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rockyandadrianaaa wrote: Why I see people running 10 infiltrators/incursor in their WS list, can someone explain me how do they work on field?
Board control. Their job isnt primarily to kill things, its to start out in places where they *must* be removed, and if theyre not then they will rack up (or prevent) VP scoring, while potentially being a hassle and annoyance the entire game. Infiltrators specifically are used more for their anti-deep strike aura, which blocks off huge swathes of the table.
Keeping your opponent bottled up in their DZ for a turn or two is more than worth the 200 points you spend on those ten Primaris.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/25 21:08:21
rockyandadrianaaa wrote: Why I see people running 10 infiltrators/incursor in their WS list, can someone explain me how do they work on field?
Board control. Their job isnt primarily to kill things, its to start out in places where they *must* be removed, and if theyre not then they will rack up (or prevent) VP scoring, while potentially being a hassle and annoyance the entire game. Infiltrators specifically are used more for their anti-deep strike aura, which blocks off huge swathes of the table.
Keeping your opponent bottled up in their DZ for a turn or two is more than worth the 200 points you spend on those ten Primaris.
WS phobos infantry work really well with obscuration discipline powers, shrouding can protect a big unit of phobos, who can then temporal corridor across the board into a fight once deep strike threats have passed.
2020/08/28 04:21:33
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Here a Raven Guards player here.
How do you use them now.
I playing in an ultra greasy competitive league and my MVP Eraticators doen't trigger mortal wound on 4, mean they are less scary than ever.
Well, I'm eager to see the changes made by the new SM codex and its supplements for several chapters.
It will be interesting to see in which direction the codex will move - even more powerful builds or some leveling.
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hellpato wrote:Here a Raven Guards player here.
How do you use them now.
I playing in an ultra greasy competitive league and my MVP Eraticators doen't trigger mortal wound on 4, mean they are less scary than ever.
Any good tips.
I think you are still best off going successor with Master Artisan and either Stealthy or Long Range Marksmen. I don't think assault centurions are worth it at this point but aggressors with flamers are a really good target for Master of Ambush.
I have been using my Eradicators as suicide melta squads with strike from the shadows. With Master Artisan they don't really need support and it is very hard to screen from 24" meltas. I take 2 squads and put them in reserve. They will melt any mutliwound targets without an inv rather nicely just watch out for stuff like Forewarned.
Other than that I have found bikes, phobos units and FW dreads (Relic contemptors and leviathans) to be good regardless of chapter. Most of the stuff from indomitus is good. The captain is great with the burning blade. He is also a solid master of ambush. The bladeguard can be fun with advance and charge which RG get from the swift and deadly warlord trait. Outriders are solid. The lieutenant from indomitus actually has an inv which is nice. I am not 100% sold on the Judiciar myself or the new ancient.
Razerous wrote:What does the successor chapter trait "Stealthy" do? Specifically in 9th.
It gives you light cover if the enemy is beyond 12". The Rare Rules section of the rulebook goes into more detail (page 89 of CA 2020).
2020/08/28 22:51:30
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
hellpato wrote:Here a Raven Guards player here.
How do you use them now.
I playing in an ultra greasy competitive league and my MVP Eraticators doen't trigger mortal wound on 4, mean they are less scary than ever.
Any good tips.
I think you are still best off going successor with Master Artisan and either Stealthy or Long Range Marksmen. I don't think assault centurions are worth it at this point but aggressors with flamers are a really good target for Master of Ambush.
I have been using my Eradicators as suicide melta squads with strike from the shadows. With Master Artisan they don't really need support and it is very hard to screen from 24" meltas. I take 2 squads and put them in reserve. They will melt any mutliwound targets without an inv rather nicely just watch out for stuff like Forewarned.
Other than that I have found bikes, phobos units and FW dreads (Relic contemptors and leviathans) to be good regardless of chapter. Most of the stuff from indomitus is good. The captain is great with the burning blade. He is also a solid master of ambush. The bladeguard can be fun with advance and charge which RG get from the swift and deadly warlord trait. Outriders are solid. The lieutenant from indomitus actually has an inv which is nice. I am not 100% sold on the Judiciar myself or the new ancient.
