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pepi55 wrote:

Afrodactyl wrote:

pepi55 wrote:

Afrodactyl wrote:
Boyz still have a place in the army list, they just need to be used slightly differently is all. Snaggas are good, especially in a vehicle/monster meta. Shoota boys are garbage though, especially in comparison to the army's other choices.

Please elaborate on how you think they should be used now?
Good thing I haven't modelled my shoota boiz kits yet. They will probably end up as choppa boiz or as bodies for lootas+burnas

So I'm currently using three mobs of trukk boys, with 10 models apiece and the Nob has a Klaw. My list is very much weighted as an alpha strike type list, so I've tried to put as many early threats as possible on the board.

The boys race up the field and do one of a handful of things;
1. Get obliterated
2. Get ignored and do nothing
3. Kill something (something that's probably damaged by another unit)
4. Tag something and take it out of the game for a turn

Depending on the flow of the game, all of these are probably a bonus for me.
1. It means those attacks haven't been used against my kommandos, stormboys, buggies, etc, so they are free to cause chaos.
2. It means that they're still there next turn to keep some momentum going by attacking, taking or contesting an objective, etc.
3 and 4. I've finished off or tied up an enemy unit, so I'm starting to limit the damage I'm receiving on the following turns and can put pressure on objectives.

Boys aren't the best choice in the book by a huge margin, but they are still an effective force multiplier tool and pressure unit. We talk about how easy it is to wipe boys and trukks off the table, but when there's so many targets of similar profiles bearing down on the opponent they start needing to make some decisions about target priority.


Don't get me wrong, they aren't a horrendous unit nor an amazing one. But we've always done best when we pick an army type and stick with it, and grots don't mesh with how my list wants to close the gap quickly. Between my trukk boys, kommandos and stormboys I have a lot of fast moving infantry that can take objectives, beat heads, or hide and be action monkeys as the situation requires.

Thanks for the insighr, this is actually very helpful information as I still dont have the experience to know what to do with each unit.
So to paraphrase and make sure I understood it right, Boyz are now supposed to threaten key objectives and draw fire away from more important units?

Now I want to know what those units should be. Are the killy units more important? Im thinking that boyz are important because they are more likely to score points because of obsec and the other units are there to make sure that the boyz keep those objectives by drawing focus away from them.

but I can see it working the other way if the units the boyz distract from are capable of destroying the opposing army and clearing the field so you can score uncontested.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbbobb wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, suddenly there's still sense in taking saws - at least 1 or 2 per 3 manz


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It does seem like an oversight, though.

Nah been like this for ages.
It's not even overpowering. They are 45 pts per model a killa Kan is 40 Pts And has 4 attacks at flat 3 damage

but killa kanz dont get kulturs so its somewhat of a tradeoff?

Also, dont MANz and killa kanz fill different roles? I thought kanz are now the de-facto TP in and charge unit while MANz are more of a start on the board unit

I was only comparing Pts and saying they aren't overpowering.

 kingbbobb wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Found this Mathhammer stuff on mek guns on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/p0ehb9/ork_effectiveness_of_new_ork_mek_gunz/

Hilariously, bubblechukkas and KMK seem to be the best guns right now.

Kmk's look good all rounder.

I did have my doubts about the one shot tractor kannon even against flying vehicles with its d6+ 3 damage

I have doubts about it as well, Traktors are extremely solid now. Skimmers and aircraft are pretty common where I play so Traktors are my default choice.

Those maths tend to be useless since a lot of damage factor is game-oriented.

Traktor Kannon got a -2, with speedwaagh -3, far enough against every unit he's designed to shoot (Raiders, AdMech aircrafts, DG Drones) due to the invul and stuff. They are your only reliable option against Aircrafts.

KMK got a -4 in speedwaagh, something pretty useless nowadays (Every freaking thing in this game got a invulnerable save ATM) the D6 is super random and they are 36".

Bubblechucka is so random doing mathhammer is pretty useless, since his whole profile changes (You cannot say the average height of 2 persons is 1,85 when you've got Michael Jordan and Leo Messi as samples, variation is so high the result doesn't give you any information).

Smasha gun is far worst when you've got KMK option that does the same but better.

 kingbbobb wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, suddenly there's still sense in taking saws - at least 1 or 2 per 3 manz
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It does seem like an oversight, though.

