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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now how many of those awesome devices have rules?

How many have models?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
How many have models?

Just as I thought...

Would special issue ammo being reduced in both effect and not applied universally to (non heavy) bolt weapons be another example of GW overbalancