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Jimbobbyish wrote:
Admittedly a lot of the space wolf names for things is silly.

Sadly, and as much as certain people like to pretend it isn't a thing, that's the unfortunate result of Flanderisation. It's really hit the Woofs far more than any other army in 40K. Blood Angels have a bit of it, but it got toned down. Sadly GW went all in for the Wolves, giving us "Murderfang" and a host of other absurd miniatures/units.

Maybe they'll veer back towards a more Viking style or at least a better balance of the two when their supplement comes around.

I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?

 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?

No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).

Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.

Because they are stupid units with stupid fluff. And wulfen are better than all 8 of my cc elements, so why bother with ba at all. Thats why.

Martel732 wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.

Because they are stupid units with stupid fluff. And wulfen are better than all 8 of my cc elements, so why bother with ba at all. Thats why.

I don't know, I actually kinda like the Fenrisian wolves. They're attack dogs, which actually have a history in real life warfare. I've used 48 of them since the 3rd edition eye of terror codex came out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?

No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).

Also 2 fliers, razorback, Librarian, techmarines. I think that if they did include them it would have almost been mandatory to give them Primaris, and I don't think they are quite ready to cross that line yet.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?

No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).

Also 2 fliers, razorback, Librarian, techmarines. I think that if they did include them it would have almost been mandatory to give them Primaris, and I don't think they are quite ready to cross that line yet.

To nitpick, I wouldn't say the Techmarines are shared because they are Psykers when they are Grey Knights, and their Librarians have different wargear, but yeah other than a handful of vehicles/transports, they don't really share anything with Vanilla Marines.

I posted about this new ultimate SM book more than a month ago now. But since it’s now official that supplements like Ultramarines or Iron Hands will stay legal, it’s not really that big of a change for those factions. Full codex chapters look to be getting the most immediate changes, because they’ll be stuck waiting for their supplement for the time being.

Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/

Yeah, for both non loyalists players who are sick of seeing release after release of new loyalist models and rules while their factions languish, and for loyalists players who have to buy a new codex within a year or less than the last one. People like to point out that it's been slightly more than a year since Loyalist Dogs 2.0, but it's entirely possible that someone bought that codex far more recently than that, only to find out that it will soon be obsolete. That's gotta sting.

Instead of lamenting that there is yet another Marine codex coming out, you could see it as a bonus release along the new Necrons.

With Loyalists out of the way within the first 3 months (and the Xenos release schedule didn't even suffer for it), we hopefully have more time for other factions.

Historically the first few books in an edition are on a lower power level as well, as the design team is learning and trying out new things with later releases.

So win win for all non loyalists?

I like that the SM stuff is getting rolled into one codex, but I do think the new Codex is too soon after the last. Hopefully this will address how over-powered they are though.

I like that there will be new supplements for the chapters getting rolled into this one (SW, BA etc) but am disappointed that the supplements for the other chapters aren't getting re-done.

If they are making a new SM codex they really should re-do the supplements too I think, my biggest issue with this is how the new 40k app will work with it.

I can download the free app and not subscribe, buy the new SM codex and scan/input a code to access the codex in the app. So far so good. I can then buy a new supplement eg BA and access that in the app.

However, if I want to run one of the other chapters: UM, RG, IH IF etc in order to access their rules in the app I need to pay the monthly subscription!! AFAIK that's the only way to access rules etc from 8th until those rules are invalid. Not happy about this at all.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/

Yeah, for both non loyalists players who are sick of seeing release after release of new loyalist models and rules while their factions languish, and for loyalists players who have to buy a new codex within a year or less than the last one. People like to point out that it's been slightly more than a year since Loyalist Dogs 2.0, but it's entirely possible that someone bought that codex far more recently than that, only to find out that it will soon be obsolete. That's gotta sting.

The preview of random hqs worried me for this reason, my sisters book is 8-9 months old (general release). It will eventually get a 9th version and with a new hq on the way that's an easy excuse to segway into replacing it. But everyone with a later PA book is in the same boat. New admech and DG models, again makes sense to release them with the codex.

if they go back to limiting HQ options, then oyu bet your ass they want to resqueze you for a new book with new HQ options.

Good for them seeing as their margines for them are clearly higher then even their plastic, considering they print the stuff in china and the general care they invest into the most baseline proofreading of the dexes themselves.

Martel732 wrote:
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.

Need is a big word. SM didn't need new releases in 8th and they definitely didn't need new releases in 9th, and yet more and more new units of SM.

Unique units help keeping some variety in the game. Otherwise we'd all just play the same army and I'd never want to play a light grey SM army that has just the chapter trait as the only difference from other chapters.

