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I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound. Which will put Sternguard and Vanguard on par with Intercessors and Terminators on par with Gravis. I hope they leave regular Marines at one wound. This will hopefully carry over to Chaos with Cult Marines, Chosen, and Terminators getting an extra wound, but regular CSM staying the same.

If they boost Cult Marines, the extra wound on Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would help Death Guard and Thousand Sons out immensely.

 Oguhmek wrote:
I would love to see Necron Immortals go to 2W, that would make a lot of sense and make for a more meaningful differentiation between them and Warriors.

(Lychguard and Pretorians could then be 3W to constitute the next tier)

Alas, that is not going to happen...

We already know that necrons do not seem to be getting this mass blanket stat inflation.

Lychguard and Praetorians are getting +1A, no other stat change.

And only Rods of Covenant got +1D, no other weapons changed. Particle casters actually got weaker it seems. And a few necron units like spyders got significant boosts (+2W, much better in melee, worse in shooting) but we're 100% not seeing W3 elite units, or W2 warriors (unless indomitus is not the final statline) so I would be surprised to see W2 immortals.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound. Which will put Sternguard and Vanguard on par with Intercessors and Terminators on par with Gravis. I hope they leave regular Marines at one wound. This will hopefully carry over to Chaos with Cult Marines, Chosen, and Terminators getting an extra wound, but regular CSM staying the same.

If they boost Cult Marines, the extra wound on Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would help Death Guard and Thousand Sons out immensely.

I hope it's only veterans.
It makes sense, and helps GW phase out part of the old range eventually but keeping well-beloved kits (f e. Terminators) relevant.
The moment Tactical Marines or Devastators get 2 wounds, that's dead Primaris, though.

DanielFM wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound. Which will put Sternguard and Vanguard on par with Intercessors and Terminators on par with Gravis. I hope they leave regular Marines at one wound. This will hopefully carry over to Chaos with Cult Marines, Chosen, and Terminators getting an extra wound, but regular CSM staying the same.

If they boost Cult Marines, the extra wound on Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would help Death Guard and Thousand Sons out immensely.

I hope it's only veterans.
It makes sense, and helps GW phase out part of the old range eventually but keeping well-beloved kits (f e. Terminators) relevant.
The moment Tactical Marines or Devastators get 2 wounds, that's dead Primaris, though.

The concern I have is that Sternguard are 17 pts with their SI Boltguns compared to a 20 pt Intercessor. Not only would Sternguard be cheaper, but they would be *better*.

 Oguhmek wrote:
I would love to see Necron Immortals go to 2W, that would make a lot of sense and make for a more meaningful differentiation between them and Warriors.

(Lychguard and Pretorians could then be 3W to constitute the next tier)

Alas, that is not going to happen...

Well lychguard/praetorian thing isn't happening. Still slight chance for immortals though then likely would cost 20+ pts

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound. Which will put Sternguard and Vanguard on par with Intercessors and Terminators on par with Gravis. I hope they leave regular Marines at one wound. This will hopefully carry over to Chaos with Cult Marines, Chosen, and Terminators getting an extra wound, but regular CSM staying the same.

If they boost Cult Marines, the extra wound on Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would help Death Guard and Thousand Sons out immensely.

I hope it's only veterans.
It makes sense, and helps GW phase out part of the old range eventually but keeping well-beloved kits (f e. Terminators) relevant.
The moment Tactical Marines or Devastators get 2 wounds, that's dead Primaris, though.

The concern I have is that Sternguard are 17 pts with their SI Boltguns compared to a 20 pt Intercessor. Not only would Sternguard be cheaper, but they would be *better*.

No way are any of these models staying the same points with suddenly double the survivability. Expect to see 2W sternguard clocking in at 25-30 points,

I mean, ideally every datasheet we've seen so far will go up between 50-75% to counter both the additional stat boosts and whatever crazy BS they pack on to the Angels of Death special rule THIS time (my guess is that all hit rolls of 2+ generate 3 extra attacks against anything that doesn't have the SPACE MARINE keyword).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound. Which will put Sternguard and Vanguard on par with Intercessors and Terminators on par with Gravis. I hope they leave regular Marines at one wound. This will hopefully carry over to Chaos with Cult Marines, Chosen, and Terminators getting an extra wound, but regular CSM staying the same.

If they boost Cult Marines, the extra wound on Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would help Death Guard and Thousand Sons out immensely.

I hope it's only veterans.
It makes sense, and helps GW phase out part of the old range eventually but keeping well-beloved kits (f e. Terminators) relevant.
The moment Tactical Marines or Devastators get 2 wounds, that's dead Primaris, though.

The concern I have is that Sternguard are 17 pts with their SI Boltguns compared to a 20 pt Intercessor. Not only would Sternguard be cheaper, but they would be *better*.

