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 Tomsug wrote:
Blackie - well, as I said, I 've playied with this list during last year about 10-15 games.

1. If you have smashas, the right way is to spread them around to
- find the crossfiring angles. Otherwise, enemy move a little and your Smg has nothing valuable to shoot at.
- screen againts DS infantry trying to do the secondaries.
- this mean, you can' t hide them under 9” bubble of KFF
2. In case you have 9th ed table and your opponent is not a nut (or plays bunch of knights no able to hide or something like this), SMG suffers by lack of targets. 50% of the SMGs shooting at 5guardsman or no at all was a standard.
3. My final conclusion is, there is better way how to spent the points than the SMGs in buggy list.

My first versions of this list had a Bonebreaker and cheap KFF Big Mek also. But cheap is not so cheap if sitting useless behind. So I downgrade Bonebreaker to BW, spare 40p and buy MA BigMek instead, boosted it and send him to fight. Works much better.

Yeah I basically agree with you, but mind that in a buggy based list you aren't screening the buggies with mek gunz, you're blocking their way!! Buggies don't fly and have a massive footprint. They're also cheap enough to don't really care about deepstrikers, especially if there are 12 of them.

I also prefer BWs to Bonebreakas in geneal but if you just want an empty wagon, like the guy most certainly did as he didn't bring anything that needed a ride, the latter could be a better option. BW + Megarmored Mek is 30-40 pts more expensive than Bonebreaka + KFF big mek and the Megarmored Mek also need an escort, which is another investment of at least 90 points (10 boyz and a weapon for the nob).

In my experience Smasha Gunz that don't have juicy targets aren't wasted: they're cheaper, more killy and more resilient than MSU kommandos, koptas (except for BS ones which are useless though) or stormboyz to sit on home objectives or contribute to Engage On All Fronts which is a legit secondary for orks (one that I picked up multiple times). If you want infantries because you prefer other secondaries to achieve that's also legit of course.

I typically play on boards with 25-30% terrain, not Necromunda style cities with very little room to place models, that may also contribute. I, and people in my group, hate boards where it's a pain to just move the models as there's too much terrain. 6x 48'' guns that can spread out and don't have any decent target is not the norm even with their crappy 3''M.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
So no orks in top 20 in the latest Goonhammer report.
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-objective-secured-perth-gt/

Do you think this is due to a lack of competitive ork players in the tournament? I wasn't there so it's kinda hard to know. I looked through the top 50 lists on Down Under pairings and only found one ork Entry (29th place)

This is his list

Spoiler:

Luke Newell

Codex: Orks
Clan Culture: Goffs
1 x Battalion Detachment
Starting 8CP (12CP (game size) - 3CP (detachment) + 3CP (warlord) - 1CP (Kustom Job) - 2CP Skarboyz - 1CP (Da Kleverest Boss))

HQ
Ghazghkull Thraka - 15pwr / 300pts

Big Mek in Mega Armour - 6pwr / 118pts
Warlord Trait, Follow Me Ladz

Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

Strat: Da Kleverest Boss

FREE Relic - Super Cybork Body

Weirdboy - 4pwr / 75pts
Psychic Powers: Da Jump, Smite

Troops
Boyz - 12pwr / 250pts
3 x Tankbusta Bombs
Boss Nob 8pts
Power Klaw - 10pts
29 x Ork Boy w/Slugga & Choppa - 232 pts


Boyz - 12pwr / 250pts
3 x Tankbusta Bombs
Boss Nob 8pts
Power Klaw - 10pts
29 x Ork Boy w/Slugga & Choppa - 232 pts


Gretchin - 4pwr / 50pts
10 x Gretchin

Gretchin - 4pwr / 50pts
10 x Gretchin

Elites
MegaNobz - 10pwr / 198pts
Boss Meganob w/Power Klaw - 2pwr / 38pts
Meganob w/Saws - 2pwr / 40pts
Meganob w/Saws - 2pwr / 40pts
Meganob w/Saws - 2pwr / 40pts
Meganob w/Saws - 2pwr / 40pts

Painboy - 3pwr / 69pts

Grot Orderly

Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 18pwr / 370pts
Boss Nob - 12pts
Power Klaw - 10pts
29 x Stormboyz - 348pts

Heavy Support
Bonebreaka - 10pwr / 190pts

Big Shoota,Grot Rigger, Deff Rolla

1CP - Kustom Job: Forktress

Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 30pts

Mek Gunz 3pwr / 40pts
Smasha Gun - 20pts

It seems kinda scattered and not optimized to me, so maybe that's why it placed so far down. I dunno, what do ya'll think?

