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ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not them killing 100% of their points. You're not including the points for the Chapter Master, nor the potential 2CP for it too. Support doesn't just exist.

Like I told Daedelus, the CM cost isn't just poured into this one unit, but distributed amongst eveything they're buffing. And yeah, just check your math.

If you like, without any buffs they knock 12 wounds off a Redemptor that starts at 125 and pays 30 points for a Plasma-something. Without buffs they kill a Predator, which is 170? Points. With Oath Relic buffs (1CP) they put 17.9 wounds into a Repulsor type target, which has got to be clost to 300 points.

Lets make a game. What's the most expensive target these guys can kill with average rolls? 2 categories, buffed and unbuffed. Go!

Expensive = pts? PL? $$$?

Haha, points.

Although I'll take submissions for $$$ too. The FW Diemos Predator? 98$ US

I have been thinking about this new Eradicator unit and they are too strong. The problem though isn't the PL or pt cost but the ability "Total Obliteration" is just poorly designed. It essentially is rewarding you for doing something you would have done anyway. Since you can't one shot tanks anymore, I almost never split fire with my anti armor anyway. If the new unit didn't have this rule I wouldn't be splitting their fire anyway since I need more than one melta weapon to kill a tank.

The ability needs to be changed to be more restrictive, maybe you have to be shooting at one target and be within half range. Or just change the ability to be something else entirely. Such as: If you shoot at a single target you get +1 to wound or you are always treated as being within half range even if you aren't.

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not them killing 100% of their points. You're not including the points for the Chapter Master, nor the potential 2CP for it too. Support doesn't just exist.

Like I told Daedelus, the CM cost isn't just poured into this one unit, but distributed amongst eveything they're buffing. And yeah, just check your math.

If you like, without any buffs they knock 12 wounds off a Redemptor that starts at 125 and pays 30 points for a Plasma-something. Without buffs they kill a Predator, which is 170? Points. With Oath Relic buffs (1CP) they put 17.9 wounds into a Repulsor type target, which has got to be clost to 300 points.

Lets make a game. What's the most expensive target these guys can kill with average rolls? 2 categories, buffed and unbuffed. Go!

Expensive = pts? PL? $$$?

Haha, points.

Although I'll take submissions for $$$ too. The FW Diemos Predator? 98$ US

Aussieland.
Anything fw delievered to there magically turns into Gold dust or so i heard.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's not them killing 100% of their points. You're not including the points for the Chapter Master, nor the potential 2CP for it too. Support doesn't just exist.

Like I told Daedelus, the CM cost isn't just poured into this one unit, but distributed amongst eveything they're buffing. And yeah, just check your math.

If you like, without any buffs they knock 12 wounds off a Redemptor that starts at 125 and pays 30 points for a Plasma-something. Without buffs they kill a Predator, which is 170? Points. With Oath Relic buffs (1CP) they put 17.9 wounds into a Repulsor type target, which has got to be clost to 300 points.

Lets make a game. What's the most expensive target these guys can kill with average rolls? 2 categories, buffed and unbuffed. Go!

Expensive = pts? PL? $$$?

Haha, points.

Although I'll take submissions for $$$ too. The FW Diemos Predator? 98$ US

Aussieland.
Anything fw delievered to there magically turns into Gold dust or so i heard.

I think Australia is specifically known for it's opal deposits. I mean, besides all the rocks blue with iron.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I have been thinking about this new Eradicator unit and they are too strong. The problem though isn't the PL or pt cost but the ability "Total Obliteration" is just poorly designed. It essentially is rewarding you for doing something you would have done anyway[...]

The ability needs to be changed to be more restrictive, maybe you have to be shooting at one target and be within half range. Or just change the ability to be something else entirely. Such as: If you shoot at a single target you get +1 to wound or you are always treated as being within half range even if you aren't.

Yeah, this is my thinking too. When you introduce a new weapon, it should feel different - in point cost, in capability, in strategic use - than the other weapons in its class. This is simply a cheaper multi-melta with the disadvantages stripped off, given to a unit that can potentially double its damage output. Given the choice, no one would ever pick a different melta unit over this one. All other arguments aside - this unit does everything the more expensive Sororitas Retributors do, but harder, better, faster, stronger.

