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yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines definitely need even more free AP on their attacks, it's what the game is calling out for.

Well the new Primaris are getting it anyways so the ship has sailed on that one. I'm only in this for the Classic/True/Realmarine Assault Squads and their Chaos counterparts. Those Chaos marines in particular don't have the free Doctrine AP either.

 Insectum7 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines definitely need even more free AP on their attacks, it's what the game is calling out for.

Well the new Primaris are getting it anyways so the ship has sailed on that one. I'm only in this for the Classic/True/Realmarine Assault Squads and their Chaos counterparts. Those Chaos marines in particular don't have the free Doctrine AP either.

What are the odds the chaos marines didn't 'trade in' their shiny Astartes chainswords when they signed up to be traitors, like so many other pieces of kit?

Voss wrote:
Given the sheer number of assault weapons in primaris hands, White Scars are the primaris army you never knew you needed.

Interesting.

I've been going over the Marine books to see what rules I want to use for my Primaris force that's my own custom chapter. I'm not 100% sold on the custom Chapter Tactics, so figured I'd go with a successor or one of the main ones.

I had been thinking White Scars simply because "May assault & charge" is by far the easiest to remember, but now it seems like that's an even better idea.

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines definitely need even more free AP on their attacks, it's what the game is calling out for.

Well the new Primaris are getting it anyways so the ship has sailed on that one. I'm only in this for the Classic/True/Realmarine Assault Squads and their Chaos counterparts. Those Chaos marines in particular don't have the free Doctrine AP either.

What are the odds the chaos marines didn't 'trade in' their shiny Astartes chainswords when they signed up to be traitors, like so many other pieces of kit?

If mini marines get it and we dont then CSM would pretty much revolt.

Assuming we're not numb from the constant beatings...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Martel on this.

It really wasn't, heck Noise Marines with their Sonic Blasters cost more then Intercessors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines definitely need even more free AP on their attacks, it's what the game is calling out for.

Well the new Primaris are getting it anyways so the ship has sailed on that one. I'm only in this for the Classic/True/Realmarine Assault Squads and their Chaos counterparts. Those Chaos marines in particular don't have the free Doctrine AP either.

What are the odds the chaos marines didn't 'trade in' their shiny Astartes chainswords when they signed up to be traitors, like so many other pieces of kit?

If mini marines get it and we dont then CSM would pretty much revolt.

CSM revolting? Welcome to 10,000 years ago.
Horus needed a mum to tell him if he kept making faces it would get stuck that way.

 Eldarain wrote:
Assuming we're not numb from the constant beatings...

And we no longer have the numbers, given we went up 3 points each.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It really wasn't, heck Noise Marines with their Sonic Blasters cost more then Intercessors.

Hopefully that'll be less of a problem in the long run, if an EC Codex comes out.

Man I hope that EC and WE get Codices before a new Chaos 'Dex comes out. I don't want a Chaos 'Dex with outdated Noise Marines/Berzerkers in there for a whole edition.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Martel on this.

It really wasn't, heck Noise Marines with their Sonic Blasters cost more then Intercessors.

GW should never have made doctrines, never made super doctrines, and never made gak like the eradicators. They should have just made the old rule marines cheaper. They started the race to the bottom, then turned it on its head with rules that they didn't understand with effects that they didn't think about.

Martel732 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Martel on this.

It really wasn't, heck Noise Marines with their Sonic Blasters cost more then Intercessors.

GW should never have made doctrines, never made super doctrines, and never made gak like the eradicators. They should have just made the old rule marines cheaper. They started the race to the bottom, then turned it on its head with rules that they didn't understand with effects that they didn't think about.

Changing cost was never a solution for the normal MeQ statline problems. The whole game changed around marines. MeQs needed a new statline, not to get cheap and become horde infantry. The problem is str4 ap0 and T4 3+.