What is with people's obession of taking Powerklaws on Boss Nobs when Killsaws are also available and the same pts.... Is it purely this is what ive got modelled on my Nobs kinda thing? Or are they future proofing their armies if and when our Killsaws and Powerklaws get the Powerfist and Chainfist changes when our Codex drops? It always seems odd to me that people still take Powerklaws in a tournament, the extra AP and the consistent damage could actually mean something in these matches.

 deffrekka wrote:


What is with people's obession of taking Powerklaws on Boss Nobs when Killsaws are also available and the same pts.... Is it purely this is what ive got modelled on my Nobs kinda thing? Or are they future proofing their armies if and when our Killsaws and Powerklaws get the Powerfist and Chainfist changes when our Codex drops? It always seems odd to me that people still take Powerklaws in a tournament, the extra AP and the consistent damage could actually mean something in these matches.

Mostly the WYSIWYG thing. Before 9th no one played killsaws on nobz. I have 30+ nobz and only of them is actually equipped with a killsaw. All the other killsaw bitz that I had I put into some conversions. So I play with 1 killsaw and 0-2 power klaws (depending on the number of boyz squads) because that's what I have, and I'm not willing to add more nobz or break already finished models. I guess Aussie dudes are doing the same .

Competitively speaking killsaws are flat out superior than power klaws, even with the Deathskulls re-rolls.

Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.

One of the lists in the goonhammer article is harlquins and 10 point druka bikes (which are obviously a mistake form the FAQ), I really dont know what to think about a tournament authorising 10 point drukari bike spam.

It is the Dave Horne – Aeldari – 2nd Place army list. I guess it only made it second and not fist, so there is that...

Blackie - yeah, traffic jam is a serious issue with buggy list and SMGs doesn' t help. And doesn' t move, so when the small fights in late turns take place on a “wrong” place, part of the SMGs is sitting somewhere totaly useless. That is one of the reasons why I put them in the storage and skip them now in the list.

I combine the buggies with Wazboom and BuBommer and pimp up the KBBs with squig tyres. So my deploy is full, but SJDs jump out via tellyport, Jets fly by (or die if go second...), KBBs have 14” to move far away and my 2 transports - Big Trakk and BW move also pretty fast. So what stay in back is pack od Scrapjets, that are slow and I want to keep them back first 2 turns anyway, to be the decisive striking force in the later part of the game. Works fine.

MA Big Mek + escort - yeah, that is very well working part of my list. 2 transports with their own 5++, 2 beefy characters, each of them with 10 boyz. Transports delivere them in to the midfield and boyz and characters can make a great mess with all their melee abilities and obsec.

And I' m pretty sure, opponent do not kill the transport in T1. Because he' s scared like a hell from the Jets. So transport is always sucess. They die usually T2 (opponent find them more important than sniping buggies) or on the end (opponent priorities the buggies and transports annoy him to T4).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
This. In my last game, I had a single MAN standing when the game ended, while the DA hat over 1000 points left. I won by a 27 VP lead

Well played. MANz were my first models and I love them since. And I believe, they are very effective and can deal a real hell of damage and last long. They have only 2 disadventages - do not fit in the buggy list well and I' ve painted 10 of them in my old red color scheme, that do not fit to my current army style

What clan do you play with them?

I thought the same thing about the min squads of Stormboyz and Kommandos, but the problem ended up being that when up against even a moderate player they just get shot off the table before they can perform their duties (unless I can get lucky and hide them somewhere they can't see).

