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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well that i understand, but why go away from the pts value that gotten okay finetuned over 8th Edition , (ok ok somewhat) and then throw this out,?

When you look at the CA19 points costs you see that some of the changes from CA18 have been completely ignored. It seems that when someone does a new set of points, part of the process is forgetting about the previous points changes.

No i was Ware of that , mostly due to fw changes beeing reverted from 18 torwards 19 which Lead me to believe that they either list the doccument or habe a Drink intern work it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating.

Aye, they're not Dark Reapers (I don't know what they cost now). A 3W T4 3A is a model far more capable at defending itself than a 1W 1A T3 one.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

A squad of three has a Sergeant? What is he sergeant of, two other people? Is each of them a corporal with his own fireteam of no-one? I guess that's par for the course for GW, I just forgot it.

Bike Squads do the same thing, if it makes you feel any better .

 Ordana wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well that i understand, but why go away from the pts value that gotten okay finetuned over 8th Edition , (ok ok somewhat) and then throw this out,?

Does gw think we are too stupid to realise this? Or are we again used as playing Beta testers!

I think its simply a case of "screw it, they will buy it anyway and we will fix it later".

Now I don't have a problem with doing a rough pass on points and then tweaking it later when you get a ton of data from people actually playing with it. But I wouldn't charge people for that privilege.

Yeah, they'll "fix it later", when everyone gets their new 9th edition codex. Want good points and rules? Better buy that new codex! This is a way to reset everything back to index status without invalidating any existing books. Except loyalists of course. Even their fw units were escaped relatively unscathed.

The proof is that they released FAQS for the Forge World Indexes. Why would they release a FAQ for books that are no longer available and soon to be superseded by new ones? Because those FAQS are for playing those units with the old rules and these new points. Want good rules and points for your fw stuff? Better buy those new fw books.

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

I fail to see why someone wouldn't buy the codex when it comes out. For everyone else there's battlescribe. If they hadn't reset the points do you think people wouldn't have bought the codex? New units are what sells a book - good or bad.

FW got faq'd, because those are books that exist and can still be used until new ones arrived. Otherwise you're playing with rules that don't work correctly with the new edition.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

Joke's on them, never bought a single 8th ed codex and probably wont bother with the 9th ed ones either

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

Joke's on them, never bought a single 8th ed codex and probably wont bother with the 9th ed ones either

And honestly it's fething scummy they're gonna charge full price for those codices with all the crap they just released for 8th that is only half compatible with 9th.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

I fail to see why someone wouldn't buy the codex when it comes out. For everyone else there's battlescribe. If they hadn't reset the points do you think people wouldn't have bought the codex? New units are what sells a book - good or bad.

FW got faq'd, because those are books that exist and can still be used until new ones arrived. Otherwise you're playing with rules that don't work correctly with the new edition.

Of course you'll want a new codex when it is released, because if you want to play 9th edition then you need a 9th edition codex if it exists for your faction. But that new codex will be so much better because this points update isn't about balance, it's about resetting everything. Everyone starts over again even with their existing codexes. Do you actually think this is about balance? Meltas, plasma, and flamers the same price? Same for guardsmen, grots, and brimstones? No, it's a reset at the start of a new edition, same as the indexes were at the start of 8th, but you still have codexes. It's a reset that gives them room to bring things back down, that's why the 5 point minimum for almost everything.

No, it isn't a nefarious plot to get you to buy a new codex, you'd do that anyway. It's a reset until those codexes are released. It has nothing to do with balance. That's why it seems so insane. They don't care if it's balanced or not, as long as it gives them room to work with for the new codexes. That's why I'm no longer worried about discrepancies in individual units, it doesn't matter, these points were made just to be changed.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

I fail to see why someone wouldn't buy the codex when it comes out. For everyone else there's battlescribe. If they hadn't reset the points do you think people wouldn't have bought the codex? New units are what sells a book - good or bad.

FW got faq'd, because those are books that exist and can still be used until new ones arrived. Otherwise you're playing with rules that don't work correctly with the new edition.

Of course you'll want a new codex when it is released, because if you want to play 9th edition then you need a 9th edition codex if it exists for your faction. But that new codex will be so much better because this points update isn't about balance, it's about resetting everything. Everyone starts over again even with their existing codexes. Do you actually think this is about balance? Meltas, plasma, and flamers the same price? Same for guardsmen, grots, and brimstones? No, it's a reset at the start of a new edition, same as the indexes were at the start of 8th, but you still have codexes. It's a reset that gives them room to bring things back down, that's why the 5 point minimum for almost everything.

