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Getting?!?

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Exactly. Now that former twin linked weapons have been re-written into getting 2x shots, re-rolls have no reason to exist and if GW eliminates them completely the game would be much more entertaining, other than faster.

 vipoid wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Full rerolls are actually rare and meaningful.

Only the SM have more of them, but they can do that because they are native BS3+, so the rerolls are less powerful than in the other factions.

Even when they bring full reroll hit and Lt rerolls, it is equivalent to a single full reroll hit of any BS4+ faction.

The problem is not that they have it, they problem is that it is too cheap.

I think you've misunderstood my point.

My complaint isn't that there are too many abilities that allow for full rerolls. My complaint is that there are too many 'reroll 1s' abilities, which amount to little more than dedicated time-wasting mechanics.

I would rather factions had access to single-target abilities that give full rerolls, rather than auras which waste everyone's time by making every unit around them reroll 1s.

I feel like this would be a good way to do away with the bubble re-roll mechanic and make units that have intrinsic re-rolls feel a lot more unique and slow the game down less. Plus it makes it a lot easier to balance as the number of units affected is a determinable number rather than just X.

A Reroll 1's bubble in a horde army is a lot harder to balance than a reroll 1's bubble in an army of specialists.

 Blackie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Exactly. Now that former twin linked weapons have been re-written into getting 2x shots, re-rolls have no reason to exist and if GW eliminates them completely the game would be much more entertaining, other than faster.

So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

Spoletta wrote:


So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

Well, my main army doesn't have re-rolling bubbles and with SW I could easily get rid of them without missing them so yeah I know I'd like it a lot. Many HQs' auras already don't provide re-rolls but some other kinds of buffs, so I don't see the issue if Archons, SM commanders, LTs and similar units have their aura replaced with something else that of couse shouldn't be +1 to hit or wound. But something like morale or defensive bonus, the removal of -1 to hit for infantries that carry heavy weapons, etc...

Spoletta wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Exactly. Now that former twin linked weapons have been re-written into getting 2x shots, re-rolls have no reason to exist and if GW eliminates them completely the game would be much more entertaining, other than faster.

So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

I actually miss my Hq's being beatsticks, my chaos lord sitting with some havocs saying nice things about their mothers to make them aim better seems less in character than him getting murdered trying to lop heads off on a whim.

 Blackie wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

Well, my main army doesn't have re-rolling bubbles and with SW I could easily get rid of them without missing them so yeah I know I'd like it a lot. Many HQs' auras already don't provide re-rolls but some other kinds of buffs, so I don't see the issue if Archons, SM commanders, LTs and similar units have their aura replaced with something else that of couse shouldn't be +1 to hit or wound. But something like morale or defensive bonus, the removal of -1 to hit for infantries that carry heavy weapons, etc...

"I don't use it so the game doesn't need it" isn't a good argument.

There are many factions which are based around offensive buffs, like T'au and CWE. I've tried thinking about other ways to implement offensive buffs, but they all end up being modifiers (which are bad), or still require to do something with dices, so they take extra time.

 Tristanleo wrote:
A Reroll 1's bubble in a horde army is a lot harder to balance than a reroll 1's bubble in an army of specialists.

That's wrong though. Specialists tend to able to affect many more points with their aura than hordes. Assuming the same efficiency between hordes and specialists per points spend, the specialists win out. In reality hordes tend to be less efficient than hordes, so they benefit more from re-roll ones - and most horde armies don't have access to such auras in the first place.

Spoletta wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Exactly. Now that former twin linked weapons have been re-written into getting 2x shots, re-rolls have no reason to exist and if GW eliminates them completely the game would be much more entertaining, other than faster.

So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

Only certain types of commanders

I am a master of the forge user. they are a very shooty stick, chaplains have the beating down. some guard commanders were vox link leadership commanders. logan grimnar was a beatstick in his own right but he was also a squad specializer. not all commanders are equal.

