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2020/06/27 04:17:27
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Is that the guy that said that GK in 8th ed are not only going to be good, but actualy too good ?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/06/27 04:25:24
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Karol wrote: Is that the guy that said that GK in 8th ed are not only going to be good, but actualy too good ?
Don't recall that one, but Reece did predict the Stompa to be OP.
I don't trust Reece to predict meta, but how long it takes to play a game? Especially when the TTT guys are also saying the same thing? I can believe it.
2020/06/27 06:01:17
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
But doesn't that just skew the game in horde favour? The more elite armies may not have the fire power to deal with someone playing with a 40-50 9 pts models, at the same time 40-50 bolters kill those 20+ pts models same fast as they did in larger games. 500pts for an elite army , is either one good squads or two squads of troops with a really bad HQ to lead them. Also armies that are build around the idea of cycling 5-6 abilities on 3-4 characters and 4-5 units are not going to work at all. Those 500pts games don't sound very fun.
In kill team, hordes happen but they are not ubiquitous. Hordes are great for board control, but the disadvantage to hordes is that horde units tend to perform poorly on an individual level, and so it's easy to lose an important fight. So Kill team list building works out to be finding a balance between number of bodies and quality of units, with certain factions skewing one way or another. I think that can translate to 40k, but it comes down to how the missions are written. Missions should give advantages to both play styles, and The example mission has a good example of this kind of trade off. In the mission elite/strong forces will try to take the objective in enemy territory for the bonus points, and horde armies will try to control three objective to max their points. The whole thing will hang on whether or not the horde can get three, if the elites can stop them, it will be 15 to 10 in their favor, if not it will be 10 to 15 to the horde. Which is to say there are effective strategies for playing as both hordes and elites, or any mix between. Add in secondaries and it becomes more about making the right decisions than the specifics of your army. That's certainly been my experience at least, every game of KT I've played and lost it's been pretty easy for me to pick out the mistake I made.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
2020/06/27 06:21:43
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
At 500 points every list is going to be specialized, you might have a nidzilla list that's mostly monsters, or some kind of pox walker list that has a ton of models. I think making a TAC list will be super hard, because your not going to have the tools to do that at 500 points. So every list will have things they are good at, and things they can't do. So battles will come down to two factors, does your specialty counter their specialty, and who plays the mission better. Take a look at the example mission, aside from whatever secondaries you chose, there are no VPs for killing, and there are not going to be 3 secondaries around eliminating opponents. The Big stompy ad mech list mentioned earlier in the thread could kill opponents just fine, but will have a hard time completing objectives. If you can't get enough bodies on objectives to take them and/or keep your opponents from circle capping them, that mission is going to be a nightmare.
If they get the missions right, list built to score will handily out do list built around wiping out your opponent. You see this in kill team, were custodes are immortal killing machines, but often get rolled by a guant slapping the close door button while his broodmates go and squat on objectives. If all your list does is eliminate units, you'll table your opponent by turn 4, and then lose on points anyway. The focus on mission over murder is one of the (possibly few) things Kill team did right, it's resulted in a highly dynamic meta even in a system where there is a lot of variability in the relative strength of the factions. Like someone took first in a GT with the gellarpox infected, who are arguably the weakest faction in kill team. It would have been like winning a major with pre PA dark angels.
Will it actually work, who knows. I'm realistic enough to know that people will be net listing five minutes after this gets popular, and then the question will be is the mission design good enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. With GWs goal in mind, don't judge the style of play just by the list that can be built, because the missions will be at least as important as the list.
But doesn't that just skew the game in horde favour? The more elite armies may not have the fire power to deal with someone playing with a 40-50 9 pts models, at the same time 40-50 bolters kill those 20+ pts models same fast as they did in larger games. 500pts for an elite army , is either one good squads or two squads of troops with a really bad HQ to lead them. Also armies that are build around the idea of cycling 5-6 abilities on 3-4 characters and 4-5 units are not going to work at all. Those 500pts games don't sound very fun.
Tycho wrote: I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).
And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).
Did they say which type of the game? Because if the use politicians or corpo speak, then something like w40k games are going to be faster, Can mean something like, if you pay 500pts crusad against the best of best friends and never have any rule problems or disagreements about rules or terrain the game is going to take less time to play then a 2000pts match played 8th ed game.
