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topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

Even with infantry MM being at 20 pts, total eradication obliteration makes it so that the body of the Eradicator and the gravis ability are free. In fact more than free, since the melta rifle is also assault on top of all.

I struggle to believe GW really did not see this during the testing phase.

Well, either MM goes to 36" or we just don't use it. The Melta Rifle is the Melta Gun ++.

Dollars to doughnuts Eradicators will turn out to not be meta warping.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh. . . we get the fact that marines sell and GW loves to push them, yadda yadda. But there's still historically been a much closer parity and design-balance between factions in terms of how units compare on the table, somewhat independent of the disproportionate model support.

Primaris just junks all that precedent.

Primaris are the new eldar. So they are keeping a precedent, really.

These point leaks are fake.

Either that, or I'm back to AoS for a while (at least until CA2020).

These point leaks are fake.

Either that, or I'm back to AoS for a while (at least until CA2020).

I'm still in the camp of, "Whomever wrote the Community article made a mistake somewhere". Whether that was the rules, or the actual points, IDK, but like I said before, Warhammer Community has made similar mistakes in the past, so there's precedent. Especially when you consider the additional chaos that the pandemic has likely thrown into their pipeline, I think it's very easy for there to simply have been a miss-communication somewhere.

 ewar wrote:


My assertion is that vanilla marines have been average to underwhelming since at least 6th edition, before then I can't really recall so I can't comment, I was mostly playing Eldar. They had brief spikes for Gladius (short lived in 7th) and Bobby G deathball at the start of 8th (mentioned in my post). You seem to be telling everyone that Marines have been competitive throughout editions which is why you called my comment a 'fabrication' (when you meant of course, a differing of opinion).

No you would be wrong. In 7th edition marines got the skyhammer annihilation formation that allowed their whole army of grav devastators and assault veterans to drop down turn 1, move, double tap with grav and double move charge with the assaults. A little bit later they got the calladius strike force and their full company, giving them FREE transports, making it so that marine players were playing 2800 pts against the opponent's 2000.

Sure, marines were not good at the beginning of the 8th edition. I'll give you that. And you want to know something cool? It was ok. Marines don't need to be better than everyone else all the time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
[quote=topaxygouroun i 789579 10848450 null
It's only logical that a twin multi-melta costs more than an eradicator: it doesn't eat nor require as much maintenance

MM on infantry is 20. Melta is 10. Fire Dragons probably sitting at 20 points total.

Interestingly weapons on vehicles are paying a premium for being able to shoot into combat, which is why the twin is 50.

Even with infantry MM being at 20 pts, total eradication obliteration makes it so that the body of the Eradicator and the gravis ability are free. In fact more than free, since the melta rifle is also assault on top of all.

I struggle to believe GW really did not see this during the testing phase.

Well, either MM goes to 36" or we just don't use it. The Melta Rifle is the Melta Gun ++.

Dollars to doughnuts Eradicators will turn out to not be meta warping.

Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 ewar wrote:


My assertion is that vanilla marines have been average to underwhelming since at least 6th edition, before then I can't really recall so I can't comment, I was mostly playing Eldar. They had brief spikes for Gladius (short lived in 7th) and Bobby G deathball at the start of 8th (mentioned in my post). You seem to be telling everyone that Marines have been competitive throughout editions which is why you called my comment a 'fabrication' (when you meant of course, a differing of opinion).

No you would be wrong. In 7th edition marines got the skyhammer annihilation formation that allowed their whole army of grav devastators and assault veterans to drop down turn 1, move, double tap with grav and double move charge with the assaults. A little bit later they got the calladius strike force and their full company, giving them FREE transports, making it so that marine players were playing 2800 pts against the opponent's 2000.

Sure, marines were not good at the beginning of the 8th edition. I'll give you that. And you want to know something cool? It was ok. Marines don't need to be better than everyone else all the time.

For the record, the skyhammer never mattered, meta wise, and the Battle Company fell off SUPER hard at the end of 7th. Pretty much only deathballs and Centurion star were left at the end.

Also, marines were super busted as the start of 8th. Stormraven spam was arguably the most powerful list relative to its competition until pre-nerf ironhands. It was in the middle of the edition that they sucked.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 ewar wrote:


My assertion is that vanilla marines have been average to underwhelming since at least 6th edition, before then I can't really recall so I can't comment, I was mostly playing Eldar. They had brief spikes for Gladius (short lived in 7th) and Bobby G deathball at the start of 8th (mentioned in my post). You seem to be telling everyone that Marines have been competitive throughout editions which is why you called my comment a 'fabrication' (when you meant of course, a differing of opinion).

No you would be wrong. In 7th edition marines got the skyhammer annihilation formation that allowed their whole army of grav devastators and assault veterans to drop down turn 1, move, double tap with grav and double move charge with the assaults. A little bit later they got the calladius strike force and their full company, giving them FREE transports, making it so that marine players were playing 2800 pts against the opponent's 2000.

Sure, marines were not good at the beginning of the 8th edition. I'll give you that. And you want to know something cool? It was ok. Marines don't need to be better than everyone else all the time.

To be fair, in percentage terms, SM sucked for a hell of a lot longer in 6th/7th than they were good and even they're egregious formations from 7th were contending with even worse Taudar stuff.

The last year or so of 8th is the only time in recent editions that SM have been head and shoulder better than everyone else. Prior to that they have been briefly pretty good but for well over 50% of the last 3 editions they've been mediocre, so the assertion above isn't entirely inaccurate.

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

Or special weapons teams, or Chosen, or any unit that can take a regular meltagun...

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

yeah,they probably won't even see play since marines are so heavily stacked with good unit options, which only exacerbates the "marines are the best" problem

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

Or special weapons teams, or Chosen, or any unit that can take a regular meltagun...

Indeed. I find it particularly galling given the shoeing melta got throughout 8th when there was basically no point ever taking it over some variety of plasma gun. If the leaked points are anything to go by, there's no lesson been learned there either.

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

So not "meta warping", but rather "melta warping"?

 Dysartes wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

So not "meta warping", but rather "melta warping"?

WAHEY!

 Nazrak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

Or special weapons teams, or Chosen, or any unit that can take a regular meltagun...

Indeed. I find it particularly galling given the shoeing melta got throughout 8th when there was basically no point ever taking it over some variety of plasma gun. If the leaked points are anything to go by, there's no lesson been learned there either.

Indeed. For all the thought put into how to make this unit good, they could've simply improved all the melta units in the game - including, for example, Sternguard combi-meltas.

But nope, Primaris need to have passable melta, everyone else can suffer and enjoy it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

Or special weapons teams, or Chosen, or any unit that can take a regular meltagun...

Indeed. I find it particularly galling given the shoeing melta got throughout 8th when there was basically no point ever taking it over some variety of plasma gun. If the leaked points are anything to go by, there's no lesson been learned there either.

Indeed. For all the thought put into how to make this unit good, they could've simply improved all the melta units in the game - including, for example, Sternguard combi-meltas.

But nope, Primaris need to have passable melta, everyone else can suffer and enjoy it.

Yeah, I'd have liked to see Melta's half-range bonus be a bit nastier (and maybe D3 shots on the Multi, harking back to its status as a nasty, blasty bastard in 2nd), but the main problem was the cost relative to plasma guns, given the much greater versatility of the latter.

The main problem is that, the whole edition is shaping up to be a middle finger to horde armies, which make many xenos players switch to Nidzilla or other monster mash armies, only for marines to come out and "eradicate" everything.

With 120 pts per unit, it's literally peanuts and you can fit two units of them plus your aggressors and thunderfires and still be left with like 1200 pts to fill in other stuff, so suddenly you have answers against both hordes and monster armies.

The icing of the cake is that with that new unit format the numarines have (3 model units doing the work of 10 other models), numarines are largely unaffected by the blast rule.