No, it isn't a nefarious plot to get you to buy a new codex, you'd do that anyway. It's a reset until those codexes are released. It has nothing to do with balance. That's why it seems so insane. They don't care if it's balanced or not, as long as it gives them room to work with for the new codexes. That's why I'm no longer worried about discrepancies in individual units, it doesn't matter, these points were made just to be changed.

Which is fething gakky for sisters considering their codex is coming out 4 months before 10th hits and does it all again.

Charging money for rules is kind of outdated when you look at the rest of the tabletop games outside GW. One page rules is a thing too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... I feel like detachments are about to become the new formations, as command benefits may tie into that. Refunding cp if your warlord is in the detachment can’t be everything they plan on doing with that slot...

ERJAK wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

I fail to see why someone wouldn't buy the codex when it comes out. For everyone else there's battlescribe. If they hadn't reset the points do you think people wouldn't have bought the codex? New units are what sells a book - good or bad.

FW got faq'd, because those are books that exist and can still be used until new ones arrived. Otherwise you're playing with rules that don't work correctly with the new edition.

Of course you'll want a new codex when it is released, because if you want to play 9th edition then you need a 9th edition codex if it exists for your faction. But that new codex will be so much better because this points update isn't about balance, it's about resetting everything. Everyone starts over again even with their existing codexes. Do you actually think this is about balance? Meltas, plasma, and flamers the same price? Same for guardsmen, grots, and brimstones? No, it's a reset at the start of a new edition, same as the indexes were at the start of 8th, but you still have codexes. It's a reset that gives them room to bring things back down, that's why the 5 point minimum for almost everything.

No, it isn't a nefarious plot to get you to buy a new codex, you'd do that anyway. It's a reset until those codexes are released. It has nothing to do with balance. That's why it seems so insane. They don't care if it's balanced or not, as long as it gives them room to work with for the new codexes. That's why I'm no longer worried about discrepancies in individual units, it doesn't matter, these points were made just to be changed.

Which is fething gakky for sisters considering their codex is coming out 4 months before 10th hits and does it all again.

SOB points will most likely be fixed once gw actually starts taking balance into consideration, probably in a FAQ or ca. But yeah, it's pretty gakky. There were better ways to do this. They could have raised everything equally across the board, though that would have been hard with models with points in the single digits. Or better yet, they could have actually taken balance into consideration, unfortunately it doesn't seem they did.

macluvin wrote:
Also... I feel like detachments are about to become the new formations, as command benefits may tie into that. Refunding cp if your warlord is in the detachment can’t be everything they plan on doing with that slot...

I think that's a good possibility. Special detachments could be introduced for factions in their codexes. Something like a Deathwing detachment for da that lets them load up on terminators without a cp penalty, or a mechanized guard detachment that does the same for heavy support. Not sure if I like the idea though.

I want armies to have their own unique detachments.

I also want them to do a "get you by" series of race-specific Crusade stuff, a bit like how they did some "get you by" stuff for un-updated Codices in CA2017, so that the custom Crusade stuff doesn't take forever to come out for everyone.

ERJAK wrote:
Which is fething gakky for sisters considering their codex is coming out 4 months before 10th hits and does it all again.

And they got left out of PA.

I hope sisters get a turn at the spot light since they did in the trailer... watch them feth this edition up too and switch to 10th edition in 3 years, leaving some other poor sod behind (money is on Eldar or Orks...) and fething over whoever had the recent codex and supplement releases... marines will get some other gak nobody asked for that will shift the meta... Just like how 8th began, and just like 9th... as before, so long after... at least 8th reimbursed legions suckers

So out of curiosity,

Who got screwed?

Here's the catch: Name an army you don't play that got screwed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I want armies to have their own unique detachments.

Gladius V2! Now with Primaris!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I want armies to have their own unique detachments.

Gladius V2! Now with Primaris!

That would be enough to make me threaten to quit the game for good, grumble for 2 weeks and go back to being GW’s gimp. Probably wouldn’t play any games with primarisigmarines like ever. “Hey look! Free repulsors for every troop!” >.<

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So out of curiosity,

Who got screwed?

Here's the catch: Name an army you don't play that got screwed.

Dark Eldar, GSC

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I want armies to have their own unique detachments.

Gladius V2! Now with Primaris!

I get what you're saying, but that wasn't what I really meant.

ERJAK wrote:
Dark Eldar, GSC

Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Dark Eldar, GSC

Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

Gsc is worse than before. We were flagging already, PA didn't really help at all, and then the extra costs added to some of our stuff is not helpful.

