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According to the goonhammer analysis (https://www.goonhammer.com/the-october-2020-40k-meta-review/) the armies we have to worry about are Marines, Custodes, AdMech, Sisters and Harlequins. All other match-up are favorable for us.

With marines moving in custodes territory with all their new gravis toys, I'm not too sure that their nerfs will have too much of an impact on their match-up with us.

Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are

tneva82 wrote:
Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are

Brian was like 8th in ITC last year.

Adrian is a high ranked but not nearly as much as Brian.

I would take their opinions seriously, but not literally. This game has a lot of subjectivity.

yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.

The SM codex is probably *better* than the SM 2.0 codex in overall quality.

The difference is that the game has changed so much that it's less of a problematic codex, if that makes sense.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Stratagems? Fight twice could easily be core for example

I expect shoot twice and fight twice to go away unless they work for one datasheet only.

I mean, the only unit I would think to use it on would be Lootas, but I don't know how to use them right now competitively. They are either being guarded by an over priced mob of grotz or they are dying turn 1 to a stiff breeze. Maybe if they incorporated Shot twice either literally or by increasing ROF for lootas we could justify taking them in a list. I'm still not sure why Lootas don't have a 4+ save since their whole shtick is them stealing crap and making guns and armor out of it.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.

The SM codex is probably *better* than the SM 2.0 codex in overall quality.

The difference is that the game has changed so much that it's less of a problematic codex, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think at most this was a side step for Marines, but this is actually good for Orkz in a way. I think now that Buggy lists are dead, just to much firepower from devestators, eradicators and a host of other things to justify their presence/cost, but on the flipside, while aggresors are still VERY good at slaying boyz like its going out of style, they did lose about 50% of their dmg to our big mobs so we can theoretically over power them now with sheer numbers.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah, I think at most this was a side step for Marines, but this is actually good for Orkz in a way. I think now that Buggy lists are dead, just to much firepower from devestators, eradicators and a host of other things to justify their presence/cost, but on the flipside, while aggresors are still VERY good at slaying boyz like its going out of style, they did lose about 50% of their dmg to our big mobs so we can theoretically over power them now with sheer numbers.

I actually think the buggy list is better now than before, at least against marines.

Marines didn't really get much of a shooting buff. Even eradiactors don't really matter.. they were already killing a buggy a turn.

The horde style list on the other hand might get hammered by Necron lists like silver tide. Warriors are T4, 4+ save -- prime targets for bolter fire. More bolter fire = way more dead boys.

i dont see why people think buggies are dead.

Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring.
Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.

Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).

Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont see why people think buggies are dead.

Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring.
Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.

Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).

Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.

3 doubleshooting is actually what you want to kill 9 wound buggy so no overkill. Within　12" less　needed and you　really　think you can keep buggies 18" from every　side edge? On 44"x60" board? He's getting huge board control that way plus 6 shots is about what　he needs to kill within 30".

No split fire is issue more with 6 strong squads but until marine　has 3x3 no real reason to go for bigger squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw did you watch tabletop titans battle report yesterday? Painfull to watch. Marines had 500 pts unit that basically killed handful orks and still near 100 pts score.

Ugh. Was ork list particularly inefficient or what went so badly? Marines for sure wasn't optimized.

tneva82 wrote:


Ugh. Was ork list particularly inefficient or what went so badly? Marines for sure wasn't optimized.

Adrian had no hammers in his list other than Ghaz. I think he intentionally gimped himself a bit because they thought the Orks were advantaged, and the UM literally tabled him without breaking a sweat *despite* being a bad list. Brian could have probably dropped 500+ points in his army and still tabled Adrian.

The Goffs need those Mega Nobs / Mek Guns to provide more of a threat. Hell even a cheap 83 points warboss for your Killa Klaw. Yeah, it dies, but it can easily run in and smash a unit up.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont see why people think buggies are dead.

Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring.
Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.

Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).

Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.

3 no upgrades Eradicators do 6 shots, 4 hits 2.66 wounds for 9.33 dmg on average, not safely killing 1 buggy let alone over killing it, I would probably upgrade them all to heavies to give them +4-6 dmg and guarantee the kill for 15pts. So a 135pt SM unit is killing a 90-110pt buggy a turn, that is a solid return...thats an OP return in actuality. And Eradicators can combat squad, so they can take 3 squads of 6 and divide them into 6 squads of 3. So they never need to split fire and never really want to.

