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 DivineVisitor wrote:

I've been collecting Space Wolves for about 20 years but feel free to enlighten me as im obviously missing something.

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

Ragnar has always been the most important Character the Space Wolves have. He is their Dante/Calgar/Azrael, perhaps not in terms of rank but he is in terms of importance to the lore. He has also been a focal point of more recent background material and another novel that was released in December 2016.

Gaunt is a poor comparison, where are his models and rules? Ragnar is more akin to Dante/Calgar/Azrael and likely has more written about him than those 3 combined.

Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".

Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The point. You've missed it.

No I got it, you problem is that there is no new Raven Guard Supplement and you are pissed that the new Space Wolves Supplement get those toys which should be coming first in a Raven Guard Supplement and that SW get unique stuff but don't deserve it because those are RG exclusives

So I just tell you, wait for your new Supplement or a new Space Marines Codex, whatever comes first
don't see a big problem here, just accept that your Chapter has to wait, while all others get the stuff that you want

you can always play a different faction if GW does not make the one you play the way you like it (or play a different game instead)

Since yes, you did miss the point:

I'm pissed that GW didn't do the correct thing and spend some time on those supplements that are now outshone by sheer afterthoughts thanks to the setup for the new stuff. Deathwatch get new Kill Teams, Wolves get a new unit. DA and BA will probably get new units too.

The First Founding Chapters got...well, a new character? Unless you're Ultras, in which case you got three(Guilliman, Tigurius, and Calgar Primicus with Bodyguard) since the runup to 8th launched.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada.

So why did you bring Gaunt up as analogous to Ragnar in terms of importance, when Ragnar has had rules and a model in every incarnation of the game since the second edition? This doesn't prove your point in the slightest. You're flailing badly here.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'm pissed that GW didn't do the correct thing and spend some time on those supplements that are now outshone by sheer afterthoughts thanks to the setup for the new stuff. Deathwatch get new Kill Teams, Wolves get a new unit. DA and BA will probably get new units too.

The First Founding Chapters got...well, a new character? Unless you're Ultras, in which case you got three(Guilliman, Tigurius, and Calgar Primicus with Bodyguard) since the runup to 8th launched.

and this is different from anything that GW has done since end of 4th?
I don't get it, GW has done what they always do and at no point there was any hint that it will be different this time

if you are now pissed how GW writes Marines, it must be you first Marine Codex update

It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.

SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.

Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.

You are missing part of the point. Ragnar has always had rules and a model as well. He is far closer to the former and not the latter in your statement.

As for that SW Combat Patrol. Why are they trying to foist Reivers off on us again? What garbage. Hard pass in my opinion. Intercessors are good troops. But Assault Intercessors would have been more in line with SW. The Warsuit is a pass for me, but I can see where some people might like it. Seems like a garbage, hey what do we need to get rid of because no one buys it anymore, box set.

Tonight on Dakka, guy is angry that Space Wolves have better upkeep than Raven Guard. Next week on Dakka he's gonna find out that Blood Angels will definitely absolutely certainly be getting more screen time than Salamanders, be sure not to miss the fireworks

 bullyboy wrote:
It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.

GW said they wouldn't get Vanguard. They changed their minds.
Beyond that? I said I didn't want Deathwatch to get Phobos Kill Teams.
Bad enough that Deathwatch gets to be a 'Chapter' itself now.

SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.

Codex Supplement: Space Wolves includes the rules for a brand-new unit, the Hounds of Morkai, who are also getting a multipart plastic kit. This is a dedicated psyker-hunting pack equipped with runic totems to protect them from evil magicks before they close in and slay the witch.

Sorry, what was it you were saying?

Did the kit exist before? No? Did the unit exist before? No?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

From a gameplay perspective perhaps, from a background perspective it's the fact that Chapter Scouts are recruits whereas Wolf Scouts are vets. If they were to be represented in a Primaris style unit i would expect them to be in Phobos armour; hence why i can see this as some form of replacement to them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".

Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.

You think Ragnar is more akin to Ventris? Remind me, when was the last time Ventris had rules?

Like it or not Ragnar is the 'main character' of the Space Wolves and always has been. He has featured in every Codex release since 2nd edition as well as having numerous novels and short stories about him. He was the one who had model representation at the same time as Dante, Calgar and Azrael when Grimnar was no more than a sketch next to a paragraph of text. The only character that would dislodge Ragnar from that position would be Leman Russ who i hope we don't see returning because i think it would diminish the other Space Wolves place in the lore, just like Gulliman has done with Calgar.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.

