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Martel732 wrote: The unit isn't a problem. Yes, melta being awful across the board IS a problem. I just don't think comparing this to a unit that GW has clearly given up on is a fair comparison.
I'm still not sure I'd use these guys as AT units. As I said, I think they are okay in general. They are busted compared to other melta options, but melta is awful atm, so that's a pointless comparison.
No, it isn't. If melta is busted, fix melta - not for Marines, but everyone. That's the obvious answer.
Instead, we get this answer - which is that melta is fine in the designer's eyes if it is busted, just as long as Space Marine meltas aren't busted.
I guess I'm just more cynical at this point. It IS a pointless comparison if we look at it as comparing one functional unit to another functional unit, regardless of armament. Given the number of goobers I've ran into that still think melta is great, I'm a bit surprised GW did this, but not surprised at all that only the mary sue primaris marines get it. Old bois are going to be functionally useless by the end of 9th. Just get ready and accept it.
These guys cause about 7W to T8 from 12"-24". Less than 5W if there is a 5++. I don't see the brokenness in the scheme of the game, only relative to other useless melta units.
At least they're not still out there whining about plasma when no one uses THAT anymore either.
Grimtuff wrote: More proof that GW does not know what the feth it is doing...
"And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"
Let's pause for a moment here.
Look at the coherency rule. It got panned out the gate for not solving the problem. Then we learned about the removal of models out of coherency. Now suddenly it is an elegant rule.
This is precisely the reason why we say, "WAIT FOR ALL THE INFO".
I'm still waiting patiently even if I think these guys are busted. I'm just not tossing my money over until I know a bit more.
We know we're not getting new codexes on release (so no double shoot for every melta unit).
We know the approximate pts cost from PL.
We know the differences between Fire dragons and these guys (resilience, range, damage output, positioning).
Yes we don't have the big picture but its still dissapointing to see.
And I'm right there with you - check my other comments. I just take issue with premature, "gW iS sTuPiD" comments.
T7 3+ is bad in 8th. The fact that these make it even worse does little to change the landscape.
Also, melta had similar returns in the halcyon days of melta. Esp vs anyone silly enough to use a land raider.
I'd rather these guys have one shot and ignore invulns though just so the have nots arent crushed even further
Yes, the overall hope was T7 3+ becoming useful again via move and shoot and shoot into combat.
These particular models will likely get to shoot once (twice as it were) so it stands that they need to shoot twice. I'm just not sure how I feel about it depending on what their actual cost will be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/29 17:27:26
The gap between invuln units and non-invuln is too large and this unit undescores that problem. If some units ignore ap, i have to plan around those units. This means melta must have some mechanism to be of value vs invuln. GW just chose the worst possible one, ie more shots. Par for the course.
Grimtuff wrote: More proof that GW does not know what the feth it is doing...
"And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"
Let's pause for a moment here.
Look at the coherency rule. It got panned out the gate for not solving the problem. Then we learned about the removal of models out of coherency. Now suddenly it is an elegant rule.
This is precisely the reason why we say, "WAIT FOR ALL THE INFO".
I'm still waiting patiently even if I think these guys are busted. I'm just not tossing my money over until I know a bit more.
"It's just a little broken. It's still good! It's still good!"
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Eradicators seem way to strong out the gate. I don't see how anyone can argue that they reasonably balanced for 3 for 100 to under 120 points.
300ish points for 3 squads of these just seem like an auto include. If you got the doubletap by not moving and firing at the same unit, They would probably be pretty reasonable.
the problem is when you compare them to fire dragons and see the power difference.
Them being in gravis armor is too much honestly
It's only a problem when you compare a bunch of bad units to them and then realize that, even if these guys didn't exist, nobody is still using Fire Dragons.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Sasori wrote: If you got the doubletap by not moving and firing at the same unit, They would probably be pretty reasonable.
I would second that. Since coming onto the table counts as moving it isn't a simple deploy. Maybe that might make them too fragile? An extra hit on an unmod 6 would also be ok.
These guys cause about 7W to T8 from 12"-24". Less than 5W if there is a 5++. I don't see the brokenness in the scheme of the game, only relative to other useless melta units.
These guys should be doing 9+ wounds to T7 3+ without any rerolls (6+ wounds against a 5++).
Also, if Fire dragons are a bad unit to compare to since "nobody use them", compare to a 5 girls unit of 4 multi melta retributor. It should be about the same power level and these are actually used right ?
They do more damage than 4 dudes with lascans (which aren't exactly great, I know). The "issue" (we're used to it by now though) isn't that's the fix for melta and they get it first or whatever fantasy we want to believe, they are straight out better AV infantry than most stuff. And they are Gravis Primaris to boot.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/29 18:13:26
These guys cause about 7W to T8 from 12"-24". Less than 5W if there is a 5++. I don't see the brokenness in the scheme of the game, only relative to other useless melta units.
These guys should be doing 9+ wounds to T7 3+ without any rerolls (6+ wounds against a 5++).
Also, if Fire dragons are a bad unit to compare to since "nobody use them", compare to a 5 girls unit of 4 multi melta retributor. It should be about the same power level and these are actually used right ?
They do more damage than 4 dudes with lascans. The "issue" (we're used to it by now though) isn't that's the fix for melta and they get it first or whatever fantasy we want to believe, they are straight out better AV infantry than most stuff.
They should do more than 4 lascannons, as they have half the range. They also suffer more vs invulns.
All melta right now is horrifically underpowered. That's why these guys stick out so much. They are usable melta.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/29 18:13:44
These guys cause about 7W to T8 from 12"-24". Less than 5W if there is a 5++. I don't see the brokenness in the scheme of the game, only relative to other useless melta units.
