

Yea, though is it scaled properly with Primaris now? It may be. But then Cultists are 6 -- are they benefiting from something else greatly? Still too much missing from the big picture here.

 addnid wrote:
If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers

Hmm, I actually disagree.

The greatest strenght of the CM aura was to mitigate the hit penalties.

Spoletta wrote:
The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.

So they could be roughly the same depending on the flex in PL from upgrades of which they took quite a few.

Spoletta wrote:The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.

So they could be roughly the same depending on the flex in PL from upgrades of which they took quite a few.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the approach is to hike points on units and armies currently considered good, and leave all the under-performers alone.

Spoletta wrote:

 addnid wrote:
If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers

Hmm, I actually disagree.

The greatest strenght of the CM aura was to mitigate the hit penalties.

Yes it's good that they have that, it would be a shame if the marines weren't practically auto hitting with just their obnoxious rerolls.

 catbarf wrote:

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the approach is to hike points on units and armies currently considered good, and leave all the under-performers alone.

Which still begs the question - why Cultists? It feels weird.

Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

 harlokin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

I'm curious if that will be the case in the new CP set up. A Patrol is 2 CP, so it seems detachments won't be terribly cheap.

 harlokin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

And RAW, they are better at buffing than Dante or Azrael. Which is why we use the RAI for those models.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

I'm curious if that will be the case in the new CP set up. A Patrol is 2 CP, so it seems detachments won't be terribly cheap.

You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.

I agree, it's hard to make reasonable judgements without the wider CP context.

 harlokin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.

It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

When it could double to 4 CP and probably still be an auto take, you got a problem, yeah.

If you have to pay 300 points and a lord of war detachment for it, fine.

Martel732 wrote:


You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.

But then your list building suffers in some respect. Most marine armies run on way more than 3 HQs and a Brigade forces them into other units they may not want.

Reroll 1s are fine, it's full rerolls that are problematic, and in particular the ridiculous full reroll 6" bubble that the chapter master trait gives.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.

But then your list building suffers in some respect. Most marine armies run on way more than 3 HQs and a Brigade forces them into other units they may not want.

I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.

GW has stated that all models points cost will increase in 9th, but even a 1 point increase is an increase.

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.

Correction: I forgot to add the second Obliterator to the list. CSM List is currently 28 PL and 458 points.

More interesting is that the Genestealer Cult list is currently PL 26 versus the 22 shown, and clocks in at 479 points. If it is only 22 PL in 9th, that indicates a points value closer to 430-450 points. If the value of models goes up, the value of some upgrades may be going down in 9th, at least for this list.

Very, very interesting.

Uhhuh this was non-news to begin with.

Martel732 wrote:


I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.

Coverage matters. Chapter master, LT, and one other HQ does not cover a ton with more mobile missions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.

Coverage matters. Chapter master, LT, and one other HQ does not cover a ton with more mobile missions.

But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.

 alextroy wrote:

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.

Hmm... The CSM list has little upgrade flex in PL, so --

MoP - 88
CSM - 55 + 4 + 7
Oblits - 95 + 95
VC - 115

459 total. 22 PL is 440. So, theoretically the CSM could go up 1 point each, but their PL stays.

If MoP is 90ish then he's 5 PL. Oblits could be 100 and still 5 PL. VC will be above 100, so 6 PL. That leaves just 1 PL for the CSM.

I'm so confused. They could be rounding PL down now, too?

Even with a nerf to Chapter Master there are a good number of units in the Marine dex that are far, far too cheap currently. Even without taking into account CM or any stratagems and chapter tactics, these units are costed so low that they are a massive problem. But you add those things in and they become ridiculous.

Assault Centurions are so absurd that they're easily worth their points even if you were to ignore the drills and never get them into CC.

Martel732 wrote:


But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.

It matters. People were mixing and matching a ton. Chappies were abundant as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.

It matters. People were mixing and matching a ton. Chappies were abundant as well.

I agree it matters. Just not compared to the full reroll aura,.

This is interesting.

I would assume that they're just explicitly codifying two choices for 'you have started your turn in melee': Fall Back, or stay where you are and shoot Pistols.

 catbarf wrote:
I would assume that they're just explicitly codifying two choices for 'you have started your turn in melee': Fall Back, or stay where you are and shoot Pistols.

Seems like a weird term for that. Almost feel like its a +1 to hit for not moving sort of thing.


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Also that blurb kills the idea of Fallback moving to end of Shooting (not that it was likely anyway).