Firing twice at half-range only would be unique and encourage riskier play. Keeping their heavy attribute would at least cut down on mobility. There are plenty of ways to make this unit feel unique and not just a straight upgrade, but they didn't use any of them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
[snip]

Well, if what gw said about most things going up in points then these things will be getting an even better return. Especially considering that their primary targets will likely be armed with blast weapons and therefore getting a bigger price hike.

[/snip]

From what I can see for Marines it looks like the base price of infantry went up but the cost of special guns went down (with a few notable exceptions) so Primaris squads went up but Firstborn squads mostly held even by comparison. Vehicles are a different story.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
It is absolutely disigenuous to include the full cost of buffing units when in reality they can be buffing your entire army. Besides, we've already given multiple examples where they return more than their points worth unbuffed.

Some people want their broken I win button units and they will happily throw balance into the eye of terror for that haha your army sucks feeling, at a certain point engaging with them is utterly pointless, walk away before the drag you down to their level and beat you death.

cosign this. I'm reading this thread but there's no point in actually debating with a certain person or two. Just take a look at who you're discussing the game with, and ask yourself if you genuinely think that there is ANY amount of logic that will convince them to step back and say yeah I might be wrong on this one, lol.

See, I think you don't spend enough time reading everything I wrote. And you haven't offered any logic. All you do is say, "haha you stupid for thinking differently, rite guyz?". So brave.

Because originally I said:

GW need to nerf the gak out of these guys straight out of the gate.

And I wasn't sure how to take it:

Maybe regular metlas become dirt cheap? Even then....I have no idea how to reconcile this.

I certainly had my doubts:

Yes, no points. It's possible the points could be higher than the PL indicates. But this is enough for me to sit on my hands and wait to see the points rather than buying the box straight up.

And then I started to actually think about it a little more deeply. So you keep on your high horse if you want and we'll see what people are actually successful with in a couple months (I guess in Europe, because I can't foresee tournaments in the US any time soon).

Listen while I definitely think you have some evident bias here, it was not you I was referring to, nor was it last time you assumed that. I’ve seen you admit you were wrong in the past so what I said here doesn’t really apply to you.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Listen while I definitely think you have some evident bias here, it was not you I was referring to, nor was it last time you assumed that. I’ve seen you admit you were wrong in the past so what I said here doesn’t really apply to you.

I apologize for being snippy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Well, if what gw said about most things going up in points then these things will be getting an even better return. Especially considering that their primary targets will likely be armed with blast weapons and therefore getting a bigger price hike.

To reiterate: the problem is that these things would be considered awesome for any faction but loyalist marines, who just look at them compared to their other options and think "Meh, seems ok. Maybe I'll use them, maybe I won't ". Gw just can't stop piling More Newer More Better units and rules on primaris while neglecting everyone else. It's not healthy for the game. Eventually people will get sick of it and possibly just stop playing. (And no, I'm not one of them, so don't go there.)

I still think it just boils down to basic envy. It has been a recurring thing for as long as I can remember - especially for CSM. Why don't we get Whirlwinds? Or Ven Dreads? etc etc.

Marines would sure love Warp Time and Doom, I'd bet. The design of primaris is just of a nature that creates these units.

But let's do a thought experiment. What if Eradicators were Intercessors with a Melta. Well then they'd be 35 or so points (if we expect this gun to be 15). Let's go easy and say you could get 4 of them for 120 points. You'd never take them. They'd be hugely vulnerable, right? So you bump the durability a bit, but that still doesn't solve it. Three shots is nothing.

Is this the "right' design? I don't know. They could be even cheaper than 40, which would suck, but it also won't be a death knell.

I think you just described Hellblasters with Melta instead of Plasma. Those woulds be fine.

Also you could put them in the floating razorback.