Nah been like this for ages.
It's not even overpowering. They are 45 pts per model a killa Kan is 40 Pts And has 4 attacks at flat 3 damage

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

 Scactha wrote:

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

Also Goffs kultur, which kanz can't have. Goffs and Big Krumpaz have the same results.

 kingbbobb wrote:

I was only comparing Pts and saying they aren't overpowering.

I was adding the kultur factor to your comparison, not refuting it.

Somehow it seems that invulns are expensive only when adding it to units but removing invuls costs only ~-5 pts.

 Blackie wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

Also Goffs kultur, which kanz can't have. Goffs and Big Krumpaz have the same results.

oh damn, I didnt even notice goffs was straight up an extra HIT on a 6, not just an extra attack. That's crazy, so any given goffs mob in range of a boss is averaging a 100% hit rate.

Goff Boyz even off of the waagh are even more damaging in combat than wyches then. I keep underestimating just how good of a trait Goffs is...

Keep in mind the wording for a pair of saws RAW gives 2 attacks, not 1.

Which makes them more interesting as a combat hammer.

Kanz still seem to be superior on foot. But manz can probably ride a trukk or wagon. Just too expensive with a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2+ was pretty irrelevant in most games. They still get one-shotted by most things they face. Now if they had -1 damage, they'd be good. As is, too many things simply wreck them.

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind the wording for a pair of saws RAW gives 2 attacks, not 1.

Which makes them more interesting as a combat hammer.

hmmmmmmmm...........

TeChnIcAlLy he's right, as you still have 2 killsaws and it does say "if this model is equippped wth 2 killsaws, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon "
Which would be 2 sources of "1 attack with this weapon"

THAT could be why theyre 45pts for some reason. I'm not to bent out of shape if thats the case.

course the "GW Hates Orks" in me just thinks "Nah thats a mistake they totally didnt intend that"

pepi55 wrote:

 kingbbobb wrote:

I was only comparing Pts and saying they aren't overpowering.

I was adding the kultur factor to your comparison, not refuting it.

Somehow it seems that invulns are expensive only when adding it to units but removing invuls costs only ~-5 pts.

If you asked me if, for the same cost, i'd rather have a terminator with T5 or the 5++ I'd take T5 every single time without a single question.

you're going to be identically durable against weapons that actually trigger that 5++ (Say, a melta gun, which will wound the T5 terminator on 3s and the T4 terminator on 2s) and against any S5, S4, or S8 weapon without AP-4 the T5 terminator will have superior durability.

AP-? The same. Ap-1? The same. Ap-2? the same. Ap-3? the same. Ap-4? The same if you're in cover. higher AP than 4 might as well not exist and like 90% of AP-4 weapons that exist are the exact same strength, melta guns and equivalents are the OVERWHELMING majority of AP-4 weapons across basically every faction (imperials, marines, sisters, custodes, necrons, tau, eldar, drukhari, harlequins)

MANZ with klaws have 1/2 the firepower of imperial terminators, but they have generally better defense thanks to T5, dont lose their 3rd attack if off the charge, and get strength 10 instead of strength 8 which is handy vs T5 and T8 targets. In terms of access to the special goodies, the Waagh manz have access to is massively better than the Tactical Doctrine that terminators generally get on the turn they usually do their stuff.

Manz with saws are a trickier comparison to thunder hammer terminators because its basically 'one gets toughness the other gets damage.' 5A S10 AP-4 Dd3 vs 3A S8 Ap-2 D3 (2A not on the charge) but the TH/SS terms get 1+sv and 4++ which does make them more durable against most profiles (equal vs S4, S5, S8, S9 AP-1, AP-2, Ap-3 and MANZ are tougher vs those strength values AP-.)

+2A for the pair of killsaw is totally unintentional. Otherwise also a single killsaw should have granted +1A. There's no other weapon that doesn't give extra attack but if you take two they both do.

One addtional attack for the pair is clearly RAI, and that's another mistake in this codex.

 Blackie wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

Also Goffs kultur, which kanz can't have. Goffs and Big Krumpaz have the same results.

Meganobs are core so they get +1to hit from the warboss aura. In general I would only go big krumpaz on manz if putting them on a teleporter. Don't want to lose goffs kultur

 Vineheart01 wrote:

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind the wording for a pair of saws RAW gives 2 attacks, not 1.

