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also dont underestimate the squad of 3 MANz sitting in cover near an objective.
Even without an invul they are not easily shaken off that objective, and unless all your vehicles are down they wont wanna fire the big guns at them either.

Buggies draw big gun fire and arent likely to survive it.

SemperMortis wrote:

Overall boyz are over priced and not worth it and Snaggaz even more so. Anything they can accomplish can be done better and cheaper by other units.

What is it about Stife Wyches that seems to make them a competitive piece but goff or trukk boyz are unviable in your opinion? Durability-wise the transports stack up reasonably (assuming an opponent never uses heavy bolter or autocannon equivalents raiders are 33% more durable but cost 26% more) and offense-wise the dark lance shot is made up for by just how much more damage goff boyz with a nob are going to do to hard targets than wyches with a hekatrix.

is it just the fact that theyre going to make that initial 14" movement with Fly as opposed to 12+d6" without fly?

 Jidmah wrote:
Found this Mathhammer stuff on mek guns on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/p0ehb9/ork_effectiveness_of_new_ork_mek_gunz/

Hilariously, bubblechukkas and KMK seem to be the best guns right now.

dunno about the bubblechukka, but when i used the Mek Gunz i ran them as Kustom Mega Blastas.

I Dunno why i would run smasha guns anymore. D3 shots at 48 inches seem worse to me than D6 shots at 36 inches that the KMK provides.

So yea, the KMK at least seem to be surperior her.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
also dont underestimate the squad of 3 MANz sitting in cover near an objective.
Even without an invul they are not easily shaken off that objective, and unless all your vehicles are down they wont wanna fire the big guns at them either.

Buggies draw big gun fire and arent likely to survive it.

Buggies also have easy access to -1 to hit modifiers and get ramshackle.

With that said, I've said from the very start that Ramshackle is HEAVILY over valued. I can't remember the last time I lost a vehicle to S7 and below firepower, but I can tell you with certainty that i've eaten more Melta/Multi-melta and Chicken Walker Lascannons in the last 3 months than I did in all of 8th

yeah I'm currently valuing ramshackle at next to nil. I guess we'll see if someone finds a super combo with the GK ranged weaponry or if after the admech nerfs drukhari become the army to beat and people start speccing in autocannon-alikes to try and combat them. That's really the only situation I can see where we'd start to get value out of ramshackle, but D6+2 and D3+3 is so massively undervalued atm that i can't see it happening, GW literally just did not realize that it nearly doubles damage output to go from D6 to D6+2 or D3+3 I think. not even to speak of the crazy gains you get from being able to gurantee 3+ damage.

3 manz are not a serious mellee threat. They even can't reliably kill a dreadnought. Even if you go double saws on all of them. Loosing a trukk t1 is easy....
Let's not go into it. There are pros and cons. And j do want manz to be good. I have 15 of them. But I've run 5 trukkboy manz in a 1k pt game where they should shine...and they didn't. Maybe I did something wrong but there were simply no targets for t1 charge. Than they killed some Marines and got mauled by dreads.

What about other armies they might encounter? De that right first. Da with a block of unkillable termies that fight first, dg with -1 damage and...fight first. So, what can I really killed with manz? Some basic troops camping in an objective? Some poorly-armed transport? I don't know, there seems to be less and less targets for such a unit each game.

Yes, I know you can pop hit harder and goff double hit on 5th on a unit of 10 double saw manz dropping from a wagon, pair their charge with a boss's +1 to hit aura, +1 attack wierdbiy spell and redder armor trike from another detachment and they'll kill most things they touch. But there's got a be a lot of convincing your enemy not to pop that wagon t1.

And small units...well, I'll probably still take a unit of 3 with rokkits. Probably, just foots logging as freebootas alongside the buggies cause why not. I've tried trukkboyz. They happened to be not nearly as good as I anticipates - mostly cause the meta has changed significantly.

except for killakanz im literally ignoring the existence of ramshackle.

