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 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DG and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How does that really mobilize a massive amount of ressources ? Reprinting datasheet does not cost anything, it's just a filler and it doesn't prevent GW from producing anything for xenos, that's a dumb argument. Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.

I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.

I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.

I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?

Seriously - count all the duplicate pages of rules in what was supposed to be a Campaign book - and consider waht lore, new rules, art or in fact anything else that could have been in their place but was not because the books had to be filled up with duplicates because Wolves and Angels.

Then consider that every time they made anything for the 997 other Marine Chapters they had to go - oh yeah we need to spend time and resources making rules and sometimes versions for Wolves and Angels. time and respouces that could not be spent on any other Marines, Imperial or Xenos.

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.

I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?

Seriously - count all the duplicate pages of rules in what was supposed to be a Campaign book - and consider waht lore, new rules, art or in fact anything else that could have been in their place but was not because the books had to be filled up with duplicates because Wolves and Angels.

Then consider that every time they made anything for the 997 other Marine Chapters they had to go - oh yeah we need to spend time and resources making rules and sometimes versions for Wolves and Angels. time and respouces that could not be spent on any other Marines, Imperial or Xenos.

How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense. It took five minutes to copy paste those datasheet, nothing more.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years, or about the two, and now three codexes they get, plus the 6 supplement (soon 9 !). I play DA and I'm bothered about all those release. Just stop, I hate playing an army that has no stablity and that change entirely every six month.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.

And how many of those Elite choices are things that could be condensed?
We didn't need Assault and Terminator Squads. Arguably, we didn't even need the Tartaros or Cataphractii Squads.
We didn't need Ironclad. Venerable, and standard Dreadnoughts as separate entries.
We didn't need Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans as separate entries.
We didn't need Assault and Devastator(who, admittedly, are Heavy Support not Elites) Centurions as separate entries.

There's a lot of real examples of bloat in the book, and the Elite section is a good place to look at.

I'm actually on board for a consolidated Terminator profile. I'd also be for getting rid of the Ironclad entry for just the options being available in the basic profile, with Ven just being an upgraded profile (so all still one page). I'm also VERY on board for consolidated Centurions. However I'd keep Sternguard and Vanguard separate entries as I would want Sternguard being BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ (with Terminators getting both).

More the point of my post was that how much more variety can someone want when we have several unit entries that need to be combined in the first place.

Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years

#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!

 Mr Morden wrote:

Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years

#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!

It's false, all those PA books were fillers. It didn't cost anything for GW to produce those, aside from the few mini. You're making so sense at all, just focus and use your brain. Did you even buy one PA ?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years

#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!

You seem to be working under the assumption that, if those pages weren't there, then other material would've been produced to fill them.

That's not guaranteed - as WhiteDog has pointed out, virtually no Studio time will have gone into the reprints, though a little will have been required for amended/new ones (such as the variant Chaplains, for example). We could just have ended up with shorter books, or even a reshuffle of who went where, and one less book overall.

Virtually any other material that could've replaced them would've needed more time from the Design Studio (or the art team), with the possible exception of including the Harlequin and Deathwatch content that ended up in White Dwarf - and in the case of the latter, you'd've complained about more Marine content. Again.

Personally, I think the BA/DA/SW updates for the duplicate datasheets should've been released as a PDF when SM 2.0 was released, with any new or amended datasheets (like the Wolf Priest or Sang Priest) being covered in the PA books, but that's just me.

What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.

Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...

BA are, but don't get the vanilla units.

WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.

All the command structure and line troops are the same, except for the Legend Olmarines, which are not relevant to GW anymore.

 Dysartes wrote:
Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...

That's not the reason why Grey Knights get an exception. They get an exception because Grey Knights don't use primaris.

This change was long overdue, and I for one am happy that GW is finally pushing for a "one main codex, supplements for variations, just one stand-alone exception book" approach.

My biggest headscratcher is the choice on some of those supplement choices. I completely get Grey Knights deserving a book of their own, they are that far off the CA it is not even funny. But where exactly are Deathwatch and Space Wolves close enough to the CA? Yeah, both have access to (almost) the complete range of SM miniatures, but the variations in rules and background terms are pretty substantial. In my opinion both of these would benefit of a book of their own.

On the other end of the spectrum are BA and DA, who never should have gotten a massive codex of their own to begin with. Their unique units, special rules and background are perfectly handled by a supplement book.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.

It makes sense in the historical context of the setting. The First Legion were armed with equipment that would be unfamilar to Mars, in case they would have to fight them.

And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

Martel732 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

All it would do is make the former DW GK SW players play Black/Silver/BlueGrey Vanilla Marines.

That's quite likely.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...

That's not the reason why Grey Knights get an exception. They get an exception because Grey Knights don't use primaris.

I'm merely pointing out that the reason given in the WHC article announcing this SNAFU makes that claim (see the footnote), and it makes no Emperor-damned sense.

Martel732 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.

"At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.'

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.

The fact is, Marines are GW's most popular army, squatting varient armies won't do anything, if Space Wolves cease to exist you won't suddenly see more people playing Eldar. (you might however see less people PLAYING 40k)

I BTW voted no on the poll, I don't object to this merger totally, IF DONE RIGHT but I'm not confidant GW'll do a veyr good job of this.

Martel732 wrote:
"At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.'

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.

Your view is pretty aggressively gakky to be fair. Good thing you'll never get what you want.

As far as the thread: good.

For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.

But I'm not a punk bitch.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.

It's the admech that build stormtalon and stormhawk and form the pilots that goes with it. It's what the ad mech does : they have a monopoly on many things and they also do what they need to to keep that monopoly (like, for exemple, asking techmarines to take an oath of loyalty to mars).
The DA found the STCs for the nephilim and the dark talon, build them and form their own pilots. It's a way to prevent mars from getting too much information on what the DA are doing (even in the third edition DA codex, I believe, there is an entire paragraph on the position of techmarine on the Rock and on the fact that, while they have an important role, many things are hidden from them because they are loyal to mars). It's old lore.

Martel732 wrote:

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

No you wouldnt. You'd find an excuse as to why your particular choice power armor is deserving of preservation while everyone else can feth off.

In other words, precisely what you're doing in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.

Very, very few other posters are dropping opinions like "nobody else should even have the choice to play the factions I dont like".

Martel732 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

Even if GW squats them there wouldn't be less power armor lists, just less variety in those lists, which is even worse. People that own DW, GK, etc would just run their armies as space marines.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.

"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

Even if GW squats them there wouldn't be less power armor lists, just less variety in those lists, which is even worse. People that own DW, GK, etc would just run their armies as space marines.

Yeah, now that I think about it, that's probably true. feth power armor oversaturation. Of course, they made an entire game about power armor vs power armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.

No you wouldnt. You'd find an excuse as to why your particular choice power armor is deserving of preservation while everyone else can feth off.

In other words, precisely what you're doing in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.

Very, very few other posters are dropping opinions like "nobody else should even have the choice to play the factions I dont like".

I've said more than once GW should have used the Nids to squat the BA, so the event was actually meaningful. As it stands, the invasion of Baal meant nothing. It would have been delicious for Dante to die a meaningless death to a bug. GK shouldn't exist outside daemonhunters if at all, DW plain just shouldn't exist, and SW have become a mockery of themselves.