Which makes them more interesting as a combat hammer.

hmmmmmmmm...........

TeChnIcAlLy he's right, as you still have 2 killsaws and it does say "if this model is equippped wth 2 killsaws, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon "
Which would be 2 sources of "1 attack with this weapon"

THAT could be why theyre 45pts for some reason. I'm not to bent out of shape if thats the case.

course the "GW Hates Orks" in me just thinks "Nah thats a mistake they totally didnt intend that"

I can totally see GW intending for it to be just one bonus attack rather than two. Don't be surprised if they errata against the xenos faction in a future FAQ.

Related question - I just got my first batch of Orks and have started working on 5 MANZ (+ Big mek). Does anyone normally build all their weapon options for them with magnets? Looks like the claws / saws will swap onto the arm pegs, but I'm not sure what to do with the kombi weapons.

 kingbbobb wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

Also Goffs kultur, which kanz can't have. Goffs and Big Krumpaz have the same results.

Meganobs are core so they get +1to hit from the warboss aura. In general I would only go big krumpaz on manz if putting them on a teleporter. Don't want to lose goffs kultur

Well, big krumpaz bonus stacks with the warboss aura. Meganobz have a native -1 to hit, so they can +1 to hit from two different sources, to get a cumulative and final +1 to hit, aka hitting on 2s.

I really don't like how rokkit launchas are now heavy. It makes Tankbustas a lot less appealing and now I don't know what to do with the rokkits I have in my boys squads.

I guess I can use rokkit boyz as spanners in loota squads. It has the same range as the deff gun's short range, so if I move the lootas it doesn't matter if it has a hit penalty and if it's in range there's no point in moving unless I need to kite.

 Blackie wrote:
+2A for the pair of killsaw is totally unintentional. Otherwise also a single killsaw should have granted +1A. There's no other weapon that doesn't give extra attack but if you take two they both do.

One addtional attack for the pair is clearly RAI, and that's another mistake in this codex.

The double killsaw profile is only available on MANZ afaik. and it inflates the cost enough that a comparison between a 43pt TH/SS termiantor with 3 flat 3 damage thunder hammer attacks and a 45pt double killsaw MAN with 5 D3 damage killsaw attacks seems fairly fair, at least to me considering the defensive edge the termie gets.

Kebabcito wrote:
Bubblechucka is so random doing mathhammer is pretty useless, since his whole profile changes (You cannot say the average height of 2 persons is 1,85 when you've got Michael Jordan and Leo Messi as samples, variation is so high the result doesn't give you any information).

Averages are useless for bubblechukkas, not mathhammer in general. You can calculate the chances of each result happening and draw conclusions from there.

 Blackie wrote:

 kingbbobb wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

MANZ can take Big Krumpaz for +1 to hit with the Saws.

Also Goffs kultur, which kanz can't have. Goffs and Big Krumpaz have the same results.

Meganobs are core so they get +1to hit from the warboss aura. In general I would only go big krumpaz on manz if putting them on a teleporter. Don't want to lose goffs kultur

Well, big krumpaz bonus stacks with the warboss aura. Meganobz have a native -1 to hit, so they can +1 to hit from two different sources, to get a cumulative and final +1 to hit, aka hitting on 2s.

Big Krumpas doesnt stack with the warboss aura because warboss aura is <clan> only - and I actually do think not interacting with auras is intended for specialist mobz.

 Blackie wrote:

Well, big krumpaz bonus stacks with the warboss aura. Meganobz have a native -1 to hit, so they can +1 to hit from two different sources, to get a cumulative and final +1 to hit, aka hitting on 2s.

The warboss aura is linked to <CLAN>, which is removed when the MANZ take a specialist detachment. You'd have to bring the warboss as a specialist for another detachment for it to work I think.

 Jidmah wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
Bubblechucka is so random doing mathhammer is pretty useless, since his whole profile changes (You cannot say the average height of 2 persons is 1,85 when you've got Michael Jordan and Leo Messi as samples, variation is so high the result doesn't give you any information).

Averages are useless for bubblechukkas, not mathhammer in general. You can calculate the chances of each result happening and draw conclusions from there.

I haven't said mathhammer is useless. Mathhammer is the best tool to determine the right focus.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
+2A for the pair of killsaw is totally unintentional. Otherwise also a single killsaw should have granted +1A. There's no other weapon that doesn't give extra attack but if you take two they both do.