Razerous wrote:What does the successor chapter trait "Stealthy" do? Specifically in 9th.
It gives you light cover if the enemy is beyond 12". The Rare Rules section of the rulebook goes into more detail (page 89 of CA 2020).
sorry it was not the eradicator but eliminators who trigger mortal wound on 4+.... my head was on eradicaror because i was thinking of what they can do.
i got 2 Derederos dread and in tactical phase the +1 to it and wound are very fun again single caracters a little too far away. For now i need to relearn the game and how to play RG
2020/08/29 00:15:19
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Razerous wrote:What does the successor chapter trait "Stealthy" do? Specifically in 9th.
It gives you light cover if the enemy is beyond 12". The Rare Rules section of the rulebook goes into more detail (page 89 of CA 2020).
Be prepared for the value of Stealthy to drop a bit. The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic (which includes Stealthy as one half of the rule) is changing in the 9th edition codex. It now provides the benefit of light cover against attacks from over 18" away and Infantry units gain dense cover if entirely on or within a terrain feature against attacks more than 12" away. This results in the loss of 6" on the automatic cover in an edition where you were already likely to lose it given how much more aggressive. You need to be on objectives, so this is going to be a major change up for preferred successor chapter tactics.
Master Artisans is also going to see a bit of a nerf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/29 00:16:59
2020/08/29 05:10:48
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Razerous wrote:What does the successor chapter trait "Stealthy" do? Specifically in 9th.
It gives you light cover if the enemy is beyond 12". The Rare Rules section of the rulebook goes into more detail (page 89 of CA 2020).
Be prepared for the value of Stealthy to drop a bit. The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic (which includes Stealthy as one half of the rule) is changing in the 9th edition codex. It now provides the benefit of light cover against attacks from over 18" away and Infantry units gain dense cover if entirely on or within a terrain feature against attacks more than 12" away. This results in the loss of 6" on the automatic cover in an edition where you were already likely to lose it given how much more aggressive. You need to be on objectives, so this is going to be a major change up for preferred successor chapter tactics.
Master Artisans is also going to see a bit of a nerf.
Wow. They need to revamp RG because I don’t see why I should play them when you remove all the little bits of bonus. They will be a generic SM.
2020/08/29 08:19:19
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Razerous wrote:What does the successor chapter trait "Stealthy" do? Specifically in 9th.
It gives you light cover if the enemy is beyond 12". The Rare Rules section of the rulebook goes into more detail (page 89 of CA 2020).
Be prepared for the value of Stealthy to drop a bit. The Raven Guard Chapter Tactic (which includes Stealthy as one half of the rule) is changing in the 9th edition codex. It now provides the benefit of light cover against attacks from over 18" away and Infantry units gain dense cover if entirely on or within a terrain feature against attacks more than 12" away. This results in the loss of 6" on the automatic cover in an edition where you were already likely to lose it given how much more aggressive. You need to be on objectives, so this is going to be a major change up for preferred successor chapter tactics.
Master Artisans is also going to see a bit of a nerf.
Wow. They need to revamp RG because I don’t see why I should play them when you remove all the little bits of bonus. They will be a generic SM.
they're still a damn solid chapter man.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/08/30 00:05:29
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Played vs another marine force, a successor chapter of ravenguard. I dont remember everything he had but things of note...
2 x Impulsor with 4++
Repulsor with twin las
2 x 5 hellblasters
Indominus lieutenant
Indominus captain
2 x tactical warsuits with autocannons
Game was over end of t2, one of the quickest games I have played of 9th. My eliminators killed one warsuit pretty much on their own (t1 they both hit and wounded and zeroed the guy to 1w which my own warsuit finished off) deep striking the Eradicators using ravenguard strat dropped the repulsor from full health to 1w (which an Aggressor with 1w left finished off in cc), the Judicar got the Aggressors into position to help protect the troops on the 2nd middle objective. The lieutenant and the captain did 2w to the Indominus lieutenant, which then died to a warsuit exploding.... they also killed 4 intercessors hiding in cover which did no good to them. Then shrike charged a squad of Incursors and wiped them out.