My friends all think ramshackle is going to be ridiculous since ALL vehicles have it, not just dreads. I point out that they never actively take autocannons or heavy bolters, and everything else is either 1 damage or S8+ so you dont care anyway.
Those 2 guns exist sure but they arent intentionally taking them, so theyre just sprinkled around rather than trying to take a big blob of them.

edit: also whats with people constantly pointing out "they arent even that good at killing a dread"? THATS THE POINT OF DUTY ETERNAL!
The whole point of that rule is to stop higher number of attacks that do 2-3 damage from killing a dread super easy. Theyre supposed to get hit with the big guns or several flat3 damage hits.

MANz have always, ALWAYS been a bully unit. You dont ever send them at something they wont butcher, the hell would you have them face a dread for? Theyre unlikely to kill it barring some awesome rolls and its going to mulch them right back with its AP3 3D melee.
MANz are bullies. Bullies dont pick fair fights. Send them after primaris marines.

Ramshackle is great. A lot of armies rely on CC threats which are *not* STR 8 to deal with everything. Armies like say.. White Scars, Blood Angels are punching them in combat under str 8 (just two random examples).

It's just easy to counter it if it becomes a problem. The two Alberta GT placers probably abused the fact people aren't taking enough anti tank to deal with buggies like that and are instead relying on bulk, multi damage, lower str attacks in combat, or weapons like Vulkite, which is quite a bit weaker vs Orks than other armies.

 koooaei wrote:
3 manz are not a serious mellee threat. They even can't reliably kill a dreadnought. Even if you go double saws on all of them. Loosing a trukk t1 is easy....
Let's not go into it. There are pros and cons. And j do want manz to be good. I have 15 of them. But I've run 5 trukkboy manz in a 1k pt game where they should shine...and they didn't. Maybe I did something wrong but there were simply no targets for t1 charge. Than they killed some Marines and got mauled by dreads.

What about other armies they might encounter? De that right first. Da with a block of unkillable termies that fight first, dg with -1 damage and...fight first. So, what can I really killed with manz? Some basic troops camping in an objective? Some poorly-armed transport? I don't know, there seems to be less and less targets for such a unit each game.

Yes, I know you can pop hit harder and goff double hit on 5th on a unit of 10 double saw manz dropping from a wagon, pair their charge with a boss's +1 to hit aura, +1 attack wierdbiy spell and redder armor trike from another detachment and they'll kill most things they touch. But there's got a be a lot of convincing your enemy not to pop that wagon t1.

And small units...well, I'll probably still take a unit of 3 with rokkits. Probably, just foots logging as freebootas alongside the buggies cause why not. I've tried trukkboyz. They happened to be not nearly as good as I anticipates - mostly cause the meta has changed significantly.

I'm pretty sure 3x goff killsaw manz do reliably kill a dreadnought...I get 8.85 damage with average rolls. Remember that the average of D3-1 damage is actually 1.33 damage since you've got a spread of 1-1-2 as opposed to the usual 1-2-3. Against any other target without an invuln or -1 damage they average 13.3 damage and they just completely dont care about hit mods. Plus against any target you're worried about you can just pop hit 'em harder and they'll pretty much oneshot anything short of a knight (20W on average to a knight with killsaws is fairly respectable though I'd think)

I honestly dont think you ever really need more than 3 goff killsaw manz. Trukk boy killsaw manz you probably want 4 just to get that damage up to the breakpoint of "i'll kill basically any vehicle I care to in melee" - 10 manz is just a timmy piece, I'm more practical than that.

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Overall boyz are over priced and not worth it and Snaggaz even more so. Anything they can accomplish can be done better and cheaper by other units.

What is it about Stife Wyches that seems to make them a competitive piece but goff or trukk boyz are unviable in your opinion? Durability-wise the transports stack up reasonably (assuming an opponent never uses heavy bolter or autocannon equivalents raiders are 33% more durable but cost 26% more) and offense-wise the dark lance shot is made up for by just how much more damage goff boyz with a nob are going to do to hard targets than wyches with a hekatrix.

is it just the fact that theyre going to make that initial 14" movement with Fly as opposed to 12+d6" without fly?

The Wyches are deadly in their own right, but they also come in 2 squads of 5 rather than 1 of 10 so they get 2 Hekatrix instead of 1 Nob. On top of that, for 5pts you can upgrade the Raider with Chain snares, so it can turn 1 shoot its incredible heavy weapon and turn 2 charge in and do actual good CC dmg. 6 attacks at S7 AP-1 isn't anything to sneeze at, especially when its WS4 as opposed to the Trukk which is WS5. Add in the benefits of power from Pain and it gets progressively better, turn 3 its hitting on 3s and its Dark lance is unaffected by modifiers in CC so it can shoot while being stuck in. On top of everything else, its a cheap throwaway unit that can actually get work done or failing that, tie up enemy units while also inflicting dmg. And somewhat importantly, the Wyches also have decent pistols and BS. 10 pistol shots is 6.6 hits and 3.3 wounds against ANY infantry target thanks to poison. Those 10 boyz will get 10 shots, 3.3 hits and 1.6wounds against T4 and 1.1 against T5-7.

A unit of 5 wyches get 21 attacks, (26 with combat drugs) thats 14 hits and 5ish wounds vs T5 and below, so 10 will be 42 attacks, 28 hits and 9-10 wounds with about 2 of them being -2AP, A unit of 10 boyz (plus nob for 11) get 30 attacks (5 for nob) 20 hits (3.33for nob) 10 wounds (1.66 for nob) all at -1AP, the wyches are more durable in CC thanks to their 4+ invuln and in the shooting phase can actually hit stuff with their pistols. And to top all of that off, They are LD8 in units of 5 which means morale is all but eliminated from concern where as the 10 boyz have a significant concern from Morale, albeit not as much as a unit of 30 does.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
except for killakanz im literally ignoring the existence of ramshackle.

My friends all think ramshackle is going to be ridiculous since ALL vehicles have it, not just dreads. I point out that they never actively take autocannons or heavy bolters, and everything else is either 1 damage or S8+ so you dont care anyway.
Those 2 guns exist sure but they arent intentionally taking them, so theyre just sprinkled around rather than trying to take a big blob of them.

edit: also whats with people constantly pointing out "they arent even that good at killing a dread"? THATS THE POINT OF DUTY ETERNAL!
The whole point of that rule is to stop higher number of attacks that do 2-3 damage from killing a dread super easy. Theyre supposed to get hit with the big guns or several flat3 damage hits.

MANz have always, ALWAYS been a bully unit. You dont ever send them at something they wont butcher, the hell would you have them face a dread for? Theyre unlikely to kill it barring some awesome rolls and its going to mulch them right back with its AP3 3D melee.
MANz are bullies. Bullies dont pick fair fights. Send them after primaris marines.

...I mean except that they can and do kill dreads just fine.Pop 'hit em harder' and they can crack open a redemptor or whatever no sweat.

Ramshackle shines in melee, where most weapons are Str 6 or less and D2 or D3 is considered solid. Of course, a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer laughs at this, so pick your battles carefully.

Shoving even a Trukk against, say, Bladeguard Vets? Tank away!

SemperMortis wrote:

9 Snaggaz charging into Marines get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds and 6 dmg for 3 dead Marines, the nob gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg. Thats 110pts killing at most 80pts, that is actually a really good return on investment...except that its in the assault phase rather then the shooting phase which means in order to get to this point they have to cross the entire board without getting mauled.

9 regular boyz get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds and 4.5 dmg and the nob with double choppas gets 5 attacks 3.2 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.1dmg So the 90pts of boyz kills 40pts of Marines and wounds a 3rd Marine. Same problem as the Snaggaz though, they have to actually get into CC to get those returns.