Instead of Doctrines and Super Doctrines, they should have just restored the marine statline to how it worked in previous editions. +1 attack on the charge, let bolters have old-style Ap5 (fully ignore 5+ and 6+), and ignore ap-1. Add -1 ap to chainswords to make up for other melee changes. And then base marines at 15pts.

It wouldn't have been a perfect solution either, but its a lot better than Doctrines+Super Doctrines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I think it doesn't pan out when you consider how just straight terrible most CSM traits are, but there are other things to consider.

But I'll ask you a question. How much to do you think an additional T4 3+ wound is worth?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I think it doesn't pan out when you consider how just straight terrible most CSM traits are, but there are other things to consider.

But I'll ask you a question. How much to do you think an additional T4 3+ wound is worth?

Seems you forgot about the extra attack and 6" on their gun. Aswell as the fact they get doctrines on top of their traits which CSM don't get.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think they were hoping for some relief...

They got relief? CSM used to be 13 - a separation of 4 from Primaris. The separation is now 6.

Do you think that's remotely sufficient?

I think it doesn't pan out when you consider how just straight terrible most CSM traits are, but there are other things to consider.

But I'll ask you a question. How much to do you think an additional T4 3+ wound is worth?

Oh. Additional. That's a much harder question. Put I'd price oldmarines with no doctrines at 11-12 pts tops.

 Castozor wrote:

Seems you forgot about the extra attack and 6" on their gun. Aswell as the fact they get doctrines on top of their traits which CSM don't get.

I did not forget.

Then why ask merely for what an extra wound is worth? Primaris offer so much more than simply an extra wound it is ridiculous.

You can look at space marines and figure out what an extra T4 3+ wound is valued at. Hint: it's 3 points or less, since a tactical is 15 and an intercessor is 20, and the intercessor also has better range and AP on the gun, and more attacks.

Now is that a reasonable value? Of course not. But they are all-in now on making Primaris just better period, and that means making tacticals utterly useless so nobody ever uses them again because they gotta sell those primaris models to whoever hasn't already bought them.

Martel732 wrote:


Oh. Additional. That's a much harder question. Put I'd price oldmarines with no doctrines at 11-12 pts tops.

Right, so - say 12 points. Intercessors at 20.

10 minis for 6 primaris
10 wounds vs 12
20 AP0 bolter shots @ 24" vs 12 AP1 @ 30"
21 S4 AP0 vs 13 S4 AP0 in melee

A ravager could kill 40 points of mini and 133 points of primaris.
An twin assault cannon -- 32 of mini and 27 of primaris
40 lasgun shots -- 27 of mini and 33 of primaris

Would you take the mini that loses a single extra AP for a turn over the Primaris? I think I would every time.

This tells me 1 wound, 6" & 1 AP, and 1A are worth less than 8 points. 6 points is probably ok (maybe 7, but that isn't wildly different from 6), but then traits and docs suck the wind out.

As for Noise Marines - 2 points for death throes is ok. 5 for a sonic blaster feels wrong - I can see where they might have anchored it against a combi-bolter and wound up making a bad decision as a result.

Your math on at least some of that is hugely off. Lasgun shots for example by definition would kill fewer points of primaris than minimarines if the minimarines cost more than half what the primaris do. Anything D1 will.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Your math on at least some of that is hugely off. Lasgun shots for example by definition would kill fewer points of primaris than minimarines if the minimarines cost more than half what the primaris do. Anything D1 will.

Sorry - you're right. FIxed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stumbled across this - should be pretty handy:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IRnHYqQfUNymy6be2vn9iZAczaR8HTblA-Id1qEBnlU/htmlview?usp=sharing&pru=AAABc28f5BQ*i1oy0PpyaMx8v5lwdPxlmA

What sunk primaris inititally was how many damage 2 weapons they put in the game. It's still their achilles heel.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Fellblade down to 690


Weapons unchanged so a 60 point buff in total.

Thanks Daed. 50 actually, but didn't twin heavy bolters go up? So not quite that. Maybe there's something in the new fw books that explains why it didn't go down more. I'll wait and see before getting salty.