From my perspective, as a SW player, I didn't need to buy two codexes to play my army, I didn't need to pay for rules about factions I'd never play and I didn't need to buy any of the primaris releases. I'd rather have all the primaris roster squatted, and relegate them to open play like Grukk and Goffs Rockers (in fact I honestly think that they should be there), if that means keeping SW unique units.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed.
The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.

I don't care about there being more models.

More models is good!

Personally I'd prefer it if the release were more equally distributed in order to prevent that the SM get ten time what other factions get. I'm getting bored with the rate of release of the SM faction and as a CSM player, I'm still a bit bothered that there are no new oblit kit a year after, while the SM got two codexes and god knows how many kit.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits.
And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes.
Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.

Primaris are a related but separate problem - they're replacing, by duplicating, the classic Marines line.

Although the number of Primaris units which are essentially variations on dudes with slightly different boltguns is also pretty absurd.

The problem of rules bloat predates Primaris significantly though.

Variant Marines are absolutely responsible for bloat.

Lets add a flier to the Space Marine list. Great idea!

...or we could add:
Stormraven
Stormtalen
Stormhawk
Nephilim
Dark Talon
Stormfang
Stormwolf
(note that at some point in the process Blood Angels went from the only Marines with a flier to not having their own unique flier...)

All those units are substitutes that gives more diversity to the game. You cannot both take a nephilim and a stormtalon, you cannot take a stormfang and a stormraven. I like that, more diversity is good, and since it comes with restrictions, it is perfectly fine.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
All of those units are competing in the same rules-design space.

Yes ! And that's why a consolidation will necessarily lead to the disappearance of some units, unless they keep the restriction that they made.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why don't the Stormwolf and Stormraven use the same basic rules, since they're both transport craft? Do we really need five fighter craft all with just slightly different guns?

Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.
You can dislike that, maybe it was a stupid use of GW's time and they should have produced new kits for other factions (and I can agree with that, even if I love the dark talon), but the fact is they did create those units and it increased the differences between the various SM chapters to a point where the DA that I play was very different from the ultramarines, and I liked that.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What do the Dark Angels do when they need air support and the Ravenwing are off hunting Fallen somewhere else?

It's actually much more difficult to train a techmarine than to train a ravenwing pilot. For this reason, the DA have way more nephilim/dark talon than other SM chapters have stormraven/stormtalon

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Lets do Dreadnoughts! (from memory):
vanilla Dreadnought
vanilla Venerable
vanilla Ironclad
vanilla Contemptor
vanilla Redemptor
Dark Angel Dreadnought (Note: never got signature Mortis in a codex)
Dark Angel Ironclad (nope; Dark Angels obviously never have need of a melee variant)
Dark Angel Venerable
Dark Angel Contemptor
Dark Angel Redemptor
Blood Angel Dreadnought
Blood Angel Furioso (Note: we know Black Templars and Blood Ravens also use the Furioso)
Blood Angel Death Company
Blood Angel Librarian (I guess nobody else has wounded Librarians?)
Blood Angel Contemptor
Blood Angel Redemptor
Space Wolf Dreadnought
Space Wolf Venerable
Space Wolf Contemptor
Space Wolf Redemptor
Space Wolf Wulfen (it's totally nothing like a Death Company Dreadnought! Honest!)
Space Wolf Bjorn
Space Wolf Murderfang (Note: Blood Angels lost Moriah, but Space Wolves gained a crazy character dread)

All those units you are listing here have the same rules accross all SM factions, except for some BA and SW dreadnought who actually are unique dreadnought. Personally I like those diverse Dreadnought and I have bought, from FW, a DA contemptor and Leviathan because I wanted to paint those beautiful mini. This does not create any problem imo.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.

Thus, roll supplement lists (back) into Codex: Space Marines, and consolidate overlapping unit entries*, and voila! less bloat.

Your solution is thus to reduced the diversity in the SM line. I can understand that : it add visibility and balance to the game (it's easier to balance when there's less unit entry/diversity of choice). It's also a loss in diversity, content and character : there are games that are more streamlined than 40K if what you want is visibility and balance.
I personally thought having one codex for SM/DA/SW/BA at least gave both diversity and some form of balance to the game : a SW player for exemple had everything in his codex, some stratagems/relics that were copied from the SM codex and some that were unique. As such, as a SW player he gained things but also lost some.
This new SM codex+supplement design philosophy is inherently imbalanced because a BA/SW/DA player has both all the strata and relics of the core SM books PLUS everything that is specific to his chapter and that is found in the supplement.

Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

I'm happy about it. When I first started my Deathwatch, I could use almost all the new Primaris stuff except one model I wasn't going to use anyway.

Fast forward through the rest of 8Eand a lot of new Primaris are released, and you have to wait to see if GW says Deatchwatch can use them (which they can't except for one tank). And the only real new rules they get are an afterthought in the magazine.