The theory right now, and I say theory because we haven't had enough games in yet to solidify it into a relative fact, is that Boyz are effectively dead in the competitive scene.

This sounds to me like "ignore the boyz at your own peril".
They either get to the enemy shooty units and trade favourably, or your opponent doesnt shoot at whatever other threats you might have?

I can see the argument of using 90pts as fodder being too expensive but im too new to know whether that really is the case.

pepi55 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

9 Snaggaz charging into Marines get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds and 6 dmg for 3 dead Marines, the nob gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg. Thats 110pts killing at most 80pts, that is actually a really good return on investment...except that its in the assault phase rather then the shooting phase which means in order to get to this point they have to cross the entire board without getting mauled.

9 regular boyz get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds and 4.5 dmg and the nob with double choppas gets 5 attacks 3.2 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.1dmg So the 90pts of boyz kills 40pts of Marines and wounds a 3rd Marine. Same problem as the Snaggaz though, they have to actually get into CC to get those returns.

The theory right now, and I say theory because we haven't had enough games in yet to solidify it into a relative fact, is that Boyz are effectively dead in the competitive scene.

This sounds to me like "ignore the boyz at your own peril".
They either get to the enemy shooty units and trade favourably, or your opponent doesnt shoot at whatever other threats you might have?

I can see the argument of using 90pts as fodder being too expensive but im too new to know whether that really is the case.

Except its not "ignore the boyz at your own peril" thanks to splitfire and everything on the board, they will use their heavy weapons against your vehicles and use their light anti-infantry weapons against your boys. And to kill 5 beast snaggaz it takes 27 bolter shots, or 14 bolters or 7 Stormbolters. And when you kill 5 youve effectively gutted the unit and it likely fails morale and loses another 1 and at least 1 more to morale. At that point you can just plink the remainder away next turn with a few stormbolter shots.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
3 manz are not a serious mellee threat. They even can't reliably kill a dreadnought. Even if you go double saws on all of them. Loosing a trukk t1 is easy....
Let's not go into it. There are pros and cons. And j do want manz to be good. I have 15 of them. But I've run 5 trukkboy manz in a 1k pt game where they should shine...and they didn't. Maybe I did something wrong but there were simply no targets for t1 charge. Than they killed some Marines and got mauled by dreads.

What about other armies they might encounter? De that right first. Da with a block of unkillable termies that fight first, dg with -1 damage and...fight first. So, what can I really killed with manz? Some basic troops camping in an objective? Some poorly-armed transport? I don't know, there seems to be less and less targets for such a unit each game.

Yes, I know you can pop hit harder and goff double hit on 5th on a unit of 10 double saw manz dropping from a wagon, pair their charge with a boss's +1 to hit aura, +1 attack wierdbiy spell and redder armor trike from another detachment and they'll kill most things they touch. But there's got a be a lot of convincing your enemy not to pop that wagon t1.

And small units...well, I'll probably still take a unit of 3 with rokkits. Probably, just foots logging as freebootas alongside the buggies cause why not. I've tried trukkboyz. They happened to be not nearly as good as I anticipates - mostly cause the meta has changed significantly.

I'm pretty sure 3x goff killsaw manz do reliably kill a dreadnought...I get 8.85 damage with average rolls. Remember that the average of D3-1 damage is actually 1.33 damage since you've got a spread of 1-1-2 as opposed to the usual 1-2-3. Against any other target without an invuln or -1 damage they average 13.3 damage and they just completely dont care about hit mods. Plus against any target you're worried about you can just pop hit 'em harder and they'll pretty much oneshot anything short of a knight (20W on average to a knight with killsaws is fairly respectable though I'd think)

I honestly dont think you ever really need more than 3 goff killsaw manz. Trukk boy killsaw manz you probably want 4 just to get that damage up to the breakpoint of "i'll kill basically any vehicle I care to in melee" - 10 manz is just a timmy piece, I'm more practical than that.