How exactly do you plan to having dispute over terrain in 9th? Honestly curious.
You assign the keywords at the start of the game and then there is no more possible interpretation.
2020/06/27 09:30:54
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Well store is closed, So there ain't going to be any disputes over terrain.
But in general my expiriance is that if two players get their own way, and a third party no matter of what kind, decides what the terrain is pre game for them, there are going to be disputes over everything 10 out of 10 times.
That is why stuff like, every terrain with a base is area terrain, every terrain without base is not. Windows and doors on first floor don't count for drawin LoS were enforced here.
I really would not want to see people argue, if this forest is dense enough to count dense, but that other bigger one, who is in their deployment and would be nice firebase, is not dense, but heavy and fortified. Stuff like that adds to time wasted before the actual game, and requires you to be both good at social stuff, and liked in general. If you don't have friends people will always say no to you, because doing so brings zero repercusions, while someone who is the store owners close friend could just make it so you are soft baned from renting table time.
The less interaction between people is needed to solve any rules problems and the less space for interpretation the better for the game. It is like sports, where you know what you can do and what you can't do, and you don't need a 2 hour argument with your opponent what is okey and what isn't every game.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2020/06/27 12:14:24
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
At 500 points every list is going to be specialized, you might have a nidzilla list that's mostly monsters, or some kind of pox walker list that has a ton of models. I think making a TAC list will be super hard, because your not going to have the tools to do that at 500 points. So every list will have things they are good at, and things they can't do. So battles will come down to two factors, does your specialty counter their specialty, and who plays the mission better. Take a look at the example mission, aside from whatever secondaries you chose, there are no VPs for killing, and there are not going to be 3 secondaries around eliminating opponents. The Big stompy ad mech list mentioned earlier in the thread could kill opponents just fine, but will have a hard time completing objectives. If you can't get enough bodies on objectives to take them and/or keep your opponents from circle capping them, that mission is going to be a nightmare.
If they get the missions right, list built to score will handily out do list built around wiping out your opponent. You see this in kill team, were custodes are immortal killing machines, but often get rolled by a guant slapping the close door button while his broodmates go and squat on objectives. If all your list does is eliminate units, you'll table your opponent by turn 4, and then lose on points anyway. The focus on mission over murder is one of the (possibly few) things Kill team did right, it's resulted in a highly dynamic meta even in a system where there is a lot of variability in the relative strength of the factions. Like someone took first in a GT with the gellarpox infected, who are arguably the weakest faction in kill team. It would have been like winning a major with pre PA dark angels.
Will it actually work, who knows. I'm realistic enough to know that people will be net listing five minutes after this gets popular, and then the question will be is the mission design good enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. With GWs goal in mind, don't judge the style of play just by the list that can be built, because the missions will be at least as important as the list.
But doesn't that just skew the game in horde favour? The more elite armies may not have the fire power to deal with someone playing with a 40-50 9 pts models, at the same time 40-50 bolters kill those 20+ pts models same fast as they did in larger games. 500pts for an elite army , is either one good squads or two squads of troops with a really bad HQ to lead them. Also armies that are build around the idea of cycling 5-6 abilities on 3-4 characters and 4-5 units are not going to work at all. Those 500pts games don't sound very fun.
Tycho wrote: I've been saying this for a while now. GW is actually doubling down on a lot of the mechanics that are dragging out game length and causing problems. Welcome to 9th. It will take longer per game, and be significantly more complex, while also keeping a lot of the actual problems from 8th (and, from what we've seen, expanding on them).
And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).
Did they say which type of the game? Because if the use politicians or corpo speak, then something like w40k games are going to be faster, Can mean something like, if you pay 500pts crusad against the best of best friends and never have any rule problems or disagreements about rules or terrain the game is going to take less time to play then a 2000pts match played 8th ed game.
How exactly do you plan to having dispute over terrain in 9th? Honestly curious.
You assign the keywords at the start of the game and then there is no more possible interpretation.
That depends on how you assign the keywords. If you're just picking them then that will break down quick. If there's an actual system in the rules for it it won't be that big of a deal.