If you play melee GSC that is.

Shooty Cult makes off slightly better than the end of 8th, with -1 to hit cap, and access to guard vehicles/units.

IMO of course.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Dark Eldar, GSC

Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

Gsc is worse than before. We were flagging already, PA didn't really help at all, and then the extra costs added to some of our stuff is not helpful.

If you play melee GSC that is.

Shooty Cult makes off slightly better than the end of 8th, with -1 to hit cap, and access to guard vehicles/units.

IMO of course.

They never struck me as 'melee strong' in the first place. I always figured them as a 'shooting and harassing' army, and I've never seen them do well without guard vehicles.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Dark Eldar, GSC

Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

Gsc is worse than before. We were flagging already, PA didn't really help at all, and then the extra costs added to some of our stuff is not helpful.

If you play melee GSC that is.

Shooty Cult makes off slightly better than the end of 8th, with -1 to hit cap, and access to guard vehicles/units.

IMO of course.

They never struck me as 'melee strong' in the first place. I always figured them as a 'shooting and harassing' army, and I've never seen them do well without guard vehicles.

Disagree. A lot of GSC armies leaned heavily on Acolytes (melee or hand flamers), Abberrants(melee), and Jackals (for short ranged shooting and occasional melee screen). After the codex dropped, the only guard units I ever saw in GSC armies were mortars and Russes sporadically.

 Carnikang wrote:
Disagree. A lot of GSC armies leaned heavily on Acolytes (melee or hand flamers), Abberrants(melee), and Jackals (for short ranged shooting and occasional melee screen). After the codex dropped, the only guard units I ever saw in GSC armies were mortars and Russes sporadically.

Never saw anyone use those outside of Necromunda. Just my experience. May be different metas.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Disagree. A lot of GSC armies leaned heavily on Acolytes (melee or hand flamers), Abberrants(melee), and Jackals (for short ranged shooting and occasional melee screen). After the codex dropped, the only guard units I ever saw in GSC armies were mortars and Russes sporadically.

Never saw anyone use those outside of Necromunda. Just my experience. May be different metas.

Possibly. We have 4 GSC players locally, with Adepticon 3 hours away as the big draw. So moderately to mostly competitive lean, since a good few of our players go every year.

No one ever tried the bike spam list locally, though I really wanted to.

 Carnikang wrote:
Possibly. We have 4 GSC players locally, with Adepticon 3 hours away as the big draw. So moderately to mostly competitive lean, since a good few of our players go every year.

No one ever tried the bike spam list locally, though I really wanted to.

Lots of guard players here, but only a couple of them are competitive. Otherwise Marines of the loyalist and satan flavors, some Eldar and the like. A few Admech players that are pretty serious. Like one and a half sisters players.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Of course you'll want a new codex when it is released, because if you want to play 9th edition then you need a 9th edition codex if it exists for your faction. But that new codex will be so much better because this points update isn't about balance, it's about resetting everything. Everyone starts over again even with their existing codexes. Do you actually think this is about balance? Meltas, plasma, and flamers the same price? Same for guardsmen, grots, and brimstones? No, it's a reset at the start of a new edition, same as the indexes were at the start of 8th, but you still have codexes. It's a reset that gives them room to bring things back down, that's why the 5 point minimum for almost everything.

No, it isn't a nefarious plot to get you to buy a new codex, you'd do that anyway. It's a reset until those codexes are released. It has nothing to do with balance. That's why it seems so insane. They don't care if it's balanced or not, as long as it gives them room to work with for the new codexes. That's why I'm no longer worried about discrepancies in individual units, it doesn't matter, these points were made just to be changed.

Your logic seems circular. They changed the points so they can change the points. Why was a reset needed? Why couldn't they have used CA19 points and left them in that state and fumbled around as codexes popped out? How would that have been different from your proposed view?

Why separate infantry from vehicle costs if balance was not intended?
Why heavily target specific units if balance was not intended?

Of course points will change, but you need a level field to work from. What I see is that they've banded certain things. There is a ton of ambiguity about how units will really perform and be used under the new missions and banding will help isolate parts of the game. People have noticed how they folded weapon costs into the body for a lot of units. Why? It seems to me like they wanted to assess the whole model rather than just the body. Viewing the value of the body without weapons creates a difficult balance point - cheap bodies with lots of special weapons say hello.

Now you'll mentally assess an Immortal at 18 points instead of 8 when a warrior was 11. You can immediately determine that the Immortal must have some edge over a Necron Warrior without looking at a datasheet, right?