Dreads are w10 with 5++ or w13. So, no, you won't kill them in one go. While they do.

SemperMortis wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Overall boyz are over priced and not worth it and Snaggaz even more so. Anything they can accomplish can be done better and cheaper by other units.

What is it about Stife Wyches that seems to make them a competitive piece but goff or trukk boyz are unviable in your opinion? Durability-wise the transports stack up reasonably (assuming an opponent never uses heavy bolter or autocannon equivalents raiders are 33% more durable but cost 26% more) and offense-wise the dark lance shot is made up for by just how much more damage goff boyz with a nob are going to do to hard targets than wyches with a hekatrix.

is it just the fact that theyre going to make that initial 14" movement with Fly as opposed to 12+d6" without fly?

The Wyches are deadly in their own right, but they also come in 2 squads of 5 rather than 1 of 10 so they get 2 Hekatrix instead of 1 Nob. On top of that, for 5pts you can upgrade the Raider with Chain snares, so it can turn 1 shoot its incredible heavy weapon and turn 2 charge in and do actual good CC dmg. 6 attacks at S7 AP-1 isn't anything to sneeze at, especially when its WS4 as opposed to the Trukk which is WS5. Add in the benefits of power from Pain and it gets progressively better, turn 3 its hitting on 3s and its Dark lance is unaffected by modifiers in CC so it can shoot while being stuck in. On top of everything else, its a cheap throwaway unit that can actually get work done or failing that, tie up enemy units while also inflicting dmg. And somewhat importantly, the Wyches also have decent pistols and BS. 10 pistol shots is 6.6 hits and 3.3 wounds against ANY infantry target thanks to poison. Those 10 boyz will get 10 shots, 3.3 hits and 1.6wounds against T4 and 1.1 against T5-7.

A unit of 5 wyches get 21 attacks, (26 with combat drugs) thats 14 hits and 5ish wounds vs T5 and below, so 10 will be 42 attacks, 28 hits and 9-10 wounds with about 2 of them being -2AP, A unit of 10 boyz (plus nob for 11) get 30 attacks (5 for nob) 20 hits (3.33for nob) 10 wounds (1.66 for nob) all at -1AP, the wyches are more durable in CC thanks to their 4+ invuln and in the shooting phase can actually hit stuff with their pistols. And to top all of that off, They are LD8 in units of 5 which means morale is all but eliminated from concern where as the 10 boyz have a significant concern from Morale, albeit not as much as a unit of 30 does.

1) competitive drukhari players are not ever taking chain snares to my knowledge. The risk of locking up a dark lance shot is not worth tying something up in melee and generally the raiders are used to secure midboard objectives if they survive t1.

2) generally both boyz and wyches advance the turn theyre delivered. pistols might conceivably be a factor turn 1 but it tends to be unlikely as you need to be hitting a unit within 2" of no man's land.

3) wyches only have superior durability in melee vs S5+ with at least -1AP, and even then it's only a 25% advantage. In my experience if you're actually using a unit like boyz/wyches intelligently (i.e. not flinging them into something like a fight-last character or something) you end up getting hit when you get interrupted by a unit like Intercessors with incidental melee capabilities. 10 wyches getting interrupted by 10 intercessors with a chainsword sergeant lose 7 models vs boyz who lose 5 with a wound on the nob.

4) you're accounting for Blade Artists and combat drugs and mentioning turn 3 WS2+ while ignoring Waaagh and Goffs entirely, which is a strange thing considering both units are going for a turn 2 tempo transport rush.