I'll also remind you that 35 points is the cost of T4 1W Devastator with a Multimelta.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Well, if what gw said about most things going up in points then these things will be getting an even better return. Especially considering that their primary targets will likely be armed with blast weapons and therefore getting a bigger price hike.

To reiterate: the problem is that these things would be considered awesome for any faction but loyalist marines, who just look at them compared to their other options and think "Meh, seems ok. Maybe I'll use them, maybe I won't ". Gw just can't stop piling More Newer More Better units and rules on primaris while neglecting everyone else. It's not healthy for the game. Eventually people will get sick of it and possibly just stop playing. (And no, I'm not one of them, so don't go there.)

I still think it just boils down to basic envy. It has been a recurring thing for as long as I can remember - especially for CSM. Why don't we get Whirlwinds? Or Ven Dreads? etc etc.

Marines would sure love Warp Time and Doom, I'd bet. The design of primaris is just of a nature that creates these units.

But let's do a thought experiment. What if Eradicators were Intercessors with a Melta. Well then they'd be 35 or so points (if we expect this gun to be 15). Let's go easy and say you could get 4 of them for 120 points. You'd never take them. They'd be hugely vulnerable, right? So you bump the durability a bit, but that still doesn't solve it. Three shots is nothing.

Is this the "right' design? I don't know. They could be even cheaper than 40, which would suck, but it also won't be a death knell.

Can't speak for all csm players, but I don't want your whirlwinds, or ven dreds, or your drop pods (I'll keep my dreadclaws, thank you very much), and I definitely don't want any damned primaris in my csm. I just want good rules for the old units I already have. Some useful legion traits, maybe get some of the stuff we lost back, like veteran abilities, or meaningful marks. If I wanted what loyalists have I'd just play loyalists. And I haven't been tempted, not even once, in twenty years.

I know there are posters who, for reasons, decided they were a Chaos Player back in 1998 and have been complaining about the Loyalists having more toys since 4th edition.

But the issue here is purely about points. If Eradictators were 100 points per model they would suck, regardless of any questions of ability creep. As far as I'm aware however, you cannot buy 6 multimeltas for 120 points in 8th. Doing some calculations on the other leaked Marine points costs, most comparisons do not even get close - and often come on far more fragile platforms.

They offer an incredibly return on any unit in the game which has multiple wounds. For Marine players they would seem to be an auto-take just for hosing down rival Primaris models, never mind getting 100% returns versus a whole range of vehicles and monsters.

If these guys had 12" range rather than 24" - fine, no problem. Its a major handicap. Even if they were at 18" because magic Primaris gotta go better it would be more significant. But this idea that 24" is a short range on an assault gun on a model that can move 6" is, to my mind at least, nonsense. Okay, if you really backline, they won't be able to get to you. But 30", plus an advance if needed, is going to cover an awful lot of the board. This matters if you are going to wander them in from a table edge etc.

As I see it there is no way this unit is worth 40 points when compared to other units in the game. It does more damage and is tougher to kill. They are worth at least 50, probably even 60 points per model. Which would probably make them too fragile - but really, that's the going rate for two assault BS 3+ Range 24 melta shots.

I also found it quite strange that when you compare them to IG heavy weapons squads which are (in my opinion) the epitome of cost efficiency when it comes to bringing heavy weapons, the eradicators still come out pretty cheap...
6 Lascannons with Heavy weapons teams are 126 points, so a little bit more expensive for the same amount of shots. They have +1 S and twice the range, but are heavy (so -1 on the move), have -1 AP, have 1 point worse BS. So beside them being as tough as wet toilet paper, they don't even compare favourably economically.

Against T7 3+: 9.33/12 wounds (Eradicators 24''/12'') vs. 5.83 wounds
Against T8 3+: 7/9 wounds vs. 5.83 wounds
Against T8, 3+, 4++ (fully buffed up Knight): 3.5/4.5 wounds vs.3.5 wounds

=> in other words: even the IG glascannon unit specifically geared for "cheapest heavy weapons platform in ist codex" do less damage while costing more points (and likely going up), while not being assault and much less sturdy.
And I personally don't think the additional range really balances this out on a smaller board with better terrain rules and everyone being able to deepstrike


Edit: to be fair: math for both Units was done in complete vaccuum, so not accounting for any auras, regiment traits, chapter tactics, doctrines, stratagems, etc.