When melta was 14 and plasma was 11 what did you say? "Well, plasma is better and melta certainly isn't worth more than plasma. I have made an intelligent choice." Then you go out on the table, encounter a scenario where melta would have been nice, but you reassure yourself that plasma was the only smart option. What if instead the options were the same price? Then you're choosing the weapon for the role and not for the cost. You go out to the table and think, well, maybe it wouldn't be bad to have some melta. They are all the same cost after all.

Then at the same time GW can take that unit with folded weapon costs and assess their impact knowing that despite the player choices the cost won't deviate from X+5.

Of course I could be absolutely wrong, but time will tell.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnikang wrote:


Disagree. A lot of GSC armies leaned heavily on Acolytes (melee or hand flamers), Abberrants(melee), and Jackals (for short ranged shooting and occasional melee screen). After the codex dropped, the only guard units I ever saw in GSC armies were mortars and Russes sporadically.

The game just doesn't play the same. I can't stress that enough.

I don't play GSC so I can't assume I know how they'll do, but if I were allowed a guess - the ability to put large or strong units right into the face of your opponent on objectives makes for a potentially strong counter-play army.

We're moving to 2K this weekend. Hopefully the tournament missions leak on Friday.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

I fail to see why someone wouldn't buy the codex when it comes out. For everyone else there's battlescribe. If they hadn't reset the points do you think people wouldn't have bought the codex? New units are what sells a book - good or bad.

FW got faq'd, because those are books that exist and can still be used until new ones arrived. Otherwise you're playing with rules that don't work correctly with the new edition.

Of course you'll want a new codex when it is released, because if you want to play 9th edition then you need a 9th edition codex if it exists for your faction. But that new codex will be so much better because this points update isn't about balance, it's about resetting everything. Everyone starts over again even with their existing codexes. Do you actually think this is about balance? Meltas, plasma, and flamers the same price? Same for guardsmen, grots, and brimstones? No, it's a reset at the start of a new edition, same as the indexes were at the start of 8th, but you still have codexes. It's a reset that gives them room to bring things back down, that's why the 5 point minimum for almost everything.

No, it isn't a nefarious plot to get you to buy a new codex, you'd do that anyway. It's a reset until those codexes are released. It has nothing to do with balance. That's why it seems so insane. They don't care if it's balanced or not, as long as it gives them room to work with for the new codexes. That's why I'm no longer worried about discrepancies in individual units, it doesn't matter, these points were made just to be changed.

So problem solved. Run your forces using their final 8th ed costs. New units? Well, those use their 9th ed costs. When new codex arrives, all your units in that force now use their "real" (for the moment) pt cost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Getting tagged in melee is one of their big weaknesses, since they can't fire in melee, unlike tank-mounted AT. The 9 attacks at S4 AP - they get don't begin to compare to a tank's ability to fire into something tagging it.

The fact that they compare well to other infantry AT in combat is just another case of Primaris being better than everything at everybody. But better doesn't mean good.

But it does drop them in capability from Hyperspecialist to Specialist in my rating.

Aye, they're not Dark Reapers (I don't know what they cost now). A 3W T4 3A is a model far more capable at defending itself than a 1W 1A T3 one.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sergeant has an extra attack, so 10 total in the first round of CC.

A squad of three has a Sergeant? What is he sergeant of, two other people? Is each of them a corporal with his own fireteam of no-one? I guess that's par for the course for GW, I just forgot it.

Bike Squads do the same thing, if it makes you feel any better .

And Suppressors and Eliminators. I hate the God awful setup of "you get three and that's it".

Solution is easy: Don't play Primaris! Bike Squads get up to nine models.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Dark Eldar, GSC

Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

GSC were in a rough place already through repeated nerfs at the end of 8th.

Dark Eldar were a fairly solid army that provided a key ingredient in a bunch of eldar soup armies, that are not probably way less playable

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Worse than they were before, or just 'still kinda screwed'?

Drukhari were good for the first time in a long time in 8th, were part of some unpleasant Aeldari soup lists, and then after those got broken up were still good and fun as a standalone. Now Kabalites have gone up by 50%, and Venoms are more expensive than Quin Starweavers, so you will likely only see Covens and the board clogged with beast packs.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

These points have nothing to do with balance. They're just a way to reset everything back to index status so you want those new codexes when they are released.

Joke's on them, never bought a single 8th ed codex and probably wont bother with the 9th ed ones either

How about the PA books for your faction, or the yearly Chapter Approved updates?

More importantly, did you use any of the material from any of these books?