GW said they wouldn't get Vanguard. They changed their minds.
Beyond that? I said I didn't want Deathwatch to get Phobos Kill Teams.

Doesn't say anywhere on the linked page that DW won't get Vanguard.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

From a gameplay perspective perhaps, from a background perspective it's the fact that Chapter Scouts are recruits whereas Wolf Scouts are vets. If they were to be represented in a Primaris style unit i would expect them to be in Phobos armour; hence why i can see this as some form of replacement to them.

Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Raven Guard Successors all featured 'veteran scouts' as well--they just didn't have rules because reasons.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".

Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.

You think Ragnar is more akin to Ventris? Remind me, when was the last time Ventris had rules? Like it or not Ragnar is the 'main character' of the Space Wolves and always has been. He has featured in every Codex release since 2nd edition as well as having numerous novels and short stories about him. He was the one who had model representation at the same time as Dante, Calgar and Azrael when Grimnar was no more than a sketch next to a paragraph of text. The only character that would dislodge Ragnar from that position would be Leman Russ who i hope we don't see returning because i think it would diminish the other Space Wolves place in the lore.

Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.

Ragnar has always been the most important Character the Space Wolves have. He is their Dante/Calgar/Azrael, perhaps not in terms of rank but he is in terms of importance to the lore. He has also been a focal point of more recent background material and another novel that was released in December 2016.

That is literally why I responded the way that I did. YOU brought up his importance to the lore. That is why I chose MY response to be couched the way I did, explicitly using a character(Ibram Gaunt) that is touted as 'important to the lore' by people yet has no model or rules and has not for years.

Importance to the lore does not mean diddly equating to the actual game.

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

And multiple power weapons per squad sir. And Outflank sir. SW Scouts used to be badass.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Only by virtue of having outdated fiction still lingering around. This is like saying that Gaunt is 'the main character' of the Imperial Guard.

Says someone pushing also-ran, has been faction getting so much love that chapter master got offed off screen in dumbest trap possible (then Shrike got the title just because he had model, in lazy retcon peeing all over the SM fluff stating such low ranking captain would never get the nod over 1st or 2nd company captains, dwarfing him in prestige and experience) as important. Claiming RG are anywhere near in importance to Gaunt and should get their own super special units is like saying these third grade Cadians deserve no mention in Codex IG and the lead faction should be SUPER IMPORTANT Kanak Skull Takers regiment with array of unique super heavy tanks...

Justyn wrote:

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

And multiple power weapons per squad sir. And Outflank sir. SW Scouts used to be badass.

Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.

Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.

He said that Ragnar is very important in the lore. You said that was like saying Gaunt is quintessential Guard. Then he said Gaunt doesn't even have rules, and you replied that this is very important, crucial in fact, and proves your non-point (even though it actually does the opposite).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.

GW said they wouldn't get Vanguard. They changed their minds.
Beyond that? I said I didn't want Deathwatch to get Phobos Kill Teams.
Bad enough that Deathwatch gets to be a 'Chapter' itself now.

SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.

Codex Supplement: Space Wolves includes the rules for a brand-new unit, the Hounds of Morkai, who are also getting a multipart plastic kit. This is a dedicated psyker-hunting pack equipped with runic totems to protect them from evil magicks before they close in and slay the witch.

Sorry, what was it you were saying?

Did the kit exist before? No? Did the unit exist before? No?

hate to burst your fragile bubble, but that boxset is just reivers and an upgrade sprue...not a new kit, these models already exist. If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.

Cool, so what unit was the Ultramarines Honor Guard based off of for Primaris?

Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.

But the Shrike pattern Sniper Rifle was named after Tech-Magus Erzimiah Shrike. Who in the 38th Millennium invented it and gifted it to the Raven Guard. (No I don't know the fluff of the Shrike Rifle, I'm just making fun of GW's naming convention for many items. Arkham Land designed the Land Raider and Land Speeder, etc).

Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.

The scouts were not emblematic of SW. All of the SW units were, before the 5th edition Flanderization.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Importance to the lore does not mean diddly equating to the actual game.