As far as my lovely scrapjets, they average 5 Rokkitz a turn and 12 big shoota shots. 1 rokkit is hitting on 6s (infantry) and 6 BS shots are hitting on 4s. So the Rokkit Kannon gets 4.66 shots, 1.55 hits and about 1 wound at -2 AP so it has a 2/3rd chance to kill 1 Gravis model a turn. The Wing missile has a 0.22 chance to hit (including possible DDD) .14 chance to wound and about 0.1 chance to kill 1 gravis model. The Big shootas work out to 7 shots each (DDD) for 2.33 and 3.5 hits. that works out to 2.91 wounds for 0.97 damage a turn against Gravis. So on any given turn you have a 0.33 chance to kill 1 Gravis model with the RK, a 0.1 chance to kill another with the wing missile and your 12 BS shots work out to just shy of 1 dmg a turn to gravis. To guarantee 1 dead Gravis a turn (40-60ish points) you need 2 Scrapjets. so 220pts guarantees 1 40 to 60pt model, not a bad return, but those scrapjets will get destroyed a lot quicker by eradicators than the other way around. The only way I see Buggy lists surviving in a tournament against a SM player bringing 9-12 Eradicators is by bringing at least 1 full battery of Smasha gunz, preferably 2 and lighting up his anti-tank options as fast as possible.

Smasha gunz are actually REALLY good at killing Gravis models. 2.3 shots a turn, 1.15 hits a turn and almost always 1 wound a turn at -4 D6 dmg usually means 1 dead gravis a turn.

I'm going to probably have to look into bringing 2 batteries of mek gunz next time I play. Only tactical downside to that is that you are then losing about 1/4th of your army to backfield support weapons that can barely move and are easy to kill.


***Side note: I just noticed the Rokkit Kannon got the blast key word, and the KMK didn't. I don't know if they fixed the blast rule yet as far as weapons with 2D3 or 2D6 etc rules, but if they did, against 6+ model units the Rokkit Kannon now gets 6 shots if they didn't it gets a minimum of 3.

Another plays today. Short notes:

- Kaptin Badrukk is discovery of the week! I was looking for cheap HQ for my grot mob detachement and this guy is really cool. Can ride in transport with other clans, disemabark and stand where you need them for VP and makes a holes in leman russes and smash the GEQ in CC in fight for objective. No deadthstar, no must take, but a solid workhorse in our almost empty pool of HQs.

- I have really mix feeling from SMGs. They move more but not enought. They shoot long, but can 't concentrate the fire, have to shoot on nonsence target like 6 GEQ, because no other target... like was predicted here by Jidmah and others - dense terrain criples them. On other hand, they screen whole deploy very well. Enemy Scramblers had no chance and Battlefield supremacy secondaries suffered. Next time I switch my 6 SMG for 2-3 KBBs a try to dominate backfield with KBBs.

Btw. KMK have to be even worse then SMG. Also imobile but lack the range.

- mixed feeling from Eadbutting Burna Bommer. On tournament few weeks ago and today again - it' s cool to Eadbutt down T1 in enemy deploy. But:
— everybody already knows it. So if you go second, they shoot him down in your deploy. Exlode on 4+, good luck....
— it' s cool, you do 12-18 damage, but you kill nothing. Just scratch the paint. No enemy gunz down. No real impact on the game in T1. Well, exept the fact, you burned down 155p that could had eaten half of enemy anti tank fire...
— since 9th, opponents do not have a hordes of characters. They have 2-4. So it ' s hard to make 30 MW damage per one Eadbutt. This epoche between the start of Saga of the Beast and start of 9th os over. I switch the bommer to the second wazboom next time.
— not a single jump with any of my SJD.... not necessary....

- with 2 SJD, 3 kommandos, 2 planes and trukk + boyz and BW + boyz, Engage all fronts and Deploy Scramblers was super succesfull.

- Deploy Scramblers is a stupid name and setting for ork secondary. I redesigned it to Deploy Spores and make some 25mm base fungus markers to remeber, what was already deployed

- Scrapjets are so good! Great combination of weapons and CC. And again, almost no use of corkscrew but lack of speed. Squig tyres for the next time!

- I like 9th. Like a switch from cheap potato rum to fine caribian bottle. Much more complex game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
- btw - did you know, that Ramming speed is valid for whole charge phase, so you can charge 3D6 + mortal wounds twice with Unstop. Momentum?