Well new codex is coming and these are for that. There will be point changes in codex.

ERJAK wrote:

No way are any of these models staying the same points with suddenly double the survivability. Expect to see 2W sternguard clocking in at 25-30 points

How much is +1 AP worth, while at the same time loosing obsec? 5 pts? 2 pts? Is it even worth anything? If intercessors remain 20 ppm then Sternguard are pretty much DoA if they are even near 25+ ppm.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Power Axes Are +2/AP-2 (I was right!).

Told'ja there'd be a new profile for them.

It was odd to see everyone assuming the power sword would change but everything else would stay the same.

Why. Why did they make Thunder Hammers 4D?!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

My deathwatch would go from perma-shelved to "I might physically bury them in the backyard and dig them up when GW un-loses their mind"

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Power Axes Are +2/AP-2 (I was right!).

Told'ja there'd be a new profile for them.

It was odd to see everyone assuming the power sword would change but everything else would stay the same.

Definitely a ripple effect. I want to know what Power Mauls are now though. +3 Str? 2D? (Ooo, they would be like a poor man's power fist!). Also curious what the Lightning Claw icon means. But overall, I am liking the changes.

Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

That seems to be the case. They it really makes them stand out against the regular Marine counterparts.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

My deathwatch would go from perma-shelved to "I might physically bury them in the backyard and dig them up when GW un-loses their mind"

Why? Because they would be too good? They would likely get a hefty point increase. If Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would get the additional Veteran bonus, Deathwatch Veterans wouldn't be all that crazy.

I like the sound of Sternguard being W2 since I went have to really feel weirder about all mine being Mk3 and my Intercessor Stand-Ins being Mk3 with Shields. Interesting change.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Why? Because they would be too good? They would likely get a hefty point increase. If Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would get the additional Veteran bonus, Deathwatch Veterans wouldn't be all that crazy.

Vets are already overcosted relative to Primaris options for Deathwatch. An additional points increase would only further cement the disparity. Even with an additional wound.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I like the sound of Sternguard being W2 since I went have to really feel weirder about all mine being Mk3 and my Intercessor Stand-Ins being Mk3 with Shields. Interesting change.

Yeah, my 20 Sternguard went onto the shelf after I realized they don't offer much over Intercessors. If they would be at their current points and still have their guns for free, they might see play again.

Sterling191 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Why? Because they would be too good? They would likely get a hefty point increase. If Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would get the additional Veteran bonus, Deathwatch Veterans wouldn't be all that crazy.

Vets are already overcosted relative to Primaris options for Deathwatch. An additional points increase would only further cement the disparity. Even with an additional wound.

Maybe an extra wound without a points increase then?

tneva82 wrote:
Specifically loyal one. If you are loyal space marine you are master faction. If not npc is　your　status

Yeah, and that's why they had garbage rules for the 6th, 7th, and 3 years of 8th edition. I like how mere 6 months of SM being finally strong (then being hit by a big nerf, but it's not like whine cares about facts) somehow started mass revisionism that would make Eastasia from 1984 look like a paragon of free speech and discussion

Incidentally, Eldar and Tau were far more broken though the entirety of 6th and 7th edition than SM are now, and somehow, a lot of whiners who go about "npc" races back then just smugly said 'git gud' when someone pointed how garbage and unfun to play these races were. To the point that ""OP"" marines needed 500 points of free transports to compete, and even then it was mostly bunkering down in metal boxes and hoping you will somehow scrape minor victory on points before said two factions effortlessly table you.

Wake me up when SM get a titan throwing buckets of mortal wounds for 190 pts, can make the entire army only be hit on 6s, move and shoot twice per turn, or outright leave the table before the opponents turn to make them completely immune to shooting and melee. Oh, and no nerf at all to the above garbage in both editions. Poor xenos, instead of autowin they only have a handful of units stronger than anything SM can field now, whatever they will do?!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Why? Because they would be too good? They would likely get a hefty point increase. If Plague Marines and Rubric Marines would get the additional Veteran bonus, Deathwatch Veterans wouldn't be all that crazy.

Abso-goddamn-lutely they would be far too good, are you kidding? I put Deathwatch down on the table now and they outshoot Tau gunlines without even breaking a sweat, I would never put them on the table against someone not also bringing marines. with W3 terminators and W2 veterans they'd be hideous, and I have ZERO faith in GW's ability to reasonably price those buffs after the supplements and the garbage fire of the 9th ed points update.

Why anyone would think these changes are going to have any kind of common sense price boosts behind them or any kind of corresponding buffs to other factions is absolutely beyond me. Our current codex release schedule is basically back-to-back space marine codexes.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Power Axes Are +2/AP-2 (I was right!).

Told'ja there'd be a new profile for them.

It was odd to see everyone assuming the power sword would change but everything else would stay the same.