2020/06/27 12:43:16
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2020/06/27 13:23:26
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
Just some people wishing for it to be that way with no hint that it would be changing, like the people who got mad that 9th wasn’t alternating activations.
Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!
2020/06/27 13:23:31
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
Just a hope really since it's been one of the most common gripes (in regard to SM Chapter Masters). basically, what's the point of rolling so many dice if they are all mostly going to hit anyway.
However, we still haven't seen the one big change that has been thrown around, I still predict it will be with auras. I'm now thinking that maybe it's something you have to activate in the Command Phase and possibly require a test (like litanies). If an aura goes off on a 3+ for example, a Chapter Master could make that happen on a 2+ instead (reroll 1s to hit that is).
Who knows, I just want to see the "castle" reroll everything go away. Auras are definitely still around, but we haven't seen in what form and we also haven't seen what is needed in the "Command" phase. For it to become an actual phase, I expect significant changes.
2020/06/27 13:27:37
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
Just some people wishing for it to be that way with no hint that it would be changing, like the people who got mad that 9th wasn’t alternating activations.
My uneducated hope is that reroll auras would be a number of units based on the unit similar to the new necron unit that applies its buff in the command phase. A CM could buff 3. A captain/lt could do 1.
But if marines take the most point increases then it may well be fine.
2020/06/27 13:28:33
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
Just a hope really since it's been one of the most common gripes (in regard to SM Chapter Masters). basically, what's the point of rolling so many dice if they are all mostly going to hit anyway.
However, we still haven't seen the one big change that has been thrown around, I still predict it will be with auras. I'm now thinking that maybe it's something you have to activate in the Command Phase and possibly require a test (like litanies). If an aura goes off on a 3+ for example, a Chapter Master could make that happen on a 2+ instead (reroll 1s to hit that is).
Who knows, I just want to see the "castle" reroll everything go away. Auras are definitely still around, but we haven't seen in what form and we also haven't seen what is needed in the "Command" phase. For it to become an actual phase, I expect significant changes.
We will see but I highly doubt that they are doing that. GW claims they wrote the new SM dex with 9th in mind so they probably would have just made the CM reroll aura activate like a chaplain’s abilities then. My guess is the earliest we would see the change would be whenever the new SM codex drops(with will likely be early in the edition but could be a month or more in), but I still don’t think they will change it to a roll like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 13:29:24
Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!
2020/06/27 13:40:52
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).
These same people said that exact same thing about 8th. Word. For. Word. Take from that what you will ....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 13:41:11
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/06/27 15:24:32
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
And yet GW and everyone involved in the playtesting have said the game will be shorter on average (once you get used to it of course).
These same people said that exact same thing about 8th. Word. For. Word. Take from that what you will ....
Yeah, but as I've pointed out by name, it's not just Reece who has said it this time. We've been hearing from a wider playtesting group this time, and they are on the same page on this.
2020/06/27 16:27:36
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
yukishiro1 wrote: Well that's what I mean, it is PR spin no matter what they say it is. Unless they place much stricter limits on what you can take at 500 points than the patrol detachment inherently contains, balanced games will not be possible.
At 500 points every list is going to be specialized, you might have a nidzilla list that's mostly monsters, or some kind of pox walker list that has a ton of models. I think making a TAC list will be super hard, because your not going to have the tools to do that at 500 points. So every list will have things they are good at, and things they can't do. So battles will come down to two factors, does your specialty counter their specialty, and who plays the mission better. Take a look at the example mission, aside from whatever secondaries you chose, there are no VPs for killing, and there are not going to be 3 secondaries around eliminating opponents. The Big stompy ad mech list mentioned earlier in the thread could kill opponents just fine, but will have a hard time completing objectives. If you can't get enough bodies on objectives to take them and/or keep your opponents from circle capping them, that mission is going to be a nightmare.
Well sure. I didn't say that list was unbeatable, just that lots of lists won't be able to beat it. None of the lists that they gave examples of would stand a chance - they'd get tabled by T3, and don't even have that many more bodies to hold objectives to build up a lead before that. On the other hand, you might be able to come up with some sort of horde list that could beat it (though the bomber makes that hard).