My point to all of this? Only ravenguard could get the aggressors up the field t1 so easily. Only ravenguard could easily ds the Eradicators so they were in the right place at the right time. Only ravenguard could get the captain and lieutenant to be such effective snipers / elite hunters. And only ravenguard has shrike. True others can hit just as hard as shrike but Shrike is a pretty damn cost effective for a chapter master. Heck just being in cover outside of 12" helped keep things alive.
So yeah, ravenguard are still a damn good chapter to use. You just have to maximize their strengths.
Do we think the “Indomitus” captain and lieutenant will have specific keywords like the “Phobos” ones did (maybe “Bladeguard”) Or will they just be models to represent new equipment for the generic Primaris captain and lieutenant?
2020/09/01 14:18:16
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
Played vs another marine force, a successor chapter of ravenguard. I dont remember everything he had but things of note...
2 x Impulsor with 4++
Repulsor with twin las
2 x 5 hellblasters
Indominus lieutenant
Indominus captain
2 x tactical warsuits with autocannons
Game was over end of t2, one of the quickest games I have played of 9th. My eliminators killed one warsuit pretty much on their own (t1 they both hit and wounded and zeroed the guy to 1w which my own warsuit finished off) deep striking the Eradicators using ravenguard strat dropped the repulsor from full health to 1w (which an Aggressor with 1w left finished off in cc), the Judicar got the Aggressors into position to help protect the troops on the 2nd middle objective. The lieutenant and the captain did 2w to the Indominus lieutenant, which then died to a warsuit exploding.... they also killed 4 intercessors hiding in cover which did no good to them. Then shrike charged a squad of Incursors and wiped them out.
My point to all of this? Only ravenguard could get the aggressors up the field t1 so easily. Only ravenguard could easily ds the Eradicators so they were in the right place at the right time. Only ravenguard could get the captain and lieutenant to be such effective snipers / elite hunters. And only ravenguard has shrike. True others can hit just as hard as shrike but Shrike is a pretty damn cost effective for a chapter master. Heck just being in cover outside of 12" helped keep things alive.
So yeah, ravenguard are still a damn good chapter to use. You just have to maximize their strengths.
I totally agree with you here. The Space Marines units are (at the moment at least) quite powerful and efficient on their own. We are better served with Chapter Tactics that mitigate our best unit's shortcomings, like speed for Aggressors/Bladeguard/Centurion with movement or deployement stratagems, or that increase their durability. Let's face it, a unit of Eradicators won't need much help to nuke a given target, so it is way more helpful to boost their durability so they can continue to nuke stuff than add an extra dmg or AP on top of their already impressive output.
@Azuza001 : I'm curious about the Instigator carbine on your Elminator Sergeant. Did you ever missed the extra Lasfusil? Are you always using the Sergeant's ability to boos hit and wound rolls? Also, is the different loadout on the Warsuit intentionnal or does it reflects how your models are built?
Praise the emperor, bless your weapon and pass the ammo!
What do people think about Imperial Fists in 9th edition? So far they seem to be hands down the weakest Space Marine chapter. Their chapter trait is meh since the nerf and their strategems, warlord traits, and psychic powers are horrible when compared to any other chapter.
Sluggaloo wrote: Why is this thread a thing? Codex isn't out yet, points will likely change, rules will be altered, stats bumped.
+1.
Like, it's fun to talk about things, but I think that the brief window while late 8th marines play in 9 after the major stat change previews we've seen don't amount to much.
Without knowing basic stuff like points or chapter tactics, and when unit price or one special rule can easily shift things between weak and OP (see: evolution of Marines over 8th), any speculation involves a lot of assuming things will stay basically the same. GW, who aren't exactly known for their precision, might turn this into a year of scouts or missile launchers or some stratagem that doesn't exist yet shaping how Marine lists are built.
Played vs another marine force, a successor chapter of ravenguard. I dont remember everything he had but things of note...