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
I thought the same thing about the min squads of Stormboyz and Kommandos, but the problem ended up being that when up against even a moderate player they just get shot off the table before they can perform their duties (unless I can get lucky and hide them somewhere they can't see).

I think this is a matter of how the tables look like. Many people are still putting all the obscuring terrain everywhere (usually nothing but ruins), essentially neutering shooting to a point where melee is the only way to really kill stuf and nothing but infantry can get anywhere. For those game these little units are just free VP.

If you build more balanced tables, like the guys from tabletop titans are suggesting (and GW kind of explains in the BRB), you are better off with something like a kannon/gunwagon, walker, mek gun or a buggy sitting on objectives and trukkboyz or MANz for performing actions, as they are likely to get some sort of protection, but will not be immune to shooting and need to be able to take a hit or two.

On terrain-light tables or tables with lots of non-functional terrain, like many of the popular TTS maps or many diorama-like setups these small units become a total liability, as they will just be gunned down with much effort. Orks will have a hard time in general on these tables, unless the opponent is just as ill prepared for a shooting gallery as you are.

Personally, I would always suggest trying to get a balanced terrain setup with a range of obscuring, barricades, dense and pure LOS blockers, because it's less prone to skew and more fun to play, but it's obvious that you can't always influence how the terrain is set up.

Yeah, the few games I've been able to play at my club for 9th had a lot of hills but very little that was classified as obscuring.

 Jidmah wrote:
Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.

For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.

 deffrekka wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.

For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.

Yup, it's pendulum that keeps swinging every edition/codex change. Just like right now multi-meltas are the new hotness when just months ago they weren't even looked at as a real anti-tank weapon. It's like what happened with Mek Gunz. Back in 7th, you'd really only take KMK's, now it's smasha gunz.

 deffrekka wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.

For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.

When I built most of my nobz, killsaws we just cybork body parts and best used to convert painboyz

To be fair isn’t there only 1 killsaw in the entire nob kit and nothing in the boyz kit. (There is also a killsaw in the Mek clam pack) It isn’t like killsaw bits were plentiful.

I got 12 nobs.. 6 Pks and 6 big choppas (plus the new character that’s just slugga and choppa)

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Yeah, the few games I've been able to play at my club for 9th had a lot of hills but very little that was classified as obscuring.

lots of people play planet bowling ball and/or tables with across the table line of sight everywhere. either they don't realize they are neutering any assault army or they know and are trying to have a significant advantage. A local player in 8th playing tau would refuse to play a game where there was anything that could block los to more than a squad of 5. have not played him in 9th and stopped playing him in 8th no point in just setting up models to have them all removed before they can do anything. to be fair he only showed up occasionally and most people would only play him once or twice then just shrug off like naw, i am here for a good game not to be target fodder. he did have a guard player who would often play him.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Yeah, the few games I've been able to play at my club for 9th had a lot of hills but very little that was classified as obscuring.

lots of people play planet bowling ball and/or tables with across the table line of sight everywhere. either they don't realize they are neutering any assault army or they know and are trying to have a significant advantage. A local player in 8th playing tau would refuse to play a game where there was anything that could block los to more than a squad of 5. have not played him in 9th and stopped playing him in 8th no point in just setting up models to have them all removed before they can do anything. to be fair he only showed up occasionally and most people would only play him once or twice then just shrug off like naw, i am here for a good game not to be target fodder. he did have a guard player who would often play him.

The thing to watch out for in 9th is that you can actually have the opposite effect as well. If you put four rows of ruins diagonally across the table, you'd have an awesome 8th edition table, but you completely neuter shooting in 9th.

Just running through the math and a buffed evil sunz gun platform kustom stompa (shadows in the smoke with most dakka) can kill Morty in one turn of shooting with change. Lifta stompa alone will do 9ish wounds.

That seems unlikely - care to show your math?

In other news, it's exciting to see Orks being represented in the NLVO!

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-4-art-of-war-down-under/

What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.

Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
In other news, it's exciting to see Orks being represented in the NLVO!