2x5 Strife wyches (i'll give them 10 pistol shots as well to account for the movement difference, we'll assume they don't have to advance and charge while the boyz do):

18.6 GEQ
8.9 MEQ (damage not models)
5.9 VEQ

1x10 Goff boyz (with Klaw nob to make the total pts comparison 195 v 170) on the waagh

18.9 GEQ
13.7 MEQ
8.7 VEQ

the dark lance on the raider can tag an extra 2.2 damage vs VEQ or 1.1 MEQ, and does fly. both advance and charge. The boyz even with morale factored in require more firepower to remove with common anti-chaff ranged weaponry and theyre generally equivalent vs common melee.

I’m in the camp that troops are a tax unit… in the sense I rather spend those points on kommandos, stormboys, squig riders, warbikers, etc then troops however you make do with what you have.

The only reason I would take snagga boys over regular boys is the fact Goff snagga boys are actually GOOD vs vehicles and monsters units… plus they are the only unit to embark on the Killrig which has a few overpowered combos.
BUT 10x Goff snagga boys charging into a vehicle/monster is 27x str 6 ap-1 d1 atks at 2+ ws plus 3x str8 ap-2 d2 at 2+ws. (This is without waaagh)

That’s not bad… but again the only reason I take them is because I rather pay for a Killrig then waste points on a trukk. But don’t send Goff snaggas into MEQ thats not the ideal target for them.. send them into vehicles and monsters… where that +1 to hit and str6/8 has a benefit.

SemperMortis wrote:
Except its not "ignore the boyz at your own peril" thanks to splitfire and everything on the board, they will use their heavy weapons against your vehicles and use their light anti-infantry weapons against your boys. And to kill 5 beast snaggaz it takes 27 bolter shots, or 14 bolters or 7 Stormbolters. And when you kill 5 youve effectively gutted the unit and it likely fails morale and loses another 1 and at least 1 more to morale. At that point you can just plink the remainder away next turn with a few stormbolter shots.

Okay, yeah that makes sense.

I am kind of happy for this though. if boyz were good, then what reason would you have to run kommandos/stormboyz?
Wasn't that the reason to not run those units in the previous edition? or am i misunderstanding something

Boys were the ones that could be made into Skarboys.

And they also had obsec, where Kommandos and such didn't (outside of skulls).

In the list that liked tide, you just went with Boys because it was cheaper and stronger overall.

I'd rather take Kommandos over boys though, that's for sure.

so now that boyz are equal in strength the kommandoz are a much more interesting unit right?

Boyz still have obsec and kommandoz still don't except for deffskulls so I dont know what you meant with that

 koooaei wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
3 manz are not a serious mellee threat. They even can't reliably kill a dreadnought. Even if you go double saws on all of them. Loosing a trukk t1 is easy....
Let's not go into it. There are pros and cons. And j do want manz to be good. I have 15 of them. But I've run 5 trukkboy manz in a 1k pt game where they should shine...and they didn't. Maybe I did something wrong but there were simply no targets for t1 charge. Than they killed some Marines and got mauled by dreads.

What about other armies they might encounter? De that right first. Da with a block of unkillable termies that fight first, dg with -1 damage and...fight first. So, what can I really killed with manz? Some basic troops camping in an objective? Some poorly-armed transport? I don't know, there seems to be less and less targets for such a unit each game.

Yes, I know you can pop hit harder and goff double hit on 5th on a unit of 10 double saw manz dropping from a wagon, pair their charge with a boss's +1 to hit aura, +1 attack wierdbiy spell and redder armor trike from another detachment and they'll kill most things they touch. But there's got a be a lot of convincing your enemy not to pop that wagon t1.

And small units...well, I'll probably still take a unit of 3 with rokkits. Probably, just foots logging as freebootas alongside the buggies cause why not. I've tried trukkboyz. They happened to be not nearly as good as I anticipates - mostly cause the meta has changed significantly.