Love the list and reasoning Tomsug. A couple of questions: what planes are you using? Do you go for a T1 charge with your transports and boyz or are they a response choice? And finally have you considered Linebreaker in lieu of Engage? I´m theorizing that SJDs and Kommandos are easy enablers for Linebreakers if you also go for a T1 charge into the enemys deploy strategy and make some space.

Scatcha - now it was wazboom and burna bommer.

Yeah, BW has a deffrolla and charge T1. Sometimes. But not to enemy deploy. I charge if I go second and he has units in the midfield. I don ' t even use the wartrike. I don' t hurry too much to enemy deploy. I hurry to make a position in the midfield. I keep my scrapjets in the back and shoot. They are pretty good at it.

All units except BW are soft like a hell. If the enemy fires on them, they die super fast. I keep my scrapjets back, hide them behind the buildings and keep them in position, where they see a few targets they want to kill and most of the enemy army do not see them. SJD the same. Deploy them always on the back edge of my deploy. Be ready to go second.

Linebreaker - can' t be done by plane plus makes me to go a lot to enemy deploy. But I can' t be there. He will kill me. I want to hold my deploy and midfield. If I pass it, it could be 15:10 or even 15:5 on primaries per turn. It is not important to keep as much objectives As possible all the game. Keep 2 or three is fine. The key is DENY your opponent scoring primaries. Because you can pass the max point in just 3 turns. So I spent first 2 turn by eliminating his anti tank fire, feeding his gunz with fake targets - defenceless but hard to kill transports, planes with -1 hit and 5++ threaten him with Eadbutt... this keeps my scrapjets and SJD alive. And conquering the midfield. I put ma transports there and take objectives. It makes him to kill them. And the BW can block the LOS very well

And you can pass Engage from the midfield also = synergy.

Off course I drop some kommandos to enemy deploy to do scramblers and make a mess. But you can' t hold them too long. Linebreaker is for 2 Nauts charging over the field or something like this.

But I'm not a top tier player, I just like it.

Thanks for the response. I´m at the same plan except even more offensive with the Trike escorting them forward and trying different variants of KFF bubble around them. Forktress, Wazbom or a Big Mek with KFF onboard. My reasoning has been to make them pull back and delay them enter the midfield due to being busy handling the invasion of their deploy. That said I think you have a point in it being greedy gunning for opposing deploy with a glasscannon army. It takes quite some tinkering with screening and consolidating correctly etc.

I agree it´s increasingly clear that denying opponent Primaries is a key strategy (for us at least). Your strategy has fewer cogs in motion which almost always is better. A midboard counter punch may well be a safer bet. Good talk

Hi lads,

I have a lil noob question.
In current situation can I use stratagems from both codex and Saga of the beast?

During my last battle (first after many years) TEMPERAMENTAL SHOKK DRIVE and DRIVE-BY KRUMPIN’ gave my opponent real hard time. and I am wondering if that was cool.

tneva82 wrote:
Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are

Theyre both good. I would trust their opinions over people on here at the very least

 Billagio wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are

Theyre both good. I would trust their opinions over people on here at the very least

IMO that depends on whether they are talking about their main armies or ones they've picked up along the way. The definitely know their way around marines though.

wojtekwroc wrote:
Hi lads,
I have a lil noob question.
In current situation can I use stratagems from both codex and Saga of the beast?

You absolutely can, as long as the stratagem requirements themselves are met.
The codex is the "base" and SotB is an add-on.

Yea i can see how the Mega blasta kannon thingie would be.. less beneficial due to the points it takes. I mean for every 2 mega blasta kannon what ever they are called, i could field 3 Smasha Guns.

Still though, it would seem the traktor cannon would be better if the enemy has vehicles with Fly keywords?

No idea. Ive modelled my Mek Gun as a traktor kannon because it looks cool, but ill be using it as a smasha gun.

Beardedragon wrote:
Yea i can see how the Mega blasta kannon thingie would be.. less beneficial due to the points it takes. I mean for every 2 mega blasta kannon what ever they are called, i could field 3 Smasha Guns.

Still though, it would seem the traktor cannon would be better if the enemy has vehicles with Fly keywords?

No idea. Ive modelled my Mek Gun as a traktor kannon because it looks cool, but ill be using it as a smasha gun.