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-4-art-of-war-down-under/

What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.

Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.

Yeah, that is Liam Hacket and his list. Discussed there couple pages ago. Tabletop Titans played this list like 2 weeks ago? The video is available, so check it.

This list is a lot about right positioning of MANz and putting SAGs somewhere on the tower and play a gamble with their rolls. Howevere, 3x SAGs is so much rolls for number of shoots and S that you can count with some average during 5 turns....

 Jidmah wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Same for me. It's also pretty likely that any killsaw nobz you build now will be worse/useless once the codex hits.

For me I have a vast collection of Nobz from over the years so much so that I have a Nob for all load outs (I have around 50 Nobz and 30 Meganobz which were for Bullyboyz back in the day) and as Ive gone back selling my older ones and making new ones to replace them Ive gone to magnetising my weapons because I know for sure Killsaws will be like Chainfists and other weapons will become the new hotness in the future.

When I built most of my nobz, killsaws we just cybork body parts and best used to convert painboyz

How I built mine was I had a lot of spare Killsaw arms from all the Meganobz I bought when they got made into plastic, I got the Nob arms from Assault on Black Reach which are noticably beefier than the newer Nob kit and I sawed them just before the elbow and attached the spare Killsaws. I never really liked the actually Killsaw you get in the Nob kits, it just looks off and its in a bad position that doesnt really suit the other arms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptainO wrote:
Just running through the math and a buffed evil sunz gun platform kustom stompa (shadows in the smoke with most dakka) can kill Morty in one turn of shooting with change. Lifta stompa alone will do 9ish wounds.

Hmm doesnt seem likely and the Stompa is a fair chunk of change more than Morty. Are we talking double Lifta Droppas?

 Jidmah wrote:
That seems unlikely - care to show your math?

Maybe I can supply:

2 Stompa Lifta droppa get 16 shot that on average deal 5-1=4 wound. Since Morty has a 4++ and 5+++ and chance to wound is just short of 0.74 (chance to roll higher than 8 on 3d6 is 160/216) this will give you 0.9876 unsaved wounds per hit.

X shots with full rerolls (visions) and more dakka gets you

A = (X+(X-X*1/3))*1/3 #reroll all

all hits A qualify for more dakka thanks to BS 5 so modifiers do not apply and all missed dakka may be rerolled

B = (A+ (A-A*1/3))*1/3

Y = A+B = 0.8642 * X

Visions plus more dakka is .86 times number of shots ALWAYS

unsaved damage from stompa lifta droppa will hence be

16*0.8642*0.9876= 13.65

add his belly gun and gaze and you will one shot Morty on average.

Edit: I calculated the wound on 3d6 to quickly and had 170/216 originally rather than 160/216. math corrected now

Edit II: the actual odds to one shot him aren't really good by the way as the kustom stompa does it just about on average. Its also extremely swingy as you heavily rely on 5s and 6s on your original rolls. More dakka is win more

Sound good, thanks for doing that.

High damage shots seem to be the one thing that actually brings down Mortarion reliably, and the stompa has plenty of that.

The general consensus of those testing him right now seems to be that you need to keep him busy but not kill him, because even when people are trying their best to kill Mortarion, he has a decent chance to still be alive by the end of the game.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
In other news, it's exciting to see Orks being represented in the NLVO!

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-4-art-of-war-down-under/

What do you all think of this list? I haven't seen a list like that in a bit, which is quite a refreshing break from the Ghazz/Boyz or Buggy spam we've been seeing lately.

Tons of hitting power with the Manz...3x SAG seems a little odd to me, but I remember reading somewhere that even with their points increase they were still a force to be reckoned with. I just haven't played them myself so I don't have any experience in that realm.

Yeah, that is Liam Hacket and his list. Discussed there couple pages ago. Tabletop Titans played this list like 2 weeks ago? The video is available, so check it.

This list is a lot about right positioning of MANz and putting SAGs somewhere on the tower and play a gamble with their rolls. Howevere, 3x SAGs is so much rolls for number of shoots and S that you can count with some average during 5 turns....