One addtional attack for the pair is clearly RAI, and that's another mistake in this codex.

The double killsaw profile is only available on MANZ afaik. and it inflates the cost enough that a comparison between a 43pt TH/SS termiantor with 3 flat 3 damage thunder hammer attacks and a 45pt double killsaw MAN with 5 D3 damage killsaw attacks seems fairly fair, at least to me considering the defensive edge the termie gets.

Deleted because I am wrong

Other argument for it being intentional is previously the 2nd killsaw was a discount, now its not.

like i said though i fully expect them to faq that and say nope only +1 attack for the pair, even though like kingbobb said that makes them fairly in line with termies (which is another point for not intended, orks dont get fair exchanges vs marines!)

They do compare well to vanilla termies. The problem is I haven't seen vanilla termies on the table since 5th edition.

i've been seeing them since they went to 3w

Then again my area isnt exactly hyper competitive so....moot point i guess lol

 Blackie wrote:
+2A for the pair of killsaw is totally unintentional. Otherwise also a single killsaw should have granted +1A. There's no other weapon that doesn't give extra attack but if you take two they both do.

One additional attack for the pair is clearly RAI, and that's another mistake in this codex.

Hard disagree. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened -- See Lightning Claws.

There is no clear intent here. It's just you need the pair to get the bonus attacks -- They want you to go the traditional double saw mode, not just take a single one. But you have that option if you really want.

It would also make the two traditional options a real choice. 35 ppm Klaw / KS is cheaper, but it doesn't hit nearly as hard at 3 attacks -- 5 attack Kill Saw for +10 ppm gets more pound per model (66% more attacks for about 33% more points per model), has a bit more unreliable damage and more AP.

If its only 1 attack, the kill saw option is untakeable. Per point, the klaw just has better output, as flat 2 > d3, especially with hit em harder allowing you to go to flat 3, and it's better to have more models than less if they are providing you with similar output.

I think playing this as RAW is totally fine. If they intended for you to only get 1 attack, it'll get FAQ'd eventually.

 koooaei wrote:
They do compare well to vanilla termies. The problem is I haven't seen vanilla termies on the table since 5th edition.

That's more due to their poor delivery rather than raw stats.

The only transport available to terminators is prohibitively expensive leaving their only delivery method as a turn 2 deep strike. Anti-tank/anti-elite melee units are much better when deployed via transport or some other more reliable delivery method that allows them to be slingshotted in rather than deep strike as it greatly reduces the impact of enemy screening chaff. (sidebar, this is why blood angels went from decent to so very, very bad just on the loss of their one stratagem that allowed the reliable delivery of a death star deep striking unit)

Some terminators with EXTREMELY good rules see some play as a melee unit like paladins and deathwing knights, but most typically the variants that see success are the ones that shoot first and punch secondarily in various chaos factions as a turn 2 hammer unit.

manz have good and even excellent delivery methods (trukk boy manz) that MEQs dont get that makes using them as a melee hard target removal tool much more viable. A battlewagon essentially provides a stripped-down version of a land raider crusader with absolutely zero of the fat, and trukk boyz as a tool is a top tier delivery mechanism - 20" move threat with a re-rollable charge and the option for advance and charge.

Yeah but you get 2-3 buggies for the price that don't need to go through all the hassle of being afraid to loose a trukk andget neutered for the most important part of the game, don't need to mellee something, exposing them to the whole enemy army t1, with easy access to -1 to hit...etc.

It's just the usual. Good stuff trumps mediocre stuff. You can run manz if you want but they're not what's winning you games, for the most part.

pepi55 wrote:
So turns out that grots arent useless after all.... I guess the reason they got nerfed is because with the boyz nerfs, only grots will be taken.

Grots not having obsec is probably supposed to mitigate that I think but not really successfully seems to be the case. Too bad for the boyz...

The "boyz are terrible" thing, does that also regard the snagga boyz? or are they fine to be taken for more that objective holding purposes?

Snagga's are just more expensive boyz. The benefit is S5, 6++ and their +1 to hit vs Vehicles/monsters. They still suffer the same issues as boyz (morale) and that T5 with a 6++ isn't that durable. In other words MSU, the one benefit that a lot of people overlook with Beast snaggaz is their Nob. The Nob gets a +2 strength -2AP 2dmg "Power Snappa" for free where as the Ork boyz have to pay for a Big choppa or PK on their nob. So the Nob is actually fairly under priced while the beastboyz themselves are over priced.