It's a shame – I've loved the whole vibe of Melta weaponry ever since I first got into 40K, but they're in a bit of a gakky place right now. But I don't think the answer is arbitrarily boosting the range and letting them shoot twice when wielded by one particular unit; that just robs them of their unique character. Make them REALLY count if you manage to get into half range, then point them accordingly.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

In terms of what I don't like about them, I'd wholeheartedy agree with this. It's just a big fat middle-finger to anyone who likes Retributors, or Fire Dragons, or Devastators.

Or special weapons teams, or Chosen, or any unit that can take a regular meltagun...

Indeed. I find it particularly galling given the shoeing melta got throughout 8th when there was basically no point ever taking it over some variety of plasma gun. If the leaked points are anything to go by, there's no lesson been learned there either.

Indeed. For all the thought put into how to make this unit good, they could've simply improved all the melta units in the game - including, for example, Sternguard combi-meltas.

But nope, Primaris need to have passable melta, everyone else can suffer and enjoy it.

Yeah, I'd have liked to see Melta's half-range bonus be a bit nastier (and maybe D3 shots on the Multi, harking back to its status as a nasty, blasty bastard in 2nd), but the main problem was the cost relative to plasma guns, given the much greater versatility of the latter.

Which is extra hilarious when you remember that no one was taking plasma anymore either. Even the deepstrike all plasma guard list (forget what they're called' fell off extremely hard.

ERJAK wrote:


Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

1) But they're not twice as good.
2) They're all suicide units. No Retributor unit was popping up, shooting, and surviving then and it won't happen now (unless they're at range, in cover, and ignoring AP2)

Retributors can get out to 36" and get +1 damage for 2 CP on top of miracle dice. In that Sisters offer a far more potent alpha strike than Eradicators by a good margin and they have plenty of other tools in reach. Fire Dragons are going to be "cheaper" at something like 2 for 1 with mobility to be effective at similar ranges with reroll 1s to wound.

Yes, I get it. They're not as durable. That means people are going to bring bigger guns for Primaris, which is less effective on W1 models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The main problem is that, the whole edition is shaping up to be a middle finger to horde armies, which make many xenos players switch to Nidzilla or other monster mash armies, only for marines to come out and "eradicate" everything.

With 120 pts per unit, it's literally peanuts and you can fit two units of them plus your aggressors and thunderfires and still be left with like 1200 pts to fill in other stuff, so suddenly you have answers against both hordes and monster armies.

The icing of the cake is that with that new unit format the numarines have (3 model units doing the work of 10 other models), numarines are largely unaffected by the blast rule.

Boltstorm Aggressors up 8 points
TFC is up 48 points
Whirlwind is up 60 points

This is your anti-horde edition?

As someone who runs 3x retributor squads in my Argent Shroud list, I will say they are not suicide units and take a bit of doing to bring down.

Not nearly as much doing as these Eradicators - seriously, they could take three or four Leman Russ Battlecannons (the non-relic ones) to the face fairly reliably. I will say my retributors can't do that.

And whether it's anti-horde or not, it's certainly anti-vehicle and anti-monster at least if you're playing against Marines. Unless the Marine player had a stroke and decides he didn't want to bring Eradicators (or maybe he's just being kind).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

1) But they're not twice as good.
2) They're all suicide units. No Retributor unit was popping up, shooting, and surviving then and it won't happen now (unless they're at range, in cover, and ignoring AP2)

Retributors can get out to 36" and get +1 damage for 2 CP on top of miracle dice. In that Sisters offer a far more potent alpha strike than Eradicators by a good margin and they have plenty of other tools in reach. Fire Dragons are going to be "cheaper" at something like 2 for 1 with mobility to be effective at similar ranges with reroll 1s to wound.

Yes, I get it. They're not as durable. That means people are going to bring bigger guns for Primaris, which is less effective on W1 models.

I'm pretty sure 2 CP will be a steep cost to pay in 9th, and even then it's not that much of a difference. Sure retributors can go to 36", but eradicators can run and shoot, which would take it closer to a 32-33" range, so really not that much of a difference. The +1 damage is nice, but again, it's 2CP, and let;s not count miracle dice unless you want to also count chapter master rerolls in the eradicators or chapter bonuses and then we're opening a huge pandora's box.