Spoletta wrote:


"I don't use it so the game doesn't need it" isn't a good argument.

There are many factions which are based around offensive buffs, like T'au and CWE. I've tried thinking about other ways to implement offensive buffs, but they all end up being modifiers (which are bad), or still require to do something with dices, so they take extra time.

Maybe, but players that rely extensively on re-roll have a biased perspective of the matter as well. They feel like they absolutely need them in order to have an efficient army while it's not true. Both Tau and CWE would have perfectly fine shooting without re-rolls.

Offensive buffs should be like: "allow infantry to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty", "ignore cover", "add 1 to damage characteristic against monsters or characters", "add +1S if target is within half range", etc.... all offensive buffs, all useful, but nothing gamebreaking.

Spoletta wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are surely time consuming, but what is the alternative?

Getting rid of them? We had 7 previous editions of the game where re-rolls were extremely rare to the point of being almost non-existent. There's no inherent reason why they have to exist at all.

Exactly. Now that former twin linked weapons have been re-written into getting 2x shots, re-rolls have no reason to exist and if GW eliminates them completely the game would be much more entertaining, other than faster.

So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

My proposal would be to remove Stratagems and instead go the AoS route, with most Characters having abilities that are activated with CPs (though I would aim for having more of these abilities available each turn, rather than the 1-2 favoured by AoS).

This would serve to give HQs a function beyond beatsticks, whilst also tying some Stratagem-type effects directly to the game. Instead of the current system where you might as well be getting extra bonuses based on a mid-match game of Yugioh.

 vipoid wrote:
...My proposal would be to remove Stratagems and instead go the AoS route, with most Characters having abilities that are activated with CPs (though I would aim for having more of these abilities available each turn, rather than the 1-2 favoured by AoS).

This would serve to give HQs a function beyond beatsticks, whilst also tying some Stratagem-type effects directly to the game. Instead of the current system where you might as well be getting extra bonuses based on a mid-match game of Yugioh.

Given the number of "special ability usable by one unit" stratagems you could even take it a step further and give some non-HQ units a CP-locked ability.

 Blackie wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


"I don't use it so the game doesn't need it" isn't a good argument.

There are many factions which are based around offensive buffs, like T'au and CWE. I've tried thinking about other ways to implement offensive buffs, but they all end up being modifiers (which are bad), or still require to do something with dices, so they take extra time.

Maybe, but players that rely extensively on re-roll have a biased perspective of the matter as well. They feel like they absolutely need them in order to have an efficient army while it's not true. Both Tau and CWE would have perfectly fine shooting without re-rolls.

CWE are an odd example, since they still have to pay to jump through various sub-system hoops (like the psychic phase) to get single unit buffs that other factions can now just pay to get all the time on multiple units.

 Blackie wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


"I don't use it so the game doesn't need it" isn't a good argument.

There are many factions which are based around offensive buffs, like T'au and CWE. I've tried thinking about other ways to implement offensive buffs, but they all end up being modifiers (which are bad), or still require to do something with dices, so they take extra time.

Maybe, but players that rely extensively on re-roll have a biased perspective of the matter as well. They feel like they absolutely need them in order to have an efficient army while it's not true. Both Tau and CWE would have perfectly fine shooting without re-rolls.

Offensive buffs should be like: "allow infantry to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty", "ignore cover", "add 1 to damage characteristic against monsters or characters", "add +1S if target is within half range", etc.... all offensive buffs, all useful, but nothing gamebreaking.

What aura are you refering too with Tau and CWE?

The Reroll aura Masters are Marines. Plenty of other factiosn have some aura.

