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 Trickstick wrote:
All this talk of Eradicators is very confusing for a Guard tank commander like me.

Don't know if it was mentionned before but a trustworthy french youtuber rumored the Invader (the new primaris buggy) to be "80 points + 5 with a multi melta" [/endquote]

So first: hey new weapon option with the multimelta.
Second: If it's 85 with MM (25 points) then i assume 80 is with the onslaught gatling canon (20 points) and so it's base cost is 60 points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Conclusion: by your own metric, Eradicators are underpowered and need buffing with additional rifle shot to actually do the 5-1 design target

You forgot the melee: on the charge, 27 attacks, kills 8 more, wiping the IG out. That's a 50 pts squad for 120 pts, which is actually dramatically overperformed.

??
There's not enough coffee in my system yet, so you'll have to explain how you get 27 melee attacks out of 3 Eradicators.

I already asked that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psychocouac wrote:
Don't know if it was mentionned before but a trustworthy french youtuber rumored the Invader (the new primaris buggy) to be "80 points + 5 with a multi melta" [/endquote]

So first: hey new weapon option with the multimelta.
Second: If it's 85 with MM (25 points) then i assume 80 is with the onslaught gatling canon (20 points) and so it's base cost is 60 points.

I'm thinking the assumption is three units of three eradicators. Although I'd think you'd have 30 attacks since the Sarge has a bonus attack.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Conclusion: by your own metric, Eradicators are underpowered and need buffing with additional rifle shot to actually do the 5-1 design target

You forgot the melee: on the charge, 27 attacks, kills 8 more, wiping the IG out. That's a 50 pts squad for 120 pts, which is actually dramatically overperformed.

??
There's not enough coffee in my system yet, so you'll have to explain how you get 27 melee attacks out of 3 Eradicators.

Sorry, broke my math wrong and assumed 9*3 attacks, instead of 3*3 attacks (so I added an extra 3 in the multiplication).

Still far greater melee capability than it warrants for a specialist anti-tank unit. 5 Retributors with 4 MM are 10 pts more and have far far far fewer attacks, lower strength in melee, fewer shots, same range, less mobility, less durability, and less potential to be buffed.

Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The thing i have not seen many people mention is that you have to wait for your own turn to fire in melee. Plus, you could easily be down a bracket from the combat and be hitting on 6s (Guard player). I don't thing that things like Heavy Bolters are really going to do much in combat. Now flamers, they may be worth taking...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Requiring you to risk killing your own model to get high damage out of your Plasmagun is definitely part of that calculation. Costing the same or similar makes a lot of sense to me.

If you really want a headscratcher ask why the Grav Cannon costs the same as the Plasmagun and Meltagun. Like, are they nerfing it or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Conclusion: by your own metric, Eradicators are underpowered and need buffing with additional rifle shot to actually do the 5-1 design target

You forgot the melee: on the charge, 27 attacks, kills 8 more, wiping the IG out. That's a 50 pts squad for 120 pts, which is actually dramatically overperformed.

??
There's not enough coffee in my system yet, so you'll have to explain how you get 27 melee attacks out of 3 Eradicators.

Sorry, broke my math wrong and assumed 9*3 attacks, instead of 3*3 attacks (so I added an extra 3 in the multiplication).

Still far greater melee capability than it warrants for a specialist anti-tank unit. 5 Retributors with 4 MM are 10 pts more and have far far far fewer attacks, lower strength in melee, fewer shots, same range, less mobility, less durability, and less potential to be buffed.

Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating. So they should need a 5-1 advantage in points to wipe out a unit (meaning they should wipe out about 5 guardsmen a turn), which is about what they do between their own shooting and melee. Shooting + Melee for 240 points of Eradicators kills roughly 11 guardsmen, or 55 points. So they're very slightly too good at this to even be "Specialists". But the real problem is they're WAAAAAAAAAAY too good at shooting tanks to be considered generalists.

Really they're just too good at everything by my metric.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

A squad of three has a Sergeant? What is he sergeant of, two other people? Is each of them a corporal with his own fireteam of no-one? I guess that's par for the course for GW, I just forgot it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Requiring you to risk killing your own model to get high damage out of your Plasmagun is definitely part of that calculation. Costing the same or similar makes a lot of sense to me.

If you really want a headscratcher ask why the Grav Cannon costs the same as the Plasmagun and Meltagun. Like, are they nerfing it or something?

oh , it's just one of them i don't understand.
yeah the grav cannon is wierd, and why the lascannon went down, even though there was a lascannon spam list that worked surprisingly well is also a headscratcher.
Even worse for the flammer, GL and stubber?
lIke why?

but then again we now got brimstones, conscripts, grots at the same point as IS.

like wtf is going on?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating.