2 x Impulsor with 4++
Repulsor with twin las
2 x 5 hellblasters
Indominus lieutenant
Indominus captain
2 x tactical warsuits with autocannons
Game was over end of t2, one of the quickest games I have played of 9th. My eliminators killed one warsuit pretty much on their own (t1 they both hit and wounded and zeroed the guy to 1w which my own warsuit finished off) deep striking the Eradicators using ravenguard strat dropped the repulsor from full health to 1w (which an Aggressor with 1w left finished off in cc), the Judicar got the Aggressors into position to help protect the troops on the 2nd middle objective. The lieutenant and the captain did 2w to the Indominus lieutenant, which then died to a warsuit exploding.... they also killed 4 intercessors hiding in cover which did no good to them. Then shrike charged a squad of Incursors and wiped them out.
My point to all of this? Only ravenguard could get the aggressors up the field t1 so easily. Only ravenguard could easily ds the Eradicators so they were in the right place at the right time. Only ravenguard could get the captain and lieutenant to be such effective snipers / elite hunters. And only ravenguard has shrike. True others can hit just as hard as shrike but Shrike is a pretty damn cost effective for a chapter master. Heck just being in cover outside of 12" helped keep things alive.
So yeah, ravenguard are still a damn good chapter to use. You just have to maximize their strengths.
I totally agree with you here. The Space Marines units are (at the moment at least) quite powerful and efficient on their own. We are better served with Chapter Tactics that mitigate our best unit's shortcomings, like speed for Aggressors/Bladeguard/Centurion with movement or deployement stratagems, or that increase their durability. Let's face it, a unit of Eradicators won't need much help to nuke a given target, so it is way more helpful to boost their durability so they can continue to nuke stuff than add an extra dmg or AP on top of their already impressive output.
@Azuza001 : I'm curious about the Instigator carbine on your Elminator Sergeant. Did you ever missed the extra Lasfusil? Are you always using the Sergeant's ability to boos hit and wound rolls? Also, is the different loadout on the Warsuit intentionnal or does it reflects how your models are built?
Instigator carbines are there for protection. The srgs are always using their ability to boost hit and wound, and if someone did get near enough to charge them then there is the overwatch and then move 6" to get away trick. I have used it before to huge success, turning a "i am charging both the capain and the eleminators" to "but now they are too far apart from each other, i can't make both charges now and due to 9th ed rules the charge just fails......". Trick only works on an opponent once but man.... lol.
As for the 2 warsuits loaded different, I did it on purpose. Depending on the situation and the way things shake out during deployment the one with the incidium cannon goes up front to put pressure on the opponent t1 with the aggressors (or to split the opponents focus if the aggressors go in a different direction) and the other one can either also go up for support or hang back and protect the back line with his long range auto cannons.
Any tactics that we talk about at this point is pretty much general advice since, as others have pointed out, the new codex will have a huge impact on the game. I like autocannons for example, i plan on adding another 3 supressors to my army because they have autocannons. Will they be better or worse in the next codex? Who knows. But i like them so I will run them.
The new data sheet shown on the Heavy Intercessors on the preview opens up some harder hitting options for UM as they get to still move without penalty in tactical doctrine and also for the Devastator doctrine focused chapters! And all wrapped up in a 3wound T5 little suit!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus they are troops so we could have a fully gravis based infantry section to our armies now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 16:50:44
Obviously it all comes down to point costs, but I don't understand what niche the heavy intercessors are designed to do. Heavy intercessors are yet another platform for laying down shots that can shred infantry, just like most of the existing primaris line.
Str5 adds some nice versatility for dealing with higher T targets, especially T8, but assuming the heavy intercessor costs 30ish points, paying for that extra wound, T5, and the better gun, you've just lost 30-40% of your volume of fire vs taking regular intercessors and negated most of it. If a regular intercessor is 20, they can't be lower than say 27, right? But get into the upper 30s and the Aggressor is straight up better with the powerfists and double shot standing still.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 18:28:25
bort wrote: Obviously it all comes down to point costs, but I don't understand what niche the heavy intercessors are designed to do. Heavy intercessors are yet another platform for laying down shots that can shred infantry, just like most of the existing primaris line.
Str5 adds some nice versatility for dealing with higher T targets, especially T8, but assuming the heavy intercessor costs 30some points, paying for that extra wound, T5, and the better gun, you've just lost 30-40% of your volume of fire vs taking regular intercessors and negated most of it.