Eradicators are something you take because they are just as effective vs things with invuls as any alternative if not more so, and then the second you get matched against anything like Tyranid Monsters well you just have 120 pt bombs that will just nuke anything your opponent has on the table.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Can't speak for all csm players, but I don't want your whirlwinds, or ven dreds, or your drop pods (I'll keep my dreadclaws, thank you very much), and I definitely don't want any damned primaris in my csm. I just want good rules for the old units I already have. Some useful legion traits, maybe get some of the stuff we lost back, like veteran abilities, or meaningful marks. If I wanted what loyalists have I'd just play loyalists. And I haven't been tempted, not even once, in twenty years.

Oh, yea. No one wants those anymore. It was just a memory from ages past.

I'd die if we got marks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


What cost did you use for the LC and IS? I'm reasonably sure the LC will be 10 or 12 now, but no idea what IS will land at.

well cultists and IS have been used interchangably pts wise.
GW hasn't broken that all through 8th, more or less.
And cultists are now 6 pts. assuming IS also go up there then i'd say 9 pts / model

@ Daedalus: I assumed the current (8th Edition) 15 points/Lascannon and 6 points per heavy weapons team (of 2 dudes each, so 3 points per body).


Edit: mind that as of now (8th Edition) IG has the cheapest Lascannons (15 points vs. 20points/Adeptus Mechanicus Cognis Lascannon or Space Marines 25 if I'm not wrong?) and the cheapest platform that can carry one (6 points per WS4+) and still the Eradicators are more Points efficitient.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why does MM suck ? Because you can get a LC for less cost and twice the range, most things don't care about AP, etc. Why spend on a weapon that might not safely get into range? Those were typical discussions had in months past. At the moment I'm not interested. Can you answer the challenge and name an AT unit that nets ~100% points return at 24 or more inches?

Whilst I agree that the Eradicators are overtuned, as Primaris gonna Primaris. Ork Tankbusta's vs a Pred/vehicle at 24" might be in the same league... 17 PPM in 8th with rokkit launchers re-rolling all misses vs vehicles. S8 AP-2 D flat 3. I'm no math hammerer though. Although they will die to a stiff breeze, which the Eradicators will not....

 Rinkydink wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why does MM suck ? Because you can get a LC for less cost and twice the range, most things don't care about AP, etc. Why spend on a weapon that might not safely get into range? Those were typical discussions had in months past. At the moment I'm not interested. Can you answer the challenge and name an AT unit that nets ~100% points return at 24 or more inches?

Whilst I agree that the Eradicators are overtuned, as Primaris gonna Primaris. Ork Tankbusta's vs a Pred/vehicle at 24" might be in the same league... 17 PPM in 8th with rokkit launchers re-rolling all misses vs vehicles. S8 AP-2 D flat 3, with exploding sixes on the hit roll. I'm no math hammerer though. Although they will die to a stiff breeze, which the Eradicators will not....

A challenger!! Step right up and test your strength!

Lets see- 17 ppm, 7 models for 119 vs. Eradicators 120
7x .555 x .666 x .666 x 3 = 5.1 wounds vs a Predator.
Vs Eradicators with 9.3

No prize!

Mumble mumble. too much theory too much discussion.

Numbers are easy: 6 multimeltas lying on the ground = 120 pts. 3 eradicators = 120 pts.

You get the bodies, the stats, the assault weapons and all the abilities that come along for free.

IT DOES NOT MATTER if melta is a bad weapon or not.

IT DOES NOT MATTER if another astartes unit would be better for the role or not.

IT DOES NOT MATTER if they get lower efficiency vs invuln saves or not.

By pricing them both 120 pts, you automatically do one of the following:

1. Admit that the MM is worth 20 pts, at which points eradicators are OP.

2. Admit that eradicators are worth 120 pts, at which point the melta weapons of every other faction are nerfed.

There is really no discussion that would get anyone around this.