Aye, they're not Dark Reapers (I don't know what they cost now). A 3W T4 3A is a model far more capable at defending itself than a 1W 1A T3 one.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

A squad of three has a Sergeant? What is he sergeant of, two other people? Is each of them a corporal with his own fireteam of no-one? I guess that's par for the course for GW, I just forgot it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It might as well be zero at the price point. They're literally almost the cost of 10 Tactical Marines but I'm not seeing anyone saying they have anything more than bad combat ability. So the claim "they hit back!!!1!" is honestly ludicrous and honestly embarrassing for anyone to claim.

Mea culpa- somewhere in this chain I mistook 3 attacks in the first round of combat for 3 attacks base like Aggressors, which put them pretty close to the same number of attacks as 8 Tacticals (same cost in 9th) in the first round, and actually more attacks in subsequent rounds.

Yeah, I agree that their melee ability is pretty bad. I still think their general vulnerability is being overstated, though. Even if they can't kill interdicting chaff units in melee, they don't really have to worry about Guardsmen clubbing them to death before they can fall back or Rapid Firing them off the board, which is more than you can say about Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, Melta Scions, or even the tougher AT infantry like Retributors or Devastators.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Marines aren't going to take either, tbf. You'll take Eradicators and Inceptors, you're not actually taking melta and plasma. The price of a plasma gun vs a melta gun is largely irrelevant as the only imperial forces who take a lot of them either always take plasma regardless because they're deepstriking in a way that negates the killing yourself drawback of plasma(scions) or always take melta because they don't have plasma(sisters).

ERJAK wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Marines aren't going to take either, tbf. You'll take Eradicators and Inceptors, you're not actually taking melta and plasma. The price of a plasma gun vs a melta gun is largely irrelevant as the only imperial forces who take a lot of them either always take plasma regardless because they're deepstriking in a way that negates the killing yourself drawback of plasma(scions) or always take melta because they don't have plasma(sisters).

I don't use Primaris so I'll be skipping Eradicators etc. Plasma and Melta for me.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating.

Aye, they're not Dark Reapers (I don't know what they cost now). A 3W T4 3A is a model far more capable at defending itself than a 1W 1A T3 one.

T5 (Gravis armor is +1W, +1T). 2A base, +1 for Sarge, +1 to each for being charged (or charging).

Reapers seem to be 35 points a model, so just about what they cost at the very beginning of 8th (5+31) in the index.

Voss wrote:

T5 (Gravis armor is +1W, +1T). 2A base, +1 for Sarge, +1 to each for being charged (or charging).

Reapers seem to be 35 points a model, so just about what they cost at the very beginning of 8th (5+31) in the index.

Aye, miss-typed T4 instead of 5. I know the 3A isn't "natural", but it's rare I see a CC go for more than a round.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Voss wrote:

T5 (Gravis armor is +1W, +1T). 2A base, +1 for Sarge, +1 to each for being charged (or charging).

Reapers seem to be 35 points a model, so just about what they cost at the very beginning of 8th (5+31) in the index.

Aye, miss-typed T4 instead of 5. I know the 3A isn't "natural", but it's rare I see a CC go for more than a round.

Or without just falling back for free!

Playtester Tony Kopach on playtesting 9th edition points costs, paraphrasing (from AoW40k podcast - don't think it's out for non-patreons yet):

"Yeah, DE got screwed. I got nothin' to explain 9 point warriors. You'll probably need to look outside your codex for competitive success."

Lol. Very reassuring.

Also: "Eradicators A++ unit, absolutely as good as they look on paper."


Nerf DE, buff SM - hallelujah, what we were all calling out for. Gee-dubs has this balance thing down.

ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Marines aren't going to take either, tbf. You'll take Eradicators and Inceptors, you're not actually taking melta and plasma. The price of a plasma gun vs a melta gun is largely irrelevant as the only imperial forces who take a lot of them either always take plasma regardless because they're deepstriking in a way that negates the killing yourself drawback of plasma(scions) or always take melta because they don't have plasma(sisters).

No, I assure you that my SW, DA, & Mentor forces will still be using the plasmas, meltas, & combi-plas/meltas I have modeled on them.

the_scotsman wrote:
Everything that anybody used in a fething tournament you decided to increase WAY WAY LESS than units nobody fething uses!

As I've been saying, this is 40K: Tournament Edition.