Definitely a ripple effect. I want to know what Power Mauls are now though. +3 Str? 2D? (Ooo, they would be like a poor man's power fist!). Also curious what the Lightning Claw icon means. But overall, I am liking the changes.

The Indomitus chaplain's crozius gained +1S, so I'd expect power mauls to be similar.

The LC icon (I assume you mean the star in the circle) just means 'user's strength,' same as the chainsword.

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

There's a veteran intercessor entry in the new codex contents from a screen shot I think from memory, so they'd be up to 3 wounds following that logic. Leaves chaos marines in an odd spot unless they're going to finally separate renegades from traitor legions.

Dudeface wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

There's a veteran intercessor entry in the new codex contents from a screen shot I think from memory, so they'd be up to 3 wounds following that logic. Leaves chaos marines in an odd spot unless they're going to finally separate renegades from traitor legions.

Why wouldn't veterans of both 'types' exist?

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking it is just Veterans that get the extra Wound.

Thinking about this a bit more, I suspect you're right. The new Bladeguard Veterans have three wounds. So perhaps the new logic is that the veteran marines get +1 to attacks, wounds and Ld?

There's a veteran intercessor entry in the new codex contents from a screen shot I think from memory, so they'd be up to 3 wounds following that logic. Leaves chaos marines in an odd spot unless they're going to finally separate renegades from traitor legions.

Why wouldn't veterans of both 'types' exist?

They would, but a veteran renegade is essentially a chosen, where as a vanguard vet etc. is rocking the same experience equivalent as a legion marine.

Having mini marines at 1 wound then suddenly become 2 wounds because they painted a star on a shoulder makes no sense, likewise a veteran mini marine at 100 years service being 2 wounds but someone with 10k years of experience fighting in a hellscape being 1 wound does't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quote from Armillion over on B&C "Also, opened one of the new box style vindicators last week and saw that HK missiles are apparently S10 now?"

 Stormonu wrote:
Too bad GW didn't do indexes for 9th. It would be nice if they're going to do an edition change if they give each faction a fleshed-out baseline preview of what will change.

It would elevate all the factions to the same starting block, get rid of dead abilities and codexes could become "advanced" supplements that add more exciting and tactical options (that are pointed in some way, instead of just "free")

Basically, build out the bones and flesh the system out during its lifetime. But that's just not GW's way.

Honestly I still wouldn't rule this out for several reasons:

It would be really weird to change generic weapons like power fists or multi-meltas for just one faction, without changing it for all the others.

The strange points level decisions would make more sense if they were planning to revise a bunch of units & wargear.

One of the early reviews by 9E playtesters (I think TTT) heavily implied that something else was coming they couldn't talk about yet.

We know new units are coming for several factions, but there's no sign yet of an accompanying codex or expansion book

GW could plausibly print something like "Index: Imperium 2020" and "Index: Xenos 2020", where some units & wargear recieve revised rules to supersede the codex. One cheap book like the original indexes can cover several factions at once, and means they recieve major updates without needing a whole new codex. GW can sell that to a wide range of players, or simply put the updated rules in their app to encourage people to subscribe.

I'm not following. 'Renegades' are former loyalist marines fighting in real space for essentially a lifetime. They'd have just as many veterans as a loyalist chapter.

Legionnaires are subject to the timey-whimey nonsense of the Eye. When it comes down to it, most don't have 10000 years of battlefield experience. Talons and First Claw of the night lords had 300 (well within the normal life span of loyalists), Bile was... Inactive for indeterminate stretches of time, Ahriman's journey involves powering down to petty sorcerer levels for an extended period, followed by an actual time loop, etc

Either is equally qualified to claim whatever GW means by 'veteran' status.

Voss wrote:
I'm not following. 'Renegades' are former loyalist marines fighting in real space for essentially a lifetime. They'd have just as many veterans as a loyalist chapter.

Legionnaires are subject to the timey-whimey nonsense of the Eye. When it comes down to it, most don't have 10000 years of battlefield experience. Talons and First Claw of the night lords had 300 (well within the normal life span of loyalists), Bile was... Inactive for indeterminate stretches of time, Ahriman's journey involves powering down to petty sorcerer levels for an extended period, followed by an actual time loop, etc

Either is equally qualified to claim whatever GW means by 'veteran' status.

Look at it through this perspective: Renegades are loyalist chapters who have turned, often still with the same equipment and equivalent experience, so it makes sense for their profiles to match the classic marines. The basic marine will have a tac marine stat line. If tacs have 2 wounds, it makes sense that a basic chaos marine does by extension. No problem so far.

Other option is veterans get +1 wound so classic marine veteran getting 2 wounds and a tac marine having 1. A renegade chaos marine is therefore 1 wound. An Iron warriors legionary who has been around since istvaan may well have 300+ years real time experience - that may be more than a vanguard veteran. The vangaurd veteran gets 2 wounds, but the iron warrior is still a "chaos space marine" so gets a tac marines stats - 1 wound -despite being likely more experienced than the vanguard vet.