These guys should be doing 9+ wounds to T7 3+ without any rerolls (6+ wounds against a 5++).
Also, if Fire dragons are a bad unit to compare to since "nobody use them", compare to a 5 girls unit of 4 multi melta retributor. It should be about the same power level and these are actually used right ?
They do more damage than 4 dudes with lascans. The "issue" (we're used to it by now though) isn't that's the fix for melta and they get it first or whatever fantasy we want to believe, they are straight out better AV infantry than most stuff.
They should do more than 4 lascannons, as they have half the range. They also suffer more vs invulns.
All melta right now is horrifically underpowered. That's why these guys stick out so much. They are usable melta.
Half the range, yes.
Suffer more versus Invulns, no. A Marine with a Lascannon is 38 points apiece-counting the ablative Sergeant, they're just over 40 points per Lascannon. These guys get twice as many shots for less points, on a tougher platform. Their only real disadvantages versus Lascannon Devs are S8 (minor, but impactful) and range-but 24" on a tough platform with an Assault gun isn't that bad.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
They should do more than 4 lascannons, as they have half the range. They also suffer more vs invulns.
The guys using the lascans aren't T5 W3 A3 though. And they cost the same.
Both suffer from invuls the same as they are D6 damage. Maybe it could be worse for lascans as they have fewer shots.
So yeah, they "only" have 24" range. That's their weakness.
The lascannon guys outrange most enemy weapons though. These guys still have to get within range of all the most horrible gak in the game.
So if this profile would have been new Fire Dragons instead, it would be fine too then ?
Ok, whatever.
Yeah, of course. Its still a low number of shots that get shafted by t8 and invulns.
They really arnt that "shafted" by invulnerable saves, infact they effectively make the meta even more invulnerable or bust as they will be Ap-5 with doctorines FFS nothing by an invulnerable save works. They also have a 21 inch melta threat range thanks to being assualt and marines really not giving a care.
They should do more than 4 lascannons, as they have half the range. They also suffer more vs invulns.
The guys using the lascans aren't T5 W3 A3 though. And they cost the same.
Both suffer from invuls the same as they are D6 damage. Maybe it could be worse for lascans as they have fewer shots.
So yeah, they "only" have 24" range. That's their weakness.
The lascannon guys outrange most enemy weapons though. These guys still have to get within range of all the most horrible gak in the game.
So if this profile would have been new Fire Dragons instead, it would be fine too then ?
Ok, whatever.
Yeah, of course. Its still a low number of shots that get shafted by t8 and invulns.
They really arnt that "shafted" by invulnerable saves, infact they effectively make the meta even more invulnerable or bust as they will be Ap-5 with doctorines FFS nothing by an invulnerable save works. They also have a 21 inch melta threat range thanks to being assualt and marines really not giving a care.
They lose a lot of potency vs invulns. And yes, GW's "fix" really bones the have nots. Par for the course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/29 18:43:20
My musings from N&R - responding to a claim that they're not broken.
Ok. Maybe.
Intercessors went up 18%. Makes base cost of Aggressor 25 points (also 5 PL). Aggressors have the no penalty advance and situational double tap, so, straight double tap is technically "fair" here. They pay 16 for their weapons. So the nu-Aggressor is 41+ points, which means their weapon cost will need to come down slightly to keep PL5 (if they do).
These guys will be 25 + gun, which to be in PL5 would be ballpark 12 points making a squad 111 (same as most costly Aggressors currently). That means mini-meltas at 14 could come way down.
Let's strip double shooting out. Would you pay 111 points for 3 melta shots with 6" extra range? Hell no. You wouldn't. But you will if it is 6 shots (19 points per shot).
If a CSM is still 11 or 12 and a melta is ~6 points (17 or 18 points per shot) I can see things making a little more sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/29 18:49:24
With that said - yes, 111 points for 3 melta shots is clearly trash.
But 111 points for 6 assault multimeltas when Sisters would be paying 192 points (if such a unit is even possible) is clearly nuts.
With that said - yes, 111 points for 3 melta shots is clearly trash.
But 111 points for 6 assault multimeltas when Sisters would be paying 192 points (if such a unit is even possible) is clearly nuts.
Yea the big multi-melta will have to be the same cost or lower. That places 5 Retributors, 4MM, and Cherub @ 119 who don't have a move penalty anyway and get miracle dice and such. Clearly they're not as durable. The MM could come down to 12 and give you wiggle room for ablative wounds. *IF* that is the case I can see this being fine. Big unknown if though.
We only have the power level, but it is not high enough going by typical conventions. GW need to nerf the gak out of these guys straight out of the gate.
Come on now, you know how this game is played.
Step 1: GW knowingly makes x OP.
Step 2: GW sells x to as many people as possible.
Step 3: ONLY after having sold Y amount of X (determined by Accounting) will GW change it.
ERJAK wrote: Yep. 6 24" range melta shots for 100-125pts? So glad I have to pay 105 points for 4 melta shots on a unit with much worse stats.
We might finally have a contender for another actually OP primaris unit.
I don't see any points listing on that data sheet, how do you know they'll be 125 points?
We only have the power level, but it is not high enough going by typical conventions. GW need to nerf the gak out of these guys straight out of the gate.
Come on now, you know how this game is played.
Step 1: GW knowingly makes x OP.
Step 2: GW sells x to as many people as possible.
Step 3: ONLY after having sold Y amount of X (determined by Accounting) will GW change it.
Just like they did with Intercessors for two and a half years!
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