Give it an edition or two and we'll have the "Casual Gaming Mafia" edition, where they eliminate points, PL and even objective scoring and have people roll-off to see who wins at the end of a game.

 Trickstick wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Given how much mouth frothing there is over the eradicators and then we get "melta could be free and is still bad because it's not plasma" appreciate the context is slightly different, but it's a massive double standard.

Melta rifles have double the range though, which is a huge advantage. There is generally a 9" limit on how close you can deploy from away from an enemy from reserves. This really hurts things like melta scions, as they don't get the full advantage that melta provides. A 12" melta range fixes this.

Not at all, if I run Melta Scion squads, they will be in an Iotan Gorgonnes detachment so I can deploy them with Daring Descent, and setup 5" away from a target.

Alternatively I can run them with the Kappic Eagles detachment and have them inside a Valkyrie, then use the Grav Chute rule to disembark then move into range.

 Slayer6 wrote:
Not at all, if I run Melta Scion squads, they will be in an Iotan Gorgonnes detachment so I can deploy them with Daring Descent, and setup 5" away from a target.

Alternatively I can run them with the Kappic Eagles detachment and have them inside a Valkyrie, then use the Grav Chute rule to disembark then move into range.

Yes, hence "generally".

Tony Kopach again: "Eldar: like a lot of armies, most of the weakest units got worse, while most of the better units stayed good."

Gee-dubs: "nailed it!"

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
with plasma beeing equal to melta i fail to see the place of normal melta though.

From my perspective, the maximum damage is higher, and it can be really handy for toasting character type models or single big that get near/into my lines. Playing UM tactics I wind up backing out of assaults and shooting at various units like the old Custodes Shield Captains or Daemon Princes, and having a couple short ranged, high damage output sorts of weapons is very useful, moreso as they don't kill my models on the overcharge with a -1 to hit. The -4 AP is under appreciated a bit I think, too. Completely negating a 3+ save or being able to ignore cover bonuses is good. Combi-Meltas will be especially useful on Pack Characters too.

i can see where you are coming from, but these priced at the same point is still something i can't think off as making sense.

Requiring you to risk killing your own model to get high damage out of your Plasmagun is definitely part of that calculation. Costing the same or similar makes a lot of sense to me.

If you really want a headscratcher ask why the Grav Cannon costs the same as the Plasmagun and Meltagun. Like, are they nerfing it or something?

oh , it's just one of them i don't understand.
yeah the grav cannon is wierd, and why the lascannon went down, even though there was a lascannon spam list that worked surprisingly well is also a headscratcher.
Even worse for the flammer, GL and stubber?
lIke why?

but then again we now got brimstones, conscripts, grots at the same point as IS.

like wtf is going on?

The reason is simple. Conformity.
Minimum unit cost is 5. Doesn't matter how bad it is. Why 5? Because it multiplies well I guess.
Standardise guns. All the separate options for a squad are 5 points. But a grenade launcher isn't equal to a plasma gun? Doesn't matter. 5 points for everything.
5 point bolters/bolt pistols/storm bolters was apparently to much even for GW so they made them 2/3 points.

Don't think for even a moment that outside of a few key units (like maybe Thunderfire cannons ect) that any of the adjustments in 9th edition are done for balance.

Well that i understand, but why go away from the pts value that gotten okay finetuned over 8th Edition , (ok ok somewhat) and then throw this out,?

Does gw think we are too stupid to realise this? Or are we again used as playing Beta testers!

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well that i understand, but why go away from the pts value that gotten okay finetuned over 8th Edition , (ok ok somewhat) and then throw this out,?

When you look at the CA19 points costs you see that some of the changes from CA18 have been completely ignored. It seems that when someone does a new set of points, part of the process is forgetting about the previous points changes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating.

Aye, they're not Dark Reapers (I don't know what they cost now). A 3W T4 3A is a model far more capable at defending itself than a 1W 1A T3 one.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

A squad of three has a Sergeant? What is he sergeant of, two other people? Is each of them a corporal with his own fireteam of no-one? I guess that's par for the course for GW, I just forgot it.

Bike Squads do the same thing, if it makes you feel any better .

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well that i understand, but why go away from the pts value that gotten okay finetuned over 8th Edition , (ok ok somewhat) and then throw this out,?

Does gw think we are too stupid to realise this? Or are we again used as playing Beta testers!

I think its simply a case of "screw it, they will buy it anyway and we will fix it later".

Now I don't have a problem with doing a rough pass on points and then tweaking it later when you get a ton of data from people actually playing with it. But I wouldn't charge people for that privilege.