Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Voss**

Wait...

'And they shall know no fear' changed. No more reroll.
Now they ignore combat attrition modifiers (like -1 for half strength, or presumably penalties imposed by enemy special rules).

Not sure how I feel about it, or if it really matters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did outrider sgts pick up close combat options, and can you take more than 3 in a unit?

No, and no.

I might have missed someone posting it, but here you can find all the marine points: https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Sadly, HS past the Land Raiders, plus Transports and Flyers fell of the back of the bus

Though the Repulsors and Impulsor and a couple others were up on other links, last picture here-
https://imgur.com/a/wtxOd5D

**Slayer-Fan123**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it is. Just click on the pic and it zoooooooooms in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is stupid. If you dont want Sternguard in your Dark Angels successor, JUST DON'T TAKE THEM.
Sternguard are in power armour. Dark Angel 1st Company is the Deathwing, and they're 100% Terminator armour...

... unless you buy the shiny new Primaris kits! They can be Deathwing as well.

Games Workshop - "Buy All Our Playsets & Toys!"

It's difference for the sake of just being different. They have Vets that can get the same loadout as Sternguard or foot Vanguard to begin with. It's stupid and screw pretending they and their successors are THAT super different.

**Coolyo294**

So for the relic terminators, did tartaros and cataphractii armor get flattened into one generic terminator profile or did they retain their unique characteristics?

**Crazyterran**

Jidmah wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did outrider sgts pick up close combat options, and can you take more than 3 in a unit?

No, and no.

I might have missed someone posting it, but here you can find all the marine points: https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Unless I'm just blind, I'm not seeing the points for Rhinos/Razors/Impulsors/that other one/Storms

**BorderCountess**

Crazyterran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did outrider sgts pick up close combat options, and can you take more than 3 in a unit?

No, and no.

I might have missed someone posting it, but here you can find all the marine points: https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Unless I'm just blind, I'm not seeing the points for Rhinos/Razors/Impulsors/that other one/Storms

You're not blind, and there's a finger over one of the points values I really wanted to see - Attack Bikes.

**casvalremdeikun**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did outrider sgts pick up close combat options, and can you take more than 3 in a unit?

No, and no.

I might have missed someone posting it, but here you can find all the marine points: https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Unless I'm just blind, I'm not seeing the points for Rhinos/Razors/Impulsors/that other one/Storms

You're not blind, and there's a finger over one of the points values I really wanted to see - Attack Bikes.

45 pts per model, +10 pts for a Multi-Melta.

**changemod**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it is. Just click on the pic and it zoooooooooms in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is stupid. If you dont want Sternguard in your Dark Angels successor, JUST DON'T TAKE THEM.
Sternguard are in power armour. Dark Angel 1st Company is the Deathwing, and they're 100% Terminator armour...

... unless you buy the shiny new Primaris kits! They can be Deathwing as well.

Games Workshop - "Buy All Our Playsets & Toys!"

Well, that’s why dark angels have company veterans. Presumably we’ll get some kind of primaris that markets on the iconic silhouette of a terminator around wave four or five when they flesh out first company primaris fully.

(Do you think we should remind the guy in charge of working out how primaris fit into existing company veterans exist, or would that be impolite after he already messed it up?)

**Tiberius501**

How does the silent king seem to fit in? Worth his points or is he a sad wasted opportunity? He seems pretty awesome but 450pts is pretty hurty.

**Virules**

Tiberius501 wrote:
How does the silent king seem to fit in? Worth his points or is he a sad wasted opportunity? He seems pretty awesome but 450pts is pretty hurty.

Having looked through the codex myself, the Silent King is even better than previewed. Like, a lot better. Wowza. Hello auto explode for 1 CP for 2d6" explosion of d6" mortal wounds per unit. Or how about the fact that seems like menhirs can be overkilled on damage without excess bleeding onto the next menhir or the Silent King? Or the 1 CP strat to count as full profile if he's damaged? And then there's the extra shooting attack and the extra melee attacks from his little triumvirate dudes, when SK has enough wounds left that they are still kicking.