My point wasn't that there'll be one unbeatable list at 500 points, just that lists will be so skewed that the results will often be predetermined by comparing your two lists. A TAC list doesn't work at 500 points; it just ends up being a Take No Actual Comers list because people will skew to one side or the other.
It'll also be skewed by other stuff like skyweavers or kraken stealers that can easily hit any point on the board on T1, which once again will simply beat some lists T1 with nothing you can do about it, at least if they go first.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/27 16:30:38
2020/06/27 16:43:33
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Yeah, but as I've pointed out by name, it's not just Reece who has said it this time. We've been hearing from a wider playtesting group this time, and they are on the same page on this.
Maybe. But it was "not just Reese" last time either. I am with anyone saying anything he says should be taken with a heap of salt. 8th was billed as both the "most play tested edition ever" AND "the fastest edition ever". So them saying "No really! Seriously! It IS faster this time guys! And we MEAN it! SOOOOO Many play testers!", when, during the whole of 8th, play testers failed to realize how slow the core mechanics would make the game - SLOWER than 7th (an edition with some of the most convoluted mechanics ever, as well as one of the slowest playing ever), failed to prevent Iron Hands, failed to prevent things like the rediculous flyer problems we had at the start of 8th, etc etc, really doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence. Especially not when, outside of O/W, I haven't seen a ton that indicates a faster game. We've seen added complexity, but not added speed imo. Again, it may not be the play testers fault. Maybe they said "Hey guys, uh, this game is SLOWER", but the marketing was already locked so GW ignored them. Maybe they were only asked yo play test certain things that would have prevented them from noticing some of the things that would have been embarrassingly obvious otherwise.
All I know is, 8th being the "Most play tested edition ever" only lead to GW making the same "GW Mistakes" they always make. So color me skeptical.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/27 16:44:36
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/06/27 17:11:04
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
yukishiro1 wrote: Reroll 1s are fine, it's full rerolls that are problematic, and in particular the ridiculous full reroll 6" bubble that the chapter master trait gives.
The difference between reroll 1's and reroll all hits while hitting on 3's is small 88% vs 77%. The difference is most beneficial in overwatch and vs negative to hit modifiers. I think with overwatch being once per turn + a CP and neg modifiers being at best a -1. It will be a lot less "problematic". Also seriously...do you know how easy it is for marines to have an army of mostly 2+ BS for them a reroll aura of 1's would be nearly identical? It is fairly easy. Stacking negative modifiers was really a much bigger problem than a reroll aura ever was.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/06/27 17:34:04
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
yukishiro1 wrote: Reroll 1s are fine, it's full rerolls that are problematic, and in particular the ridiculous full reroll 6" bubble that the chapter master trait gives.
The difference between reroll 1's and reroll all hits while hitting on 3's is small 88% vs 77%. The difference is most beneficial in overwatch and vs negative to hit modifiers. I think with overwatch being once per turn + a CP and neg modifiers being at best a -1. It will be a lot less "problematic". Also seriously...do you know how easy it is for marines to have an army of mostly 2+ BS for them a reroll aura of 1's would be nearly identical? It is fairly easy. Stacking negative modifiers was really a much bigger problem than a reroll aura ever was.
You mean like every dang marine flyer in 9th will be because instead of allowing them to ignore the penelty for moving and shooting they got +1 to hit, designed for 9th yeah to break 9th edition by being the same dang OP mess.
Yes -3 Alitoc was dumb but marine's where the only army given enough dang rerolls and shooting per point to give 0 F's about it and just blow them off the board anyway the same they do with any list that's resulted in them agter 3 rounds of nerfing still having 60% win rates against non marines.
2020/06/27 17:37:08
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
You're missing my point. The whole problem with full reroll auras is it makes minuses to hit virtually irrelevant (and by the same token makes overwatch extremely powerful, especially overwatch on 5s).
The problem is that when you have full rerolls and modifiers capped at -1 you always hit at least 75% of the time no matter what even with your troops, even against targets that are supposedly very hard to hit. That's bad game design. You end up rolling buckets of dice for very little effect because almost everything hits. Targets that are difficult to hit shouldn't be getting hit 75% of the time by the cheapest models in an army.
If you have a hit roll in a game it should be meaningful. One army hitting 75% of the time no matter what, and usually 88%, isn't fun to play against nor is it particularly fun to play, unless you really like the feeling of rolling tons of dice to reach a preordained conclusion that they almost all hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 17:38:22
2020/06/27 17:41:02
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Where did we get the impression that reroll auras would be going away in 9th Ed? I've been out of touch for a few days at a time (working in a remote area during the week), but I don't recall any hints that indicated that.
Just some people wishing for it to be that way with no hint that it would be changing, like the people who got mad that 9th wasn’t alternating activations.
My uneducated hope is that reroll auras would be a number of units based on the unit similar to the new necron unit that applies its buff in the command phase. A CM could buff 3. A captain/lt could do 1.
But if marines take the most point increases then it may well be fine.
If auras would be a number of units, then they would not be auras.
The new Necron unit is a targeted buff, not an aura. Targeted buffs have existed and will continue to exist.
2020/06/27 17:48:14
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
If auras would be a number of units, then they would not be auras.
Try saying that in YMDC
Anyway, I can't see there being any chance of such a sweeping change to a range of abilities listed on a host of datasheets across the whole game. Too much errata.
At best, if its something they want to do, they'll address it as each new codex comes out.
2020/06/27 17:51:28
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Yeah, but as I've pointed out by name, it's not just Reece who has said it this time. We've been hearing from a wider playtesting group this time, and they are on the same page on this.
Maybe. But it was "not just Reese" last time either. I am with anyone saying anything he says should be taken with a heap of salt. 8th was billed as both the "most play tested edition ever" AND "the fastest edition ever". So them saying "No really! Seriously! It IS faster this time guys! And we MEAN it! SOOOOO Many play testers!", when, during the whole of 8th, play testers failed to realize how slow the core mechanics would make the game - SLOWER than 7th (an edition with some of the most convoluted mechanics ever, as well as one of the slowest playing ever), failed to prevent Iron Hands, failed to prevent things like the rediculous flyer problems we had at the start of 8th, etc etc, really doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence. Especially not when, outside of O/W, I haven't seen a ton that indicates a faster game. We've seen added complexity, but not added speed imo. Again, it may not be the play testers fault. Maybe they said "Hey guys, uh, this game is SLOWER", but the marketing was already locked so GW ignored them. Maybe they were only asked yo play test certain things that would have prevented them from noticing some of the things that would have been embarrassingly obvious otherwise.
All I know is, 8th being the "Most play tested edition ever" only lead to GW making the same "GW Mistakes" they always make. So color me skeptical.
Iron Hands came out nearly 3 yeaes after the edition launched.
And at launch the edition WAS faster.
3 years of bloat from all the releases will of course slow the game down. We went from a very barebones start to one full of rules bloat from stuff like all the Marine rerolls. Using its end state to critique where it started from is fallacious at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one of the biggest things being mentioned is the 20% less army" which means 20% less movement, die rolls and engagements per game.
Not that people won't continue to take forever to play regardless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 17:55:26
2020/06/27 17:57:45
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
I have a much bigger issue with invulnerable saves. When if comes to negating stats you pay for they are the worst offenders. Ap-5 totally nullified by a 4++ save on a 9 point model. To me that is upsetting. Admittedly I play with full reroll auras in basically every army I can play with.
Tau Kayun (after that powerful turn you have 3+1 reroll 1's from markers)
Black Legion (full rerolls and +1 to hits and shoots twice at +! to wound)
Ultramarines (Full rerolls)(+relic to reroll wounds vs their best unit)
and pretty much all the other armies I play at least reroll 1's.
Really just my Nids don't and that is because they are terrible.
The conclusion I can come to is that when you don't hit reliably nothing dies in this game. between wound rolls and inevitably invune saves and FNP. If you can't automatically hit nearly no damage will be done.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/06/27 18:03:12
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
I would say that Invul saves are really only problematic if the unit is tough, and/or has a load of wounds on top. Obviously as a Drukhari player I'm biased, but I don't see a Wych having 4++ in close combat as particularly egregious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/27 18:07:03
VAIROSEAN LIVES!