The issue is when you can fit 1000 points "within 6inches" which does a lot more damage to game balance compaired to you get reroll 1's if you payed points and already hit the target or you pass a psychic test within x inches.

 warmaster21 wrote:
Stratagems were a good idea but terrible execution, 8th of course had the problem with not all armies had the same level of cp (fixed in 9th) which lead to strats being horribly unbalanced when someone was a scum and running loyal 32 and its varients and the other person wasnt.

on top of that a good chunk of strats were unit abilities that were stripped away and became strats, weakining said unit and units had to be pointed around assumign they had the start on them at all times (slaanesh oblits for example) terrible execution.

If strategems were something like pick X strats before the battle and thats it, you get to use each strat once per battle but they were game changers would have been far better.

its still a terrible idea when starts such as shoot twice, fight twice exist as the abusing units will get adjusted in points to assume they are always doing it while punishing people who dont abuse them that way, or the cp cost becomes so high its unusable.

Stratagems were a good idea, i agree. But they completely screwed it up early and often. For one, the index approach for kind of nice but sucked in a lot of ways, you didn't get any good stratagems until your codex got released which meant your army was left with over priced and under performing units. A great example of how Stratagems screwed up the game balance is Grotz. Nobody, literally NOBODY can explain to me how a grot is 5pts but a guardsmen with better stats across the board is 6pts. anytime you ask how that makes sense the answer inevitably rolls around to...."Grot shields is OP" Which, yeah its a good stratagem but not really OP as savior protocols or some other nifty strats but yeah I get it, 3pt ablative wounds for a useful unit is really good, especially when they can be camping objectives and/or acting as speed bumps. But without that strat are they really worth 5pts? are they worth 4? No, and in 8th they were overpriced at 3pts without that stratagem.

Strats unfortunately became mandatory for sub par units to become competitive. Take Ork Lootas. By themselves they suck, add in exploding 5s and shoot twice and the older mob up strat and suddenly they were hyper competitive and a must take in all ork lists. ironically they were the target for most Grot shield strats as well. But very few lists could hold up against 25 Lootas dumping 100 S7 shots a turn that explode on 5s and 6s and were either BS4 or had rerolling 1s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bosskelot wrote:
As usual the problem is with Marines. If you're not playing a game with Marines in it, things are much more enjoyable and the game doesn't drag on and slow to a crawl. Hell, I play Eldar and Necrons and have access to re-roll shenanigans but it doesn't effect game speed at all, because all of those are affecting one unit at a time and I'm outputting a very small amount of shots.

When a 40 model count army is the leading cause of long games in your system then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.

Well Marines absolutely went OP on auras but strats were a problem almost across the board.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
...My proposal would be to remove Stratagems and instead go the AoS route, with most Characters having abilities that are activated with CPs (though I would aim for having more of these abilities available each turn, rather than the 1-2 favoured by AoS).

This would serve to give HQs a function beyond beatsticks, whilst also tying some Stratagem-type effects directly to the game. Instead of the current system where you might as well be getting extra bonuses based on a mid-match game of Yugioh.

Given the number of "special ability usable by one unit" stratagems you could even take it a step further and give some non-HQ units a CP-locked ability.

Hmm, I hadn't actually considered that. Maybe something sergeants could do?

Though I'll admit I'm a little on the fence about it. Mainly because one of the things I dislike about Stratagems is that many of the single-unit ones seem to be stuff that should really be inherent abilities - rather than ones contingent on CPs.

Regardless, it's definitely something to keep in mind.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
...My proposal would be to remove Stratagems and instead go the AoS route, with most Characters having abilities that are activated with CPs (though I would aim for having more of these abilities available each turn, rather than the 1-2 favoured by AoS).

This would serve to give HQs a function beyond beatsticks, whilst also tying some Stratagem-type effects directly to the game. Instead of the current system where you might as well be getting extra bonuses based on a mid-match game of Yugioh.

Given the number of "special ability usable by one unit" stratagems you could even take it a step further and give some non-HQ units a CP-locked ability.

Agree, stratagems that only work for one type of unit should just be abilities on the datasheet. This would also prevent accidental spill-overs into stuff like FW dreads.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
It's gotten to the point where I zone out when my opponent rolls their hits; there's just no tension with those kind of odds. I liked previous editions without these rerolls better tbh.