This thing is 80% models and 20% fluff. The remainder is rules. That's approximately how much the rules are worth. I know you agree, since you're squealing all up and down this thread about Fluff travesties connected to your chosen faction. Something about a Chapter Master dying? And a rifle named after some guy? A bunch of other stuff. They seem to be fluff concerns. Your cognitive dissonance is reaching critical levels.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cool, so what unit was the Ultramarines Honor Guard based off of for Primaris?

Really? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ultramarines-Honour-Guard-2018

JWBS wrote:
The DW Aggressors look like they're probably ETB.

Sculpted DW shoulder pads means its the non ETB kit, just built with the flamer fists.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Raven Guard Successors all featured 'veteran scouts' as well--they just didn't have rules because reasons.

Raven Guard to my knowledge has had practically no special units in the past. What made you think this would change now? Dark Angels on the other hand already have a plethora of specialist units so im not surprised to see them not get any special Scouts. Whereas Wolf Scouts have been a thing since 3rd edition (20 years ago). If anybody was going to get a Phobos specialist unit the Space Wolves were a strong contender and in fact potentially the only contender given Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and White Scars have generally never received any special treatment like the big 4 Chapters have.

Raven Guard are simply one of the 'other' Chapters and if you are honestly expecting them to receive unique units like the 4 main Chapters then i think you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.

The players do. Cain isn't the most prominent Commisar from when we think about 40k, Yarrick is. Not everyone reads the Ventris novels and most Ultramarines even among those that do (pre Gulliman) would still name Calgar as their more prominent character, likewise Blood Angels would name Dante and Dark Angels would name Azrael (or Cypher). Space Wolves would not name Grimnar. They would name Ragnar as the most prominent character.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cool, so what unit was the Ultramarines Honor Guard based off of for Primaris?"

Sorry, i must confess i have not purchased the new Space Marine Codex. Do Ultramarines have another unique Honour Guard Unit? If so that's not unexpected, they've had them in the past afterall:

Though i'm guessing these guys were what partly inspired the creation of the Bladeguard Vets.

Yeah, it’s just the terminator/gravis shoulder pad from the conversion kit. It most likely comes with 1-2 desthwatch sprues

 Kanluwen wrote:

Justyn wrote:

Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.

And multiple power weapons per squad sir. And Outflank sir. SW Scouts used to be badass.

Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.

Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.

Kan, please calm down and stop wailing. Come back when chaos have drop pods, ynnari actually have a range for their 3 model army and heretics & renegades are un-squatted.

Marines have more than enough toys, raven guard don't need special treatment beyond what they have and whilst wolves don't either, they're sure as hell back of the bus for needing new crap.

Take these: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Raven-Guard-Dark-Fury-Assault-Squad run as vanguard vets, be happy.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Though i'm guessing these guys were what partly inspired the creation of the Bladeguard Vets.

I think they just wanted to balance the Sternguard and Vanguard with some Middleguard, but Middleguard wasn't a cool name.

Watching Kan lose his mind because a Chapter he doesn't play got something is amusing. As is his insistence that Ragnar ain't no thang.

Ragnar's one of the oldest characters in the game. Of course he's important.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Theory: GW is moving from Start Collecting boxes to Combat Patrols because Start Collecting boxes have actually really nice discounts sometimes and Combat Patrols will be barely discounted.

Sounds about right to me.

 Ghaz wrote:
Other posters on Dakka have received the recut kit without the green rods, and that is the kit used for Lokhust Destroyers and is even pictured with the datasheet in the new codex (there is no 'Necron Destroyer' or 'Destroyer' datasheets in the new codex).

EDIT: Picture of the recut sprue can be found here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2100/788624.page#10935648

Well that's a tremendous disappointment...

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Cool, so what unit was the Ultramarines Honor Guard based off of for Primaris?

Really? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ultramarines-Honour-Guard-2018

Try reading. The comment I replied to said that there's no Phobos jump unit for them to have been based off of.

DivineVisitor wrote:The players do. Cain isn't the most prominent Commisar from when we think about 40k, Yarrick is.

Go on social media and ask that question. Can basically guarantee that Cain and Gaunt will be just as heavily mentioned as Yarrick.

Not everyone reads the Ventris novels and most Ultramarines even among those that do (pre Gulliman) would still name Calgar as their more prominent character

Yeah, more likely it would have been Sicarius.

likewise Blood Angels would name Dante

Or Mephiston. Or Lemartes.

and Dark Angels would name Azrael (or Cypher).