Overall boyz are over priced and not worth it and Snaggaz even more so. Anything they can accomplish can be done better and cheaper by other units.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Scactha wrote:
Goonhammer seems to disagree on Boyz

Ork Review

While goonhammer tends to write really good articles most of the time, their orks review is merely an average "blogger assumes orks work like marines" garbage post you can get pretty much everywhere.

I agree with Jidmah here, Goonhammer does tend to write good articles but they have almost never been correct about Orkz. Their staff probably never plays or plays against Orkz because they just really don't know what they are talking about when it comes to Orkz.

pepi55 wrote:

But why are we comparing to DE, admech and GK?
DE and admech are simply too cheap from what I understand so that battle is already lost until some kind of price change.
GK are comparable to custodes from what I know (dont have their codex to double check) and it sounds like youre comparing 9ppm units to units with ridiculous costs.

Im interested to hear how they compare on average against other armies.
I haven't heard a comparison against spehs mahreens and necrons yet. How do boys compare to those?
I know about MEQ wounds and stuff but I think 10 boys can handle a single squad of SM troops right?
Against necrons I myself only played 8th codex so im also curious how the new boyz can handle necrons.

9 Snaggaz charging into Marines get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds and 6 dmg for 3 dead Marines, the nob gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg. Thats 110pts killing at most 80pts, that is actually a really good return on investment...except that its in the assault phase rather then the shooting phase which means in order to get to this point they have to cross the entire board without getting mauled.

9 regular boyz get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds and 4.5 dmg and the nob with double choppas gets 5 attacks 3.2 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.1dmg So the 90pts of boyz kills 40pts of Marines and wounds a 3rd Marine. Same problem as the Snaggaz though, they have to actually get into CC to get those returns.

The theory right now, and I say theory because we haven't had enough games in yet to solidify it into a relative fact, is that Boyz are effectively dead in the competitive scene. I am really toying with the idea of MSU orkz though, as in 2 detachments of 120 boyz in 12mobz, That works out to 1,080pts, Add in the required 400pts for HQs and thats 500pts left over to fill in with MSU Kommandos and stormboyz. Sadly I just don't think its enough.

Everyone was harping on about how good T5 was and how it was going to break the game, in reality it means most common weapons went from wounding on 4s to 5s, and some of the lighter support weapons went from 3s to 4s (heavy bolters). And here is the problem, I ran green tide in 8th, it was not at all uncommon for me to lose 45+ boyz in a single round of shooting. With that in mind, if my opponent gets 1st turn they can easily whittle down several mobz with relative ease, and with so many MSU's none will really be a threat overload so he doesn't have to focus fire any single one down meaning he can go for morale deaths across several mobz with ease. Maybe at best the new "green tide" will be MSU Kommandos/stormboyz and that is about it.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah but you get 2-3 buggies for the price that don't need to go through all the hassle of being afraid to loose a trukk andget neutered for the most important part of the game, don't need to mellee something, exposing them to the whole enemy army t1, with easy access to -1 to hit...etc.

It's just the usual. Good stuff trumps mediocre stuff. You can run manz if you want but they're not what's winning you games, for the most part.

It depends on what you want in the list. melee units turn off/redirect shooting, secure objectives, gain cover bonuses, and ignore many common defensive abilities. typically melee units are more susceptible to enemy moveblocking but provide better scoring pressure in terms of denying an opponent the ability to score points.

two scrapjets deal about 1/2 as much damage against T7 3+ with their shooting as 3 goffs killsaw manz with their melee but

-their damage is roughly halved if the enemy has -1 to hit from dense or other abilites, versus the manz who are unaffected
-their damage is reduced more by enemy cover (-2AP rokkits) than killsaws (-4AP and the enemy needs the somewhat more unusual Heavy Cover)
-their damage is reduced by a shift by T8 or T5
-they have no access to offensive stratagems and gain less from their respective Waaagh

I dont think it's a situation of one is always better than the other. I think both MANz and Scrapjets can be used competitively (though I'm not 100% on whether scrapjets or deffcoptas work better in a shooty list, i'm kind of leaning towards koptas because I think their melee is better suited to the kind of incidental fighting theyll be engaged in)