I'm the same. When my marine opponent starts rolling to hit, it just feels like a bit of a waste of time - you might as well just give the 2+ reroll everything dude autohits and spare us the time...

Every so often, when the moon is blue and a chilly breeze wafts through hell, he informs me that he missed, and I have to quickly gather myself back to the game to register this most unusual fact. Then it's the next units turn to shoot, and my unit dies anyway.

Ice_can wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


"I don't use it so the game doesn't need it" isn't a good argument.

There are many factions which are based around offensive buffs, like T'au and CWE. I've tried thinking about other ways to implement offensive buffs, but they all end up being modifiers (which are bad), or still require to do something with dices, so they take extra time.

Maybe, but players that rely extensively on re-roll have a biased perspective of the matter as well. They feel like they absolutely need them in order to have an efficient army while it's not true. Both Tau and CWE would have perfectly fine shooting without re-rolls.

Offensive buffs should be like: "allow infantry to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty", "ignore cover", "add 1 to damage characteristic against monsters or characters", "add +1S if target is within half range", etc.... all offensive buffs, all useful, but nothing gamebreaking.

What aura are you refering too with Tau and CWE?

The Reroll aura Masters are Marines. Plenty of other factiosn have some aura.

The issue is when you can fit 1000 points "within 6inches" which does a lot more damage to game balance compaired to you get reroll 1's if you payed points and already hit the target or you pass a psychic test within x inches.

We are getting off track here.

This discussion wasn't about balance. It was about the rerolls being time consuming.

The rerolls (and especially RR1) have the massive advantage of giving the same bonus to every model, irrespective of stats or wargear. This is something that only the rerolls do as a mathematical solution.
This makes them great for generic leaders like LTs, which should be in any kind of force, not one specialized in this or specialized in that. All other buffs advantage some kind of models more than others.
The massive drawback of that, is that they take longer to resolve.

Spoletta wrote:
.

...All other buffs advantage some kind of models more than others.

Just wanted to pick up on this specifically. Why is this a bad thing? Assuming the buff doesn't overpower the unit in question (which is a question of balance rather than mechanic) why is some sort of more specific, targeted buff bad? I'd think a buff that can be good or mediocre depending on where it is deployed gives the player a chance to have some meaningful input into the effectiveness of the buff. One of the big problems with reroll auras is how brainless they are to "use": just have one model from a unit standing vaguely close to a couple of guys.

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
.

...All other buffs advantage some kind of models more than others.

Just wanted to pick up on this specifically. Why is this a bad thing?

It isn't. Re-roll auras like SM ones are dull, stupid and eventually overpowered other than time consuming. Buffs that give advantage only to specific units require more skills from the players and decisions to make. The game would improve on any possible level without re-roll auras.

 Blackie wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
.

...All other buffs advantage some kind of models more than others.

Just wanted to pick up on this specifically. Why is this a bad thing?

It isn't. Re-roll auras like SM ones are dull, stupid and eventually overpowered other than time consuming. Buffs that give advantage only to specific units require more skills from the players and decisions to make. The game would improve on any possible level without re-roll auras.

It isn't on a themed officer.

A stormtrooper officer being better at leading stormtroopers, makes sense.

A marine Lt that is better at directing dreadnaugts than land speeders, isn't.
You need both the dedicated and the general purpose buffs, this is a fact. Designing dedicated buffs is easy. Designing a general purpose buff is much harder, and the only real one that I can think of is RR1 or some other form or result based mechanic like double hit on 6.

Spoletta wrote:

You need both the dedicated and the general purpose buffs, this is a fact.

It really isn't. There's no requirement to have any buffs whatsoever, never mind for them to be split into dedicated and general purpose.

Even if you do want to have buffs from characters there are lots of better ways to do it than the current method.