So yeah, being able to use all new and existing vanilla stuff by default, for the flagship army of 40k which we know will always get the most models and releases, sounds pretty good.


The question would be what to do in between when this new book comes out and the new supplement.. Do you:

-Just play them as Space Marines 9E and shelve as your unique units for a while?

-Use 9E codex rules/points for everything that has an entry, use the existing datasheet/Munitorium points for unique units? Would an 8E Warlord take a 9E WT?

-Play with your 8E books and not use the new 9E stuff until the supplement has been released?

Maybe they will release a flowchart or something, like they did with the indexes.

I like it for the simple fact that some of my favorite SM units are not currently available to Dark Angels (namely centurions and thunderfire cannons). I'm assuming of course that I'll be able to use them. There still could be limitations applied in the supplement I suppose.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.

Need is a big word. SM didn't need new releases in 8th and they definitely didn't need new releases in 9th, and yet more and more new units of SM.

Unique units help keeping some variety in the game. Otherwise we'd all just play the same army and I'd never want to play a light grey SM army that has just the chapter trait as the only difference from other chapters.

From my perspective, as a SW player, I didn't need to buy two codexes to play my army, I didn't need to pay for rules about factions I'd never play and I didn't need to buy any of the primaris releases. I'd rather have all the primaris roster squatted, and relegate them to open play like Grukk and Goffs Rockers (in fact I honestly think that they should be there), if that means keeping SW unique units.

The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

Wishful thinking on the part of SW for me.

Martel has a point. The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.

Martel732 wrote:
The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.

You can have Chapters having unique units without that having to mean that they need duplicated rules.

Deathwing would be perfectly adequately represented with the same unit entry as the Archangels and the Warriors of Ultramar.
Sword Brethren needn't have unique rules over Vanguard'/Sternguard.
A Sanguinary Priest and an Apothecary could easily share a datasheet.

Marines are out of control on entries, and the snowflake chapters make it worse needlessly. I play one, I should know.

 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Because there isn't enough else to panic about this week. Some folks need the drama.

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

Pretty much this. There might be a few restrictions, along the line of BT and librarians, but anyone expecting GW to suddenly _not_ sell variant marine kits to marine players doesn't have a firm grasp on the company's core business strategy.

The "snowflake" chapter as some jealous people argue here and there are not responsible for the high number of SM entry. You guys are delusional, as always, only seeing the tree and not the forest.

Your solution is thus to reduced the diversity in the SM line. I can understand that : it add visibility and balance to the game (it's easier to balance when there's less unit entry/diversity of choice). It's also a loss in diversity, content and character : there are games that are more streamlined than 40K if what you want is visibility and balance.
I personally thought having one codex for SM/DA/SW/BA at least gave both diversity and some form of balance to the game : a SW player for exemple had everything in his codex, some stratagems/relics that were copied from the SM codex and some that were unique. As such, as a SW player he gained things but also lost some.
This new SM codex+supplement design philosophy is inherently imbalanced because a BA/SW/DA player has both all the strata and relics of the core SM books PLUS everything that is specific to his chapter and that is found in the supplement.

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

Many Chapters have similar units to those that were lavished on the Wolves and Angels but because of the constant focuss on a three Chapters could never have them.

As soon as any new unit came out for Marines, the first thing many Wolves and Angels players screamed for was them to have them. Many wanted everything that Marines had and then all their own stuff - and they have that now.

It will be intersting it see what units remain "Chapter unique" even if they are little more than name changes or a single rule or if everyone gets access to things like Librarian Dreadnoughts.....

Also if the new Codex addresses the every growing mountain of Marine unit bloat where datasheets could cover many units but are cosntnatly broken up for tiny differences like a different piece of armour or gun.

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years, well enough entry to create a new primaris codex) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not "a marine player" cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.

And how many of those Elite choices are things that could be condensed?
We didn't need Assault and Terminator Squads. Arguably, we didn't even need the Tartaros or Cataphractii Squads.
We didn't need Ironclad. Venerable, and standard Dreadnoughts as separate entries.
We didn't need Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans as separate entries.
We didn't need Assault and Devastator(who, admittedly, are Heavy Support not Elites) Centurions as separate entries.

There's a lot of real examples of bloat in the book, and the Elite section is a good place to look at.

WhiteDog wrote:
The "snowflake" chapter as some jealous people argue here and there are not responsible for the high number of SM entry. You guys are delusional, as always, only seeing the tree and not the forest.

There are SEVENTEEN Terminator squad unit entries. That's a forest.

WhiteDog wrote:

Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.

Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

Martel732 wrote:


The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.

True... if only SM were popular just like other factions. But if all chapters become basically the same army in the reality we have tons of games with very similar lists, as the majority of the players have some kind of marine army. At that point the only healthy solution would be making SM bottom tiers or lower mid tiers, and then yes there would be some variety.