2020/06/27 18:12:56
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
harlokin wrote: I would say that Invul saves are really only problematic if the unit is tough, and/or has a load of wounds on top. Obviously as a Drukhari player I'm biased, but I don't see a Wych having 4++ in close combat as particularly egregious.
A 5++ save on a venom is 1 thing. It gives you a general durability that makes sense and its fine. 4++ and 3++ saves straight negate normal damage by 50% and 66%. Even if you hit 90% they are still taking very low damage. OFC everyone any their mother does everything they can do to hit better cause it is the only thing you can really control for when doing damage.
Also with invune saves - it's not nearly as bad on some units as other. Wyches is fine. Wracks...ehhh...I don't really think they should be bouncing volcano lances. These are just my gripes. I understand people complaining about auto hitting. My mates and I also bicker about it while we are playing. ESP when we are playing weaker armies that don't have rerolls...Feels like shooting blanks.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/06/27 18:18:45
Subject: Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
Yeah, but as I've pointed out by name, it's not just Reece who has said it this time. We've been hearing from a wider playtesting group this time, and they are on the same page on this.
Maybe. But it was "not just Reese" last time either. I am with anyone saying anything he says should be taken with a heap of salt. 8th was billed as both the "most play tested edition ever" AND "the fastest edition ever". So them saying "No really! Seriously! It IS faster this time guys! And we MEAN it! SOOOOO Many play testers!", when, during the whole of 8th, play testers failed to realize how slow the core mechanics would make the game - SLOWER than 7th (an edition with some of the most convoluted mechanics ever, as well as one of the slowest playing ever), failed to prevent Iron Hands, failed to prevent things like the rediculous flyer problems we had at the start of 8th, etc etc, really doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence. Especially not when, outside of O/W, I haven't seen a ton that indicates a faster game. We've seen added complexity, but not added speed imo. Again, it may not be the play testers fault. Maybe they said "Hey guys, uh, this game is SLOWER", but the marketing was already locked so GW ignored them. Maybe they were only asked yo play test certain things that would have prevented them from noticing some of the things that would have been embarrassingly obvious otherwise.
All I know is, 8th being the "Most play tested edition ever" only lead to GW making the same "GW Mistakes" they always make. So color me skeptical.
Iron Hands came out nearly 3 yeaes after the edition launched.
And at launch the edition WAS faster.
3 years of bloat from all the releases will of course slow the game down. We went from a very barebones start to one full of rules bloat from stuff like all the Marine rerolls. Using its end state to critique where it started from is fallacious at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one of the biggest things being mentioned is the 20% less army" which means 20% less movement, die rolls and engagements per game.
Not that people won't continue to take forever to play regardless.
I was getting ready to say this myself. The game was significantly faster when people were playing Index 40K with 7th Editionish list. Then the game changed as codexes added more rules and players moved away from vehicles and towards masses of cheap infantry in the quest for CP and board control. I wouldn't be surprised if the bigger issue in game play time is actually the list being used rather than all the extra rules GW added in the codexes.
2020/06/27 18:39:58
Subject: Re:Sad news - reroll auras are not going away
harlokin wrote: I would say that Invul saves are really only problematic if the unit is tough, and/or has a load of wounds on top. Obviously as a Drukhari player I'm biased, but I don't see a Wych having 4++ in close combat as particularly egregious.
A 5++ save on a venom is 1 thing. It gives you a general durability that makes sense and its fine. 4++ and 3++ saves straight negate normal damage by 50% and 66%. Even if you hit 90% they are still taking very low damage. OFC everyone any their mother does everything they can do to hit better cause it is the only thing you can really control for when doing damage.
Also with invune saves - it's not nearly as bad on some units as other. Wyches is fine. Wracks...ehhh...I don't really think they should be bouncing volcano lances. These are just my gripes. I understand people complaining about auto hitting. My mates and I also bicker about it while we are playing. ESP when we are playing weaker armies that don't have rerolls...Feels like shooting blanks.
Except if hitting and wounding at the rediculous rates many lists do invulnerable saves of 4++, 3++ wouldn't be need on the "Tougher" targets as it is without them units just go poop, poop, poop.