**Tiberius501**

Virules wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
How does the silent king seem to fit in? Worth his points or is he a sad wasted opportunity? He seems pretty awesome but 450pts is pretty hurty.

Having looked through the codex myself, the Silent King is even better than previewed. Like, a lot better. Wowza. Hello auto explode for 1 CP for 2d6" explosion of d6" mortal wounds per unit. Or how about the fact that seems like menhirs can be overkilled on damage without excess bleeding onto the next menhir or the Silent King? Or the 1 CP strat to count as full profile if he's damaged? And then there's the extra shooting attack and the extra melee attacks from his little triumvirate dudes, when SK has enough wounds left that they are still kicking.

Nice. Do his 2 buddies hilariously come back to life when he uses the strat to count as having full wounds?

**Kharne the Befriender**

Tiberius501 wrote:
Virules wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
How does the silent king seem to fit in? Worth his points or is he a sad wasted opportunity? He seems pretty awesome but 450pts is pretty hurty.

Having looked through the codex myself, the Silent King is even better than previewed. Like, a lot better. Wowza. Hello auto explode for 1 CP for 2d6" explosion of d6" mortal wounds per unit. Or how about the fact that seems like menhirs can be overkilled on damage without excess bleeding onto the next menhir or the Silent King? Or the 1 CP strat to count as full profile if he's damaged? And then there's the extra shooting attack and the extra melee attacks from his little triumvirate dudes, when SK has enough wounds left that they are still kicking.

Nice. Do his 2 buddies hilariously come back to life when he uses the strat to count as having full wounds?

I don't think so, the rule that states when you lose abilities keys off his current wound count, so unless the strat specifies counting as having full wound then probably not.

Definitely worth it to bring a technomancer with cloak though

**Tiberius501**

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
Virules wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:
How does the silent king seem to fit in? Worth his points or is he a sad wasted opportunity? He seems pretty awesome but 450pts is pretty hurty.

Having looked through the codex myself, the Silent King is even better than previewed. Like, a lot better. Wowza. Hello auto explode for 1 CP for 2d6" explosion of d6" mortal wounds per unit. Or how about the fact that seems like menhirs can be overkilled on damage without excess bleeding onto the next menhir or the Silent King? Or the 1 CP strat to count as full profile if he's damaged? And then there's the extra shooting attack and the extra melee attacks from his little triumvirate dudes, when SK has enough wounds left that they are still kicking.

Nice. Do his 2 buddies hilariously come back to life when he uses the strat to count as having full wounds?

I don't think so, the rule that states when you lose abilities keys off his current wound count, so unless the strat specifies counting as having full wound then probably not.

Definitely worth it to bring a technomancer with cloak though

Yeah I will pretty much have a technomancer with a cloak in every game haha.

Also I’m a little sad Reanimators don’t have an Invuln save or anything. Are they easy enough at least to hide behind obscuring terrain and still reach units with their beam?

**Virules**

No, it is just that he counts as top bracket for wounds until your next command phase.

**stratigo**

Red Corsair wrote:
nintura wrote:
watching this vid and it's just dumb. A gravis captain starts at 7 wounds? goes to 8 with the relic that ALSO gives +1 toughness and an auto 2+ save? 8 wounds at toughness 6? really?

There isa WLT for sallies that adds +2 toughness on top of that.

The worst offender so far in the marine book is duty eternal stock on all dreads... That is just stupid.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
nintura wrote:
watching this vid and it's just dumb. A gravis captain starts at 7 wounds? goes to 8 with the relic that ALSO gives +1 toughness and an auto 2+ save? 8 wounds at toughness 6? really?

.
Hmmm. I feel the need to point out that some of that already existed in the current codex. The 7 wound gravis profile certainly did, and while that specific combination wasn't available (in the base codex), 3++ saves are also just gone, so a lot of shenanigans are as well.
And that you need to pay 40 points for the Chapter Master upgrade to get access to that relic.
And gravis captains (and therefor the Chapter Master) are _really_ limited in their gear choices, which reduces their offensive output a lot.

Also given the offensive output of weapons now... trying to tank things out with your Warlord is far from the most broken thing you can do (and likely won't be very successful)

having only 1 captain per detachment is also huge. It stops the triple smash fether BS. Or at least makes it very hard to pull.