I'm pretty sure 3x goff killsaw manz do reliably kill a dreadnought...I get 8.85 damage with average rolls. Remember that the average of D3-1 damage is actually 1.33 damage since you've got a spread of 1-1-2 as opposed to the usual 1-2-3. Against any other target without an invuln or -1 damage they average 13.3 damage and they just completely dont care about hit mods. Plus against any target you're worried about you can just pop hit 'em harder and they'll pretty much oneshot anything short of a knight (20W on average to a knight with killsaws is fairly respectable though I'd think)

I honestly dont think you ever really need more than 3 goff killsaw manz. Trukk boy killsaw manz you probably want 4 just to get that damage up to the breakpoint of "i'll kill basically any vehicle I care to in melee" - 10 manz is just a timmy piece, I'm more practical than that.

Dreads are w10 with 5++ or w13. So, no, you won't kill them in one go. While they do.

You don't find it just a TINY bit disingenuous to say "Dreadnought" (a 120pt T7 3+ W8 model) and mean "Redemptor or Relic Contemptor Dreadnought" (a 175 or 160pt+1cp model)?

So if you want to kill one of those for a ~125% points return, you take your min goff manz squad and you pop 'hit 'em harder', and kill them instantly.

But yeah, you're probably right, you could just take a paltry...let's see... eight scrapjets and do the same job against a redemptor - assuming your opponent doesn't use 1cp to pop smoke and roughly halve your firepower.

pepi55 wrote:
so now that boyz are equal in strength the kommandoz are a much more interesting unit right?

Boyz still have obsec and kommandoz still don't except for deffskulls so I dont know what you meant with that

Interestingly orks have alot of ways to gain objective secured and deny it. But I honestly haven't to looked at them that much

More fun to look at the killy stuff☺️

pepi55 wrote:
so now that boyz are equal in strength the kommandoz are a much more interesting unit right?

Boyz still have obsec and kommandoz still don't except for deffskulls so I dont know what you meant with that

Kommandos do definitely rock. Main reason I find myself bringing less of them is just the 3 squad limit and the lack of other units that really do their business on turn 1. Though you can use kommandos storm boyz and trukk boyz to make a super mean turn 1 oriented evil sunz melee waaagh list.

Boyz are useless at everything. His ObSec capabilities will be useless since they are not capable of tanking damage in an objective.

Freebooters or Deathskulls Stormboyz can broke the game since they can advance and steal primary objectives of your enemy whole game. Something that needs to be reviewed.

The killrig anti-ObSec relic in the middle of the board goes after.

Kommandos are just priced extremely well..
Not only are they more flexible with unit sizes as low as 5 models including a nob…
But 3+ sv in cover
+1 to wound in terrain (with an upgrade to get this even in the open)
A scout deployment option.
A ton of wpn options when your at 10 models…

But for some reason kommandos only pay 5pts for a pk making them the cheapest pk spam in game.
2 groups of 5 kommandos w pks cost 110pts
Whereas 10 boyz w pk cost 100

My only limitation to spamming kommandos units is 3 datasheets. But I would do mass Deathskull kommando spam if I could. For now kommandos best roll is cheap screen and denying redeployments

 the_scotsman wrote:


You don't find it just a TINY bit disingenuous to say "Dreadnought" (a 120pt T7 3+ W8 model) and mean "Redemptor or Relic Contemptor Dreadnought" (a 175 or 160pt+1cp model)?

So if you want to kill one of those for a ~125% points return, you take your min goff manz squad and you pop 'hit 'em harder', and kill them instantly.

But yeah, you're probably right, you could just take a paltry...let's see... eight scrapjets and do the same job against a redemptor - assuming your opponent doesn't use 1cp to pop smoke and roughly halve your firepower.

If your manz can reliably teleport into mellee with dreads without their trukk being shot down t1 and you're not playing vs hit first armies, by all means, go for it.

true. 10 kommandos with 1 powerklaw is 105 points i believe, 10 boys with 1 powerklaw is 100 points.

There seem to be very little incentive to use boys at all. at least before they got that +1 attack, now they dont. theres zero reason to go boys when you can go kommandos.

 the_scotsman wrote:

1) competitive drukhari players are not ever taking chain snares to my knowledge. The risk of locking up a dark lance shot is not worth tying something up in melee and generally the raiders are used to secure midboard objectives if they survive t1.

2) generally both boyz and wyches advance the turn theyre delivered. pistols might conceivably be a factor turn 1 but it tends to be unlikely as you need to be hitting a unit within 2" of no man's land.

3) wyches only have superior durability in melee vs S5+ with at least -1AP, and even then it's only a 25% advantage. In my experience if you're actually using a unit like boyz/wyches intelligently (i.e. not flinging them into something like a fight-last character or something) you end up getting hit when you get interrupted by a unit like Intercessors with incidental melee capabilities. 10 wyches getting interrupted by 10 intercessors with a chainsword sergeant lose 7 models vs boyz who lose 5 with a wound on the nob.

4) you're accounting for Blade Artists and combat drugs and mentioning turn 3 WS2+ while ignoring Waaagh and Goffs entirely, which is a strange thing considering both units are going for a turn 2 tempo transport rush.

2x5 Strife wyches (i'll give them 10 pistol shots as well to account for the movement difference, we'll assume they don't have to advance and charge while the boyz do):

18.6 GEQ
8.9 MEQ (damage not models)
5.9 VEQ

1x10 Goff boyz (with Klaw nob to make the total pts comparison 195 v 170) on the waagh

18.9 GEQ
13.7 MEQ
8.7 VEQ

the dark lance on the raider can tag an extra 2.2 damage vs VEQ or 1.1 MEQ, and does fly. both advance and charge. The boyz even with morale factored in require more firepower to remove with common anti-chaff ranged weaponry and theyre generally equivalent vs common melee.

The raider is 33% more durable vs anti-tank weaponry because of the 5++ invuln save, its also faster, has better WS, BS and LD. It comes bog standard with a CCW and a Heavy weapon that actually accomplishes things. It has a bunch of upgrades worth looking into. So yeah, it costs 25pts more but its worth a lot more than 25pts over the price of a trukk. For comparison, we can get a 5++ on trukkz/wagonz but it by itself costs 20pts And a Big shoota is over priced at 5ppm but DE can take a Dark Lance for 15ppm on most units. So a Trukk would be 65pts without its Big shoota, the Raider would be 80 without its Lance. That means GW has priced the ability to fly, +2 movement, +1WS +2BS and +1 leadership along with a 5++ invuln save and a +1S -1AP CCW at 15pts value. So just the comparison of Vehicles gives a MASSIVE edge in favor of DE. Now we can argue about whether the Raider is underpriced of the Trukk is overpriced that is fine, but as of now the DE have a significantly better delivery method for their CC troops.

Should I get a Wurrboy or a Wyrdboy?
On one hand the Wyrdboy gives me da jump, but the wurrboy seems overall better.

In the previous edition I would just take a warboss and a wartrike, but that's illegal now and the KFF mek doesn't seem worth it anymore.

That question is dependant on what your taking.
Personally neither psyker is worth taking solo
But since warlord rule forced us to chose something else
And let’s say you don’t want a shokk atk gun big Mek or the big Mek mega armor relic shoota teleporta point sink option.. and your not taking ghaz so Makari is useless… then maybe a psyker is worth looking into..

If your taking squigriders and/or have a delivery method to get your wurrboy in range to use his short range 9-12in powers then a wurrboy is okay
If you need da jump or a squad where warpath is decent then weirdboy
However with a Killrig and you essentially get a free wurrboy

Honestly if you absolutely need a second HQ maybe a painboss is okay… his 7in movement can just about keep him in range of squigriders…
We just don’t have good choices anymore
We might get lucky with buzzgrob I dunno.. his dread buffing ability might be usable.
Honestly I’d love for them to make the mekadread into an HQ that way you can truly build a real dread waaagh, but that’s not going to happen.