The fact that they are comfortable releasing both those point pricings at the same time (not by having a gap between them where people actually found out that melta weapons suck or something), it means that you either made a mistake with the points costs, or that you made them better on purpose.

And it doesn't matter which one is it. GW is not a small indie company with 3.5 guys in a room. They don't get to make mistakes like that if they want my money. And they definitely won't get my money if they did this on purpose.

And no, that's not "basic envy" or any other bullgak. It's simple customer expectation. I am a customer as much as that guy, and I expect to be treated the same way as that guy.

There is no conceivable scenario where MM are worth 20 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no conceivable scenario where MM are worth 20 pts.

This we would only know once we see the points costs of models and units and weapons.

But as I said, it does not matter.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no conceivable scenario where MM are worth 20 pts.

This we would only know once we see the points costs of models and units and weapons.

But as I said, it does not matter.

We've seen enough to know this, I think.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no conceivable scenario where MM are worth 20 pts.

This we would only know once we see the points costs of models and units and weapons.

But as I said, it does not matter.

I agree. Completely.

@intersectum, forgot to add the free bomb squig in your calcs earlier, but it still won't make up the difference, let alone that the orks are much, much more vulnerable than the Primaris. (edit: hah, bomb squigs are 10pts. oopsie)

Yeah these guys should be range 12 or 15".

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why does MM suck ? Because you can get a LC for less cost and twice the range, most things don't care about AP, etc. Why spend on a weapon that might not safely get into range? Those were typical discussions had in months past. At the moment I'm not interested. Can you answer the challenge and name an AT unit that nets ~100% points return at 24 or more inches?

Whilst I agree that the Eradicators are overtuned, as Primaris gonna Primaris. Ork Tankbusta's vs a Pred/vehicle at 24" might be in the same league... 17 PPM in 8th with rokkit launchers re-rolling all misses vs vehicles. S8 AP-2 D flat 3, with exploding sixes on the hit roll. I'm no math hammerer though. Although they will die to a stiff breeze, which the Eradicators will not....

A challenger!! Step right up and test your strength!

Lets see- 17 ppm, 7 models for 119 vs. Eradicators 120
7x .555 x .666 x .666 x 3 = 5.1 wounds vs a Predator.
Vs Eradicators with 9.3

No prize!

You forgot DDD (not that it catches them up).

7 * 1.167 * 555 * .666 * .666 * 3 = 6

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah these guys should be range 12 or 15".

Range has always been an issue. Why does every primaris weapon have +6 range on its counterpart in other armies (or their own, considering tacs)? Look at the assault intercessors heavy bolt pistol: 18 range and -1AP, thus partially negating one of the major drawbacks of pistols: short range. Everything primaris has to be + something on everything else that compares to it. I'm waiting to see if the new rules for "astartes chainswords" applies for all astartes, or just primaris.

@ topaxygouroun i

Numbers are easy: 6 multimeltas lying on the ground = 120 pts. 3 eradicators = 120 pts.

Even worse: those 6 multimelters would still be heavy and thus worse than the 6 assault melter shots of the Eradicators. So even if the model holding the Multimelter was free, the Eradicators would still have the upper hand because they are assault.

Whats DDD?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Whats DDD?

Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

With Ork shooting, a 6 to hit lets you make another attack. So effectively you get 7/6 more hits.

Tyel wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Whats DDD?

Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

With Ork shooting, a 6 to hit lets you make another attack. So effectively you get 7/6 more hits.

Hmm.

Assume 36 shots, with equal distribution.

Orks normally hit on a 5+, correct?

So 12 hits, of which 6 get to make an extra attack.

Of those 6, 2 more hit, for a total of 14 - and 14/12 simplifies to 7/6.

Makes sense when you work it through, but looks really weird when just stated

Having said that, I'm unclear why the stated accuracy in Insectum's original calculation was .555 instead of .333 - any chance you could enlighten us, chief?