They could completely change the way rerolls are given by using the command phase. Using SM as basic example, a captain could give reroll 1s to hit to a single unit (chosen in command phase), a Chapter Master to 2 units, an Lt reroll wounds of 1 to a unit etc. Single units within a certain range of the commander. However, this is just one of several "command abilities" a character could choose from, and the different types could depend on faction. Some help to boost a character's melee ability, some help to improve other units (reroll ability as normal), and some more strategic (works with CPs etc). This way you reduce the number of rerolls allowed, give more character to your characters, and make the command phase actually meaningful. You would have to decide in list building exactly what type of character you would want to use.

We are getting off track here.

This discussion wasn't about balance. It was about the rerolls being time consuming

Yep and they very much are, players are quite literally getting to do their shooting phase all over again for every unit all the time.

Before you rolled what you got and thems the breaks, sometimes the dice averaged out sometimes they rolled crazy either hot or cold. no command point or aura re-rolls, no twin weapons for massed fire(for even more re-rolls). it was way faster.

I am happy when i am playing 5th because i don't have to deal with any of this gak slowing the game down.

Spoletta wrote:
So you are proposing of removing all forms of buffs to those rolls from the game?

That would restrict the design space quite a bit and turn commanders into melee beatsticks again. I'm not sure I would like it.

That's an incredibly narrow-minded take.

Possible things characters could do in a game with no rerolls whatsoever:
-Have innate shooting ability.
-Have innate melee ability.
-Buff the leadership of nearby troops.
-Add bonuses to hit rolls on nearby troops.
-Add bonuses to wound rolls on nearby troops.
-Allow nearby troops to ignore cover.
-Debuff nearby enemies (eg Ld debuff, to-hit penalty).
-Grant CP for the army.
-Generate CP for the army each turn.
-Allow special deployment for certain units.
-Force out Deep Strike/Reserves to a larger radius.
-Allow friendly Deep Strike/Reserves to come in near the commander, even within the normal limits imposed by enemy troops.
-Allow nearby units to fight first in melee.
-Allow nearby units to fire Overwatch without spending CP.
-Add bonuses to Advance rolls on nearby troops.
-Allow nearby troops to Advance and shoot without penalty.
-Add bonuses to Charge rolls on nearby troops.
-Add a FNP roll to nearby troops.

Those are just random ideas off the top of my head for what characters could be doing beyond the utterly mindless, boring, 'shoot a little better when you're near him' that most of them currently provide. Even that effect could still be replicated as a flat bonus to your rolls, rather than re-rolls (although it would need to be balanced differently).

If the removal of re-rolls forced GW to come up with thematic, fitting, unique and interesting rules for commanders- abilities that would give them distinct flavor and playstyles- I would consider that a win-win.

^The typical Nid character version is so much cleaner than Rerolls. Tyranid Prime gives a +1 to Hit rolls for nearby Warriors. Shooting is so much faster. Same with OOE and the Broodlord. I think the Tervigon gives reroll 1's to Gants though.

They're often too powerful and slow things down, but when everything's so deadly, such as with units that shoot or fight twice for whatever reason, you need them just to keep up. There really should be fewer attacks/shots flying about in general, with corresponding fewer wounds to match. Between re-rolls, +1's and everyone having twice as many wounds as they used to it just means a lot more bookeeping, which is the least exciting part about 40k.

Those are just random ideas off the top of my head for what characters could be doing beyond the utterly mindless, boring, 'shoot a little better when you're near him' that most of them currently provide. Even that effect could still be replicated as a flat bonus to your rolls, rather than re-rolls (although it would need to be balanced differently).

But marines characters already do that on top of being psykers, chaplains or captin. Not every captin is a jump pack or bike hammer guy, some have master crafted bolt rifles to plink stuff from afar. Pushing deep strikers away is done by some of the venguard units, unit buffing is done by chaplains and librarians, and CP regain is done by taking relics or warlord traits, if I remember correctly.