Anti tank is ramping up super hard right now, so I don't actually think duty eternal will be that great for dreadnoughts against new codex armies with the hard ramp of melta weapons and all the necron tank destroying stuff. It'll be a slog for older armies because they havn't gotten themselves the buff to AT yet, but GW has clearly decided the game has to be even more deadly now.

**Spoletta**

Not exactly.
The game is deadlier on the AT sides and is getting some heavy melee hitters, but the shooting in general is being restricted.

Marines surely shoot less in this codex (CM nerf, salamander nerf, aggressor nerf, graviton nerf...), and the necrons never had a really good one apart from destroyers, which got nerfed.

Also, both codici are ripe with defensive buffs and rules.

An 8th edition codex is perfectly in line if not more powerful that those new dexes on the shooting side.
Where the gap is really evident is on AT and melee. One of those skorphek destroyers hits harder than a carnifex in melee.

**Spreelock**

Okay, i'm having trouble with those images from imgur.. how do you view them without blur? Any advice are appreciated.

**Jidmah**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That is NOT readable at all.

If you are serious about that, I suggest getting your eyes checked then?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Uriels_Flame wrote:
Did outrider sgts pick up close combat options, and can you take more than 3 in a unit?

No, and no.

I might have missed someone posting it, but here you can find all the marine points: https://imgur.com/a/SdF2q43

Unless I'm just blind, I'm not seeing the points for Rhinos/Razors/Impulsors/that other one/Storms

You're not blind, and there's a finger over one of the points values I really wanted to see - Attack Bikes.

Yeah, I didn't check for every unit since I don't play marines myself. I just saw it on reddit and posted the link here.

**Insularum**

Coolyo294 wrote:
So for the relic terminators, did tartaros and cataphractii armor get flattened into one generic terminator profile or did they retain their unique characteristics?

They are one generic unit now, with standard terminator profile, tartaros is not fast, cataphractii is not slow or more durable. They can be equiped with any combo of stuff from the plastic GW kits, no FW 30k options and still no tele homer though. I think cataphractii captain is gone too although not 100% on that.

Looks like reaper cannon is now ap2 and claws are +1 attack each, not just for a pair. Looks like the only really advantage these have other generic terminators is mixing claws and guns, or putting a x2 str weapon on the sarge.

**Cronch**

seeing all those 19's, 28's and other weird point numbers, I am now 100% convinced the devs assign those at random. They go "this unit is roughly worth 20pts per model" and then fiddle it so it looks like Rigorous Playtesting made them realize it is in fact exactly ONE point less capable than 20pts.

**tneva82**

You think all should cost 20, 30 etc? Despite that being logical impossibity correct price is not such convenient numbers. I don't know how correct these　are but were points always divisible by 5 it would be 100% sure proof they are wrong

**McMagnus Mindbullets**

Cronch wrote:
seeing all those 19's, 28's and other weird point numbers, I am now 100% convinced the devs assign those at random. They go "this unit is roughly worth 20pts per model" and then fiddle it so it looks like Rigorous Playtesting made them realize it is in fact exactly ONE point less capable than 20pts.

They are not 'weird'.

When 9th dropped, all of a sudden everything was a multiple of 5. Which was stupid.

Now there's been a couple months for Devs to see how that shakes out, they can make small adjustments based on performance. A point either side on a model is a lot when you take 20 in a list.

**unitled**

Cronch wrote:
seeing all those 19's, 28's and other weird point numbers, I am now 100% convinced the devs assign those at random. They go "this unit is roughly worth 20pts per model" and then fiddle it so it looks like Rigorous Playtesting made them realize it is in fact exactly ONE point less capable than 20pts.

I doubt they balanced based on individual model costs, remember that at 10 models that swing between 19 and 21 for individual models is a 20 point swing for the unit (potentially an extra model). When you take 5 or 10 models in a unit, the prices are always going to be divisible by 5, right?

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That is NOT readable at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Billagio wrote:
Do we know how much Heavy Intercessors are yet?

I think it was listed at 28. No melee options for the Sergeant which is disappointing.

28 and +10 for any specials.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Wait...