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:
I'm not following. 'Renegades' are former loyalist marines fighting in real space for essentially a lifetime. They'd have just as many veterans as a loyalist chapter.

Legionnaires are subject to the timey-whimey nonsense of the Eye. When it comes down to it, most don't have 10000 years of battlefield experience. Talons and First Claw of the night lords had 300 (well within the normal life span of loyalists), Bile was... Inactive for indeterminate stretches of time, Ahriman's journey involves powering down to petty sorcerer levels for an extended period, followed by an actual time loop, etc

Either is equally qualified to claim whatever GW means by 'veteran' status.

Look at it through this perspective: Renegades are loyalist chapters who have turned, often still with the same equipment and equivalent experience, so it makes sense for their profiles to match the classic marines. The basic marine will have a tac marine stat line. If tacs have 2 wounds, it makes sense that a basic chaos marine does by extension. No problem so far.

Other option is veterans get +1 wound so classic marine veteran getting 2 wounds and a tac marine having 1. A renegade chaos marine is therefore 1 wound. An Iron warriors legionary who has been around since istvaan may well have 300+ years real time experience - that may be more than a vanguard veteran. The vangaurd veteran gets 2 wounds, but the iron warrior is still a "chaos space marine" so gets a tac marines stats - 1 wound -despite being likely more experienced than the vanguard vet.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Your Istvaan vet is a Chosen (which would presumably have 2W), and your theoretical 1-wound CSM trooper is a replacement recruit that we know all the chaos legions have. A lot of ink has been spilled on chaos legions scrambling for gene seed and recruits.

So if additional wound veteran you needs a complex explanation (which I'm not really convinced it does), it already exists.

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:
I'm not following. 'Renegades' are former loyalist marines fighting in real space for essentially a lifetime. They'd have just as many veterans as a loyalist chapter.

Legionnaires are subject to the timey-whimey nonsense of the Eye. When it comes down to it, most don't have 10000 years of battlefield experience. Talons and First Claw of the night lords had 300 (well within the normal life span of loyalists), Bile was... Inactive for indeterminate stretches of time, Ahriman's journey involves powering down to petty sorcerer levels for an extended period, followed by an actual time loop, etc

Either is equally qualified to claim whatever GW means by 'veteran' status.

Look at it through this perspective: Renegades are loyalist chapters who have turned, often still with the same equipment and equivalent experience, so it makes sense for their profiles to match the classic marines. The basic marine will have a tac marine stat line. If tacs have 2 wounds, it makes sense that a basic chaos marine does by extension. No problem so far.

Other option is veterans get +1 wound so classic marine veteran getting 2 wounds and a tac marine having 1. A renegade chaos marine is therefore 1 wound. An Iron warriors legionary who has been around since istvaan may well have 300+ years real time experience - that may be more than a vanguard veteran. The vangaurd veteran gets 2 wounds, but the iron warrior is still a "chaos space marine" so gets a tac marines stats - 1 wound -despite being likely more experienced than the vanguard vet.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Your Istvaan vet is a Chosen (which would presumably have 2W), and your theoretical 1-wound CSM trooper is a replacement recruit that we know all the chaos legions have. A lot of ink has been spilled on chaos legions scrambling for gene seed and recruits.

So if additional wound veteran you needs a complex explanation (which I'm not really convinced it does), it already exists.

Ok but you'd then have to limit veterans of the long war to chosen only really at that point. Either way it'll be interesting to see how it'll be tackled and I dare say there'll be some teeth gnashing regardless.

Dudeface wrote:
Ok but you'd then have to limit veterans of the long war to chosen only really at that point. Either way it'll be interesting to see how it'll be tackled and I dare say there'll be some teeth gnashing regardless.

Well, there are a couple ways of dealing with it (including pre-game strats, similar to the 'veteran intercessor' strat in the current SM codex), but definitely yeah, there will be teeth gnashing, warranted or not, even if they somehow find the 'world's best' solution
Ignore-able or not will be the important question.

Deathwatch will be interesting, considering all their troops are veterans in name...

Anyway, I actually don't mind as an imperial player chaos marines getting +1 wound, especially if they are from the traitor legions and not renegade marines (a distinction that should be made) as they will all be veterans of some sort.

Anyway, give them two wounds, just cost them appropriately and I'm all good, it would offset the imbalances caused between chaos and imperium in that they should fairly be a mirror of each other in ways, but with the flavour being super different... Chaos don't get combat doctrines, but increased durability. Renegade marines get combat doctrines (of some sort) but no +1 wound... Get the point costs right and it's all good.

Watch as they give Chosen W2 but forget to give Havocs, monstrous T5 marines, W2.