I don't know how much retributors or melta terminators will cost or whatever, but we do seem to know that a full blown eradicator is 40 pts and a single multimelta will be 20, which will make the eradicator model (body + weapon + abilities) already better than two multimeltas with nobody to be holding them.

Regardless if meltas will be present in the top tourney tables or not, this is just bad math and by a pretty damn big margin.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
As someone who runs 3x retributor squads in my Argent Shroud list, I will say they are not suicide units and take a bit of doing to bring down.

Not nearly as much doing as these Eradicators - seriously, they could take three or four Leman Russ Battlecannons (the non-relic ones) to the face fairly reliably. I will say my retributors can't do that.

And whether it's anti-horde or not, it's certainly anti-vehicle and anti-monster at least if you're playing against Marines. Unless the Marine player had a stroke and decides he didn't want to bring Eradicators (or maybe he's just being kind).

Valorous in cover...

7 * .5 * .833 * .167 * .833 = 0.4

They could take 12.5 double taps from LRBTs to the face. So....

EDIT : forgot the 6+++

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
As someone who runs 3x retributor squads in my Argent Shroud list, I will say they are not suicide units and take a bit of doing to bring down.

Not nearly as much doing as these Eradicators - seriously, they could take three or four Leman Russ Battlecannons (the non-relic ones) to the face fairly reliably. I will say my retributors can't do that.

And whether it's anti-horde or not, it's certainly anti-vehicle and anti-monster at least if you're playing against Marines. Unless the Marine player had a stroke and decides he didn't want to bring Eradicators (or maybe he's just being kind).

Valorous in cover...

7 * .5 * .833 * .167 * .833 = 0.4

They could take 12.5 double taps from LRBTs to the face. So....

EDIT : forgot the 6+++

Yeah, but valorous aren't the only Retributors and now you're including an army bonus while not including it for the Eradicators. Plus, if you upped it to an Executioner, the Valorous Heart now are killed quite easily, but the Eradicators keep on trucking.

It's like you're willfully missing the forest for the trees.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
As someone who runs 3x retributor squads in my Argent Shroud list, I will say they are not suicide units and take a bit of doing to bring down.

Not nearly as much doing as these Eradicators - seriously, they could take three or four Leman Russ Battlecannons (the non-relic ones) to the face fairly reliably. I will say my retributors can't do that.

And whether it's anti-horde or not, it's certainly anti-vehicle and anti-monster at least if you're playing against Marines. Unless the Marine player had a stroke and decides he didn't want to bring Eradicators (or maybe he's just being kind).

Valorous in cover...

7 * .5 * .833 * .167 * .833 = 0.4

They could take 12.5 double taps from LRBTs to the face. So....

EDIT : forgot the 6+++

Aww cute your using the Russ no,one everplays, it's always cadian or Catachan Commanders I seem to find on the table.
So it should have 8 shots and reroll 1's or 7 and reroll everything.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Boltstorm Aggressors up 8 points
TFC is up 48 points
Whirlwind is up 60 points

This is your anti-horde edition?

TFC is a blast weapon. This means flat 12 shots against hordes. You know, with BS 2+, no LoS, 48" range, str 5 etc etc. Same with all the other blast weapons that will pop up.

In addition, cultists moved from 4ppm to 6ppm, so it's safe to assume that stuff like termagants will also go to 6ppm. In such a case, a unit of 30 (the affomentioned horde) will move from 120 pts to 180 pts.

Your weapons and tanks really got off on the cheap side if you ask me.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yeah, but valorous aren't the only Retributors and now you're including an army bonus while not including it for the Eradicators. Plus, if you upped it to an Executioner, the Valorous Heart now are killed quite easily, but the Eradicators keep on trucking.

It's like you're willfully missing the forest for the trees.

I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

You could go Salamander - the heavy doctrine means pretty much nothing to melta. Reroll a hit and wound catches them up to miracle dice. +1 to wound is nice, but then they "only" ignore AP1.