I have been playing SAG / SSAG for the hole of 9th and being laughed at, but they still do the same as before and killed their share of stuff. Basicly a wild card with the chance to spike just with a bit more point investment and the need for better protection. My main problem was actually CP usage, especially combined with boys.
Have occasionally run 1 SSAG in buggy lists and dumped in 4 CP first turn hoping for some serious damage and after that don`t really caring about what happens to it as it gets a lot worse without shooting twice & more dakka. Funny enough thats why it gets ignored sometimes and can still kill a few primaris later.
Also it might be a good option to take on Morti, with DS rerolls and chances for mortal wounds.
The average damage is actually not that great but the chance to spike could be worth it.

It`s just a matter of point investment. Plus to be fair, haven`t played tournaments in 9th just matched play where SSAG is still legal.
Had most success in tide lists where they provided solid anti tank while the boys and gretchin flood the table and keep the opponent busy.

I've just stopped using vigilus when 9th hit. It doesn't feel right to keep using something that was so clearly flagged as "not considered for balance", plus I don't want to rely on something that definitely is going away when the codex is released.

That said, I miss the utility of the kult of speed detachment more than I do miss the power of the dreadmob. Snazztrike and the stratagems a dearly missed.

Yeah i had some pretty good charges with advancing Nobbikers with that one.
I hope the bring that stuff into our future codex.

At least they wrote some of the vigilus and PA stuff in the codicies so far, so there is a chance we`ll get it "back".


In my mind it´s fair that way as stuff like the viglius SM upgrades are build in in their codex now without need to upgrade it to a specialist detachment and pay initial CP for it.

its a little sad to see the Gargantuan squiggoth. I mean if you want to use it to its fullest, you have to put ranged guys in it.

You cant use it to transport your otherwise most valuable close combat infantry (if thats what you wanted to), the Mega Nobz. Im not sure why they excluded Mega armored units in the squiggoths (both small and gargant variant), one would think there should be amble space up there on the howdah.

Also isnt the Supa kannon crewed by grots? at least grots comes with the supa kannon item, so im not sure why the Squiggoth supa kannon would hit on 5s and not 4s, given the kannon wagon hits on 4s (and the fluff text states that its because its crewed by grots). Seeing all those options from what it had before the forge world update, now being lost, makes me sad. Alas it was given the same treatment as the Big trakk.Its really an expensive and glorified transport, so if i dont have anything to really transport (since i cant put MANZ in it) im not sure how i SHOULD use it. sadly i have no ranged infantry units except for Tankbustas that i will receive when ever GW decides to send them to me. I have neither flash gitz nor Lootas.

Is there a way to use a Gargantuan Squiggoth non competitively without tankbustas, flash gitz or Lootas inside of it?

While i would pay 3 CP to use it and get no clan culture as its an auxillary unit, id still want to try it out. I got the unit recently, not because i thought it'd be great for combat, but because the model is awesome.

Ahh and the second Ork list in the NLVO. Classic Green Tide.

Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-5-art-of-war-down-under-pt-2/

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Ahh and the second Ork list in the NLVO. Classic Green Tide.

Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-5-art-of-war-down-under-pt-2/

At a guess I would say it’s used to counteract powers/abilities that reduce charge ranges like the Custodes stratagem, Ad Mech bombers etc.

Heh, and he plays againts Liam Hacket second list with chaos space marines. This dude is everywhere

Bullcharge is used also to charge over dense terrain - helps with -2” penalty.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Ahh and the second Ork list in the NLVO. Classic Green Tide.

Points of interest for me: The fact that the weirdboy took Bull Charge instead of Warpath. I haven't used that power in-game as I usually take warpath, does anyone have experience with it?

https://www.goonhammer.com/las-vegas-nopen-match-5-art-of-war-down-under-pt-2/

In the Art of War podcast he talks a bit about his choices. Basically he wants an army that is as reliable as possible, so the Bull Charge power ensures when he needs a 7 inch or less charge he gets it.