Traktor kannons are only really good against models that have built in or easy access to negative to hit mods. With the changes to neg to hit mods that no longer stacking, I'm not sure if they're really worth taking even with the bonus against FLY. Having only one shot makes very hit or miss IMO.

Tips on mek gunz is easy to make replacaceble. Just do not glue it and replace.

There are 3 main reasons to take Mek Gunz:
- cheap body
- long range that negates slow move
- brutal AP -4

Smasha has all of them.
KBK has non of them. Cost more, Range just 36”, boring ap-3.
Traktor is simply not so effective. Mathhammer

Ever since the codex has dropped, the main reason for bringing KMK is saving money.

Game-wise there is no reason bring anything but smashas, but I fully expect that to change with our next codex.

 Tomsug wrote:
Tips on mek gunz is easy to make replacaceble. Just do not glue it and replace.

There are 3 main reasons to take Mek Gunz:
- cheap body
- long range that negates slow move
- brutal AP -4

Smasha has all of them.
KBK has non of them. Cost more, Range just 36”, boring ap-3.
Traktor is simply not so effective. Mathhammer

KMKs have D6 shots instead of D3 and they're better against T7-8 models though. Damage output is higher than Smasha Gunz, which have the edge only because they're really cheap and their appropriate target is the gravis dude, which is the model people currently tailor their lists against. If mek gunz all cost the same, for example by using PL, KMKs are better than Smashas. Mortal wounds on 1s are the most annoying thing about KMKs, a bit mitigated if there's a Big Mek nearby while range 36''+3''M is absolutely fine with the new boards, and AP-3 is still good.

Traktors' only downside is the AP-2. S8 and no -1 to hit penalty makes it more efficient against some targets than Smashas, especially those ones that have invulns when the AP-4 is nothing better than AP-2 and naturally come with a -1 to hit like drukhari/harlequins vehicles or axe/shield SW dreads. Autohitting is huge, mind that a Smasha gun shouldn't get more than a single hit on average anyway.

 IronSlug wrote:

wojtekwroc wrote:
Hi lads,
I have a lil noob question.
In current situation can I use stratagems from both codex and Saga of the beast?

You absolutely can, as long as the stratagem requirements themselves are met.
The codex is the "base" and SotB is an add-on.

Maybe he got confused by marines losing all the PA stuff for the variant chapters. But for now orks are fine. Once codex comes out likely go out with some remaining in codex but good luck for anybody figuring out when codex will come-.

Hey guys.

I was fiddling around with battlescribe and i noticed that Ghazzy couldnt pick a warlord trait. is this just a battlescribe bug or can Ghazzy not have a warlord trait? Where is it written that he cant have one?

I know he cant have a shiny gubbinz but i dont recall reading he couldnt have a trait.. well i guess its because he already have so many buffs or something

He always has the goff warlord trait if he is your warlord.

 Jidmah wrote:
He always has the goff warlord trait if he is your warlord.

ah. so that counts as his warlord trait.

thanks

Blackie - I play mek gunz a lot and I don' t agree with you in one critical aspect - there is a crucial difference between 48 and 36 range.

1. 48 = deploy in back, move 3” forward and you can fire anywhere, even diagonaly you cover most of the field. With 36? No. No way.

2. A lot of enemy fire is around 36 range. If you are in range, they are in range. With 48 just the battlecannons and similar guns can compete. And you die, because t5 w6 is soft.

3. With new dense terrain, it' s easy to hide behind. If you can fire 48, you can fire in various direction and you find some hole and hit something on the other side of the table. With 36, you can be easily deprived.

4. Smaller table helps 48. Because with old tables, 48 was not enought to fire anywhere. mek gun is 3” long, move 3” = mek gun on the back edge is efectively 54” range on 60” table. Deploy 3” from the back edge and there is nowhere to hide for enemy tanks. SAG used to have such position in 8th with his 60” range. But 60” is not necessary anymore. But with 36”. Either you deploy in front and die because go second, or deploy in back and cannot fire if you go first, because of short range.

Every time I played with KMK, opponent calculate with my 36” range and result was, that my KMK shoot less then SMG.

 Tomsug wrote:


Every time I played with KMK, opponent calculate with my 36” range and result was, that my KMK shoot less then SMG.

And then your opponent will lose everytime since there's no way to lose a game if no armored enemy unit decides to stay 39'' away from your mek gunz.