Executioner --

7 * .5 * .833 * .666 = 1.9 //Sisters in cover
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.9
7 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 3.1 //Eradicators in cover

So it takes 3 rounds to kill the Sisters and about 3 rounds to kill the Eradicators unless they're in cover. I remain unconvinced.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

What do tyranids have? Asking for a friend.

I think they could be meta warping.

You take 3 units. If your opponent brings anything from a whole range of mid-value vehicles or monsters, you are looking at getting a 100%~ return on the first turn, if you get them into the hardly short 30" effective range (and you could advance). Everyone's favourite buff auras are also available to mitigate 5++/6+++ effects by getting you more wounds to begin with.

I mean under auras, you get nearly a 66% return shooting naked tacticals. Nearly an 80% return shooting intercessors.

Clearing these is also going to take considerably more effort than devastators/retributors - and its therefore far more likely some will survive next turn to repeat.

Some posters keep going "its just a melta thing". I don't think it is. Can you get say 6 BS 3+ lascannons for 120 points? I think an eliminator with a lasfusil according to the leaks is 38 points. Devastators as said get much less for their points. They look way undercosted compared to what most other people pay for this sort of shooting, because they seem to be paying nothing to shoot twice.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I know. I purposefully didn't wade into that, because it varies based on what you pick for your army. But people are purposefully ignoring the internal codex balance of armies. Sisters have their shtick. Eldar has psykers beyond what marines can pull.

What do tyranids have? Asking for a friend.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Would you stop making it about about meta? It's not about them warping the fething meta, it's about them being twice as good as every similar unit in the game for half the price. Yeah, single shot melta infantry hasn't exactly been 'meta defining' but when a Sisters of Battle Retributor is 32 points BEFORE the 9th nerf and these are 40 points despite having THREE TIMES the stats, it's bullgak.

1) But they're not twice as good.
2) They're all suicide units. No Retributor unit was popping up, shooting, and surviving then and it won't happen now (unless they're at range, in cover, and ignoring AP2)

Retributors can get out to 36" and get +1 damage for 2 CP on top of miracle dice. In that Sisters offer a far more potent alpha strike than Eradicators by a good margin and they have plenty of other tools in reach. Fire Dragons are going to be "cheaper" at something like 2 for 1 with mobility to be effective at similar ranges with reroll 1s to wound.

Yes, I get it. They're not as durable. That means people are going to bring bigger guns for Primaris, which is less effective on W1 models.

MULTIMELTA RETRIBUTORS ARE NOT A SUICIDE UNIT. If you actually intended to use them you took a unit of 10, camped them in a ruins with a hospitaller and an imagifier to babysit and just absorbed shots with VH. No one on earth would take them to suicide. Also, 'pop up'? How the are they going to 'pop up' with no deepstrike and no reason to put them in a transport? Saying 'unless they're in range and in cover and VH' is just saying 'well if an idiot uses them, they're a suicide unit tho!' Even people who WERE still using repressors were putting dominions in them for melta and only using rets for heavy flamer bombs.

You're right, they're three times as good. They don't need to suffer blast weapon effects to be actually usable, they don't need to worry about the new coherency rules, they're only slightly more than half as expensive (keeping in mind that just getting 9 wounds and one round of 6 shots of melta is 183 points pre-9th nerf. They have ablative wounds without needing to again expose themselves to blast, they have better chapter tactics.

That strat doesn't matter because you'll never see retributors to benefit from it. With blast basically really hurting any squads bigger than 6 models, they can't use ablative wounds to avoid losing multimeltas. With their strat costing 2 CP it's CHEAPER to just get a marine patrol of eradicators and just have a way better unit. With transport going up and regular meltas going down more than multimeltas, it's stupid to put them in a transport and they don't do anywhere near enough damage to be worth outflanking. Using miracle dice on them is chasing good money after bad.

It is similar cost in points and cheaper in CP to just take a patrol of eradicators. A unit of Eradicators+Scouts+A baseline captain is about the same points as the Retributor+Imagifier+Hospitaller you needed to make them work before.

Is the difference good enough to be meta? Considering how much a lot of other stuff is going up in points, it's possible but not guaranteed. Are they the best unit with a meltagun in the game by 200-300%? Yeah.