Yea there's the whole FW re-write, but I wouldn't expect too much for units like the Fellblade.

Ok, let's say you're right. So my previously 917 point bone stock fellblade is now 880 points: a whopping 37 point buff. Why? They obviously noticed it this time, so shear laziness is out. It's still massively overpriced compared to similar units. Does gw just not want the fw super heavys to be played? I'm starting to feel salty. In fact, considering what they did to Renegades and Heretics and what I'm seeing for csm, I'm feeling really salty.

And since I'm behind the conversation let me just get these out of the way:

Grots the same price as guardsmen? That's some fine balance right there.

Also: nice to see that gw is finally acknowledging the fact that they've screwed up the rules for the ancient Veterans of the Long War so badly that a warrior who has survived hundreds to thousands of years fighting in literal hell is now equal to a neophyte from a thin blooded chapter from founding #12365 by pricing them the same. And the best of the best of those ancient warriors? They're the equivalent to the average joes from founding #12365. Fine fluffy rules writing right there yessirree Bob.

There, I feel better. Been holding that in all day.

WhiteDog wrote:
What do you guys think of impulsor with the point hike ? Are they still worth ? Was thinking about buying one out before the 9th appeared to feth everything up.

I think they are still going to be fine. So far from my whole 4 games played of 9th edition, there is a real push to get up the table and get on those objectives fast, so I'm sure they will see play, but I don't think we are going to see a lot of value in running impulsor spam. I have two for my blood angels and honestly, I can't see myself buying any more than that for them. For my Space Wolves, ill likely pick up one or two, but again, I don't see myself buying any more than that to play them.

2 impulsors in a list is going to be very common I think, just to immediately get out onto the middle objectives T1 with stuff that's hard to dislodge.

Martel732 wrote:
What sunk primaris inititally was how many damage 2 weapons they put in the game. It's still their achilles heel.

Right - there's a delicate balance. It won't be a perfect balance. Primaris facing riptides will have less fun than CSM, perhaps and CSM won't enjoy fighting Primaris - unless they're bringing more special weapons.

I think the extra 6" is going to matter a lot less with the missions and table size.

Speaking of....where are those damned mission leaks?

I think the table size thing has been over-emphasised. People keep bringing it up like everyone's tables just shrunk spontaneously and that all players worldwide have happily and graciously adopted GW's standard recommended minimum table size.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the table size thing has been over-emphasised. People keep bringing it up like everyone's tables just shrunk spontaneously and that all players worldwide have happily and graciously adopted GW's standard recommended minimum table size.

Watching some of the 9th ed preview vids, I think Tabletop Tactics was saying that many major events were switching to the new table size. If that's the case I think you'll see many metas shift to that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the table size thing has been over-emphasised. People keep bringing it up like everyone's tables just shrunk spontaneously and that all players worldwide have happily and graciously adopted GW's standard recommended minimum table size.

Well, right I guess it depends on what lens you will take from the hobby. More casual players might experience games on 6x4 and feel differently about balance than a tournament player.

This is certainly not a great dynamic to have, but I think people who don't want to do tournament stuff might have to accept a little more fudge factor.

Time will tell, I guess.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What sunk primaris inititally was how many damage 2 weapons they put in the game. It's still their achilles heel.

Right - there's a delicate balance. It won't be a perfect balance. Primaris facing riptides will have less fun than CSM, perhaps and CSM won't enjoy fighting Primaris - unless they're bringing more special weapons.

I think the extra 6" is going to matter a lot less with the missions and table size.

Speaking of....where are those damned mission leaks?

They didn't fix this problem. They just made primaris kill MOAR THINGS and ROLL MOAR DICE. The gravis armor +1 W fix was a good change, though.

Martel732 wrote:


They didn't fix this problem. They just made primaris kill MOAR THINGS and ROLL MOAR DICE. The gravis armor +1 W fix was a good change, though.

Sure, but I'm still of the mind that Primaris are a tiny piece of the puzzle. It will be interesting to see what models hit tables.