'And they shall know no fear' changed. No more reroll.
Now they ignore combat attrition modifiers (like -1 for half strength, or presumably penalties imposed by enemy special rules).

Not sure how I feel about it, or if it really matters.

Definitely matters. Put Eradicators on LD6, kill two, 33% chance to off the last one and with some luck even more if they took a big squad.

Marines have to be really careful against morale mods now that they have all these beefy models that can run.

**Aaranis**

Yes Morale matters now. In a game against Death Guard, there was a big blob of 20 Plague Marines, over the course of the game I made at least 6 run because of the new rules. I think it's great as it's not overly punishing due to attrition tests (you won't lose 10 cultists because you lost a dozen to shooting) but it makes it matter against every target save those who are effectively Fearless.

**tneva82**

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Cronch wrote:
seeing all those 19's, 28's and other weird point numbers, I am now 100% convinced the devs assign those at random. They go "this unit is roughly worth 20pts per model" and then fiddle it so it looks like Rigorous Playtesting made them realize it is in fact exactly ONE point less capable than 20pts.

They are not 'weird'.

When 9th dropped, all of a sudden everything was a multiple of 5. Which was stupid.

Now there's been a couple months for Devs to see how that shakes out, they can make small adjustments based on performance. A point either side on a model is a lot when you take 20 in a list.

Uuh no games since 9e was launched, internally or externally, was used for figuring points　in codex.

**Wha-Mu-077**

Insularum wrote:
Coolyo294 wrote:
So for the relic terminators, did tartaros and cataphractii armor get flattened into one generic terminator profile or did they retain their unique characteristics?

They are one generic unit now, with standard terminator profile, tartaros is not fast, cataphractii is not slow or more durable. They can be equiped with any combo of stuff from the plastic GW kits, no FW 30k options and still no tele homer though. I think cataphractii captain is gone too although not 100% on that.

Looks like reaper cannon is now ap2 and claws are +1 attack each, not just for a pair. Looks like the only really advantage these have other generic terminators is mixing claws and guns, or putting a x2 str weapon on the sarge.

Wow that's gakky thanks GW

**Lord Damocles**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Insularum wrote:
Coolyo294 wrote:
So for the relic terminators, did tartaros and cataphractii armor get flattened into one generic terminator profile or did they retain their unique characteristics?

They are one generic unit now, with standard terminator profile, tartaros is not fast, cataphractii is not slow or more durable. They can be equiped with any combo of stuff from the plastic GW kits, no FW 30k options and still no tele homer though. I think cataphractii captain is gone too although not 100% on that.

Looks like reaper cannon is now ap2 and claws are +1 attack each, not just for a pair. Looks like the only really advantage these have other generic terminators is mixing claws and guns, or putting a x2 str weapon on the sarge.

Wow that's gakky thanks GW

What? It's the worst of both worlds - a separate entry feeding the bloat, but without any real semi-meaningful differences. Of course that's what GW went with!

**Red Corsair**

Virules wrote:
No, it is just that he counts as top bracket for wounds until your next command phase.

Silent king is titanic so the auto explode is 3CP and top profile cost 2, neither are 1cp for him.

**Kharne the Befriender**

Was the Necron vs Salamanders game recorded anywhere? I'd love to watch it

**Voss**

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Cronch wrote:
seeing all those 19's, 28's and other weird point numbers, I am now 100% convinced the devs assign those at random. They go "this unit is roughly worth 20pts per model" and then fiddle it so it looks like Rigorous Playtesting made them realize it is in fact exactly ONE point less capable than 20pts.

They are not 'weird'.

When 9th dropped, all of a sudden everything was a multiple of 5. Which was stupid.

Now there's been a couple months for Devs to see how that shakes out, they can make small adjustments based on performance. A point either side on a model is a lot when you take 20 in a list.

Well, you're partially right. They aren't weird.

But these numbers would have been finalized by the time the CA2020 book came out. Between printing and distribution there hasn't been time for the devs to see how the 2020 numbers 'shook out.' These would have been based on 2019 and probably internal testing.
Most of the indomitus models and the EtB kits have the exact same numbers they did in CA2020