Ezekiel or Asmodai are just as likely to crop up. Or Belial. Or Sammael.

Space Wolves would not name Grimnar. They would name Ragnar as the most prominent character.

Or Bjorn. Or Lukas the Trickster.

Sorry, i must confess i have not purchased the new Space Marine Codex. Do Ultramarines have another unique Honour Guard Unit? If so that's not unexpected, they've had them in the past afterall:

Everyone had them in the past at one point. The unit did not start out as Ultramarines only, but rather only Ultramarines had models for them.

Once again though, try reading. Bullyboy's comment:

If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.

Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.

Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?

Ventris was a bit of a unique situation, being he was Graham McNeil's pet character and when he wrote the 4th Ed. Marines Codex, he basically turned it into the Ventris / Ultramarine-Codex with all unit depictions bearing Ultramarine symbols, basically all little quotes and anecdotes in the boxes being Ventris, etc.., etc..

Not sure it ever was an "organically" super-popular character, more a BL-author-turned-codex-author going a bit overboard with the Ultramarine hype and self-promotion.

Contrary to popular perception, the 5th Ed. Marines Codex actually turned down the Ultramarine focus quite a bit and added a lot more meat to things like Salamanders, Raven Guard, etc..,


I guess it might be the same if, say, Abnett wrote a Guard Codex (and had the impulse to shamelessly plug his Gaunt novels on every page to boost sales of his previous work). You'd get a similar product.

McNeil was indeed a mistake.

Questionable list there. Lukas the Trickster is prominent, but Ragnar is bordering on obscure. Sure.

JWBS wrote:
McNeil was indeed a mistake.

Questionable list there. Lukas the Trickster is prominent, but Ragnar is bordering on obscure. Sure.

It's like you're just spoiling for a fight.

Nowhere have I said Ragnar is "obscure". People have different characters that stick out to them. If you asked me about Ultramarines, Telion would be the foremost character to me--while Sergeant Naaman would be the standout Dark Angel.

It's funny though that apparently it's super, super demandy to have wanted something special for Raven Guard yet Wolf players are complaining that they didn't get a "new kit" while they did get a new unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Go on social media and ask that question. Can basically guarantee that Cain and Gaunt will be just as heavily mentioned as Yarrick.

Doubtful. It would be relying on those who have read their books, ask 100 40k players to name a Commissar off the cuff and Yarrick is going to be the number one pick. I know players who don't even know who Gaunt or Cain are but they all know who Yarrick is.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, more likely it would have been Sicarius.

Over Calgar? Doubtful.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or Mephiston. Or Lemartes.

Over Dante? Doubtful.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ezekiel or Asmodai are just as likely to crop up. Or Belial. Or Sammael.

Over Azrael? Doubtful.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or Bjorn. Or Lukas the Trickster.

Bjorn you could almost make an argument for but he is still not as storied or as represented as much as Ragnar has been. But Lukas... Lukas? Get off the Koolaid.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.

Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?

Yes, because quite frankly; the Raven Guard are a footnote. They are not one of the main Chapters that get blessed with unique unit releases, the best they can expect is a character thrown their way every now and then like some sort of consolation prize. That is their lot in life and always has been. Will it change in the future? Possibly, but they will never receive the kind of attention that is lavished on the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. It is simply never going to happen.

P.s. Don't feel bad, despite being some "fricking Captain"; Ragnar is more prominent than most Chapter Masters, Shrike included. He is also the defacto Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. The Thor to Logan's Odin.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Once again though, try reading. Bullyboy's comment:

If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.

Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.

Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?

No, you were pissed that SW got a new "unit" even though Raven Guard didn't get one. The counterpoint being presented is that the unit maybe new, but it's not a new kit produced for the SW...it already exists and is just getting a new package. It has been shown why Wolves instead of Guard got this new unit, but you are still pissed. Phobos JP troops would have to be an entirely new kit, one does not currently exist. You can use vanvets to make a bodyguard now if you want, but don't get upset about Wolves getting a new unit when it's really just a Primaris replacement for their old unique scout unit (which is pretty much the same as every codex one now).

By all means get pissed about a unique Ultra bodyguard unit, but this SW hill you chose to die on seems odd indeed.