They're objective holders, plain and simple. Park a squad in cover next to a point, and you're going to need either a dedicated melee unit or anti-tank weapons to remove them. The range of all their weapons, even the "mobile assault" loadout is all about board presence over killiness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 18:29:39
Also then frees up the other intercessor troops to move up the board to claim more objectives allowing the heavies to cover fire and then the assault intercessors to sweep in from reserve and block retreat and butcher them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An all intercessor army with vehicle support could be viable
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 22:07:38
bort wrote: Obviously it all comes down to point costs, but I don't understand what niche the heavy intercessors are designed to do. Heavy intercessors are yet another platform for laying down shots that can shred infantry, just like most of the existing primaris line.
Str5 adds some nice versatility for dealing with higher T targets, especially T8, but assuming the heavy intercessor costs 30ish points, paying for that extra wound, T5, and the better gun, you've just lost 30-40% of your volume of fire vs taking regular intercessors and negated most of it. If a regular intercessor is 20, they can't be lower than say 27, right? But get into the upper 30s and the Aggressor is straight up better with the powerfists and double shot standing still.
The niche they fill is now someone can run an all gravis army, an all Phobos army, an all firstborn army, or an all intercessor army if they like.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
bort wrote: Obviously it all comes down to point costs, but I don't understand what niche the heavy intercessors are designed to do. Heavy intercessors are yet another platform for laying down shots that can shred infantry, just like most of the existing primaris line.
Str5 adds some nice versatility for dealing with higher T targets, especially T8, but assuming the heavy intercessor costs 30ish points, paying for that extra wound, T5, and the better gun, you've just lost 30-40% of your volume of fire vs taking regular intercessors and negated most of it. If a regular intercessor is 20, they can't be lower than say 27, right? But get into the upper 30s and the Aggressor is straight up better with the powerfists and double shot standing still.
The niche they fill is now someone can run an all gravis army, an all Phobos army, an all firstborn army, or an all intercessor army if they like.
what I think GW wants to do is allow space Marines to run an army that represents any of the ten space marine companies, The Phobos line means if I want to run then 10th company I absolutely can. the assault intercessor makes it effortless for me to run an 8th company list, heavy intercessors allow me to run a 9th company list. Literally the only Space Marine company I could not play with a battalion right now is 1st company.
I agree that heavy intercessors aren't in most cases going to be that great a choice although they may be a good choice to take instead of a heavy bolter devestator squad simply to save the heavy support slot for tanks etc. but yeah the intercessors is still going to be our go to troop choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: They have the “core” keyword. Army structure changes incoming?
Could be that Defenders of Humanity and similer abilities will be re-written to grant Objective secured to all "Core" Units. this would give GW a bit of flexability if they wanted to make say.. an elite unit that was capable of taking and holding an objective like a troop. (such as vetern intercessors just to use a Marine example) it could also be used to make some troop choices NOT get objective secured, if GW decided that say.... cultists shouldn't qualify for that since they're not part of the legion proper. etc.
GW could also use it for scoring in some objectives like "this objective can only be held by a 'core' unit" etc
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/13 11:06:00
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Depending on the points cost of a unit, 5 of these bad boys might be the best choice to camp the home objective while still contributing some firepower. Other than that, having more options is never a bad thing (unless you're a xenos player with 20 years old models :X )
2020/09/13 14:19:01
Subject: Re:9th edition Space Marine Codex Tactica
I'm starting to see land speeder tempests showing up in sm lists. Are they being used primarily for their speed and -1 to hit/only charged by flyer advancing rule to get on objectives and table quarters, etc? Assault cannons and D3 missiles are nice but I'm not buying it.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Why not, they're cheap for what they bring in firepower and they're quick. Even a Land Speeder with a single MM seems amazing, given the new 2 shots.
Yeah, I agree, I like stock land speeders with typhoon missiles and usually run 2 in my iron hands lists. But, even though they have similar names, I think they are different beasts due to the missile stats and the advancing rule and was just curious if people were taking the tempest over stock because they fill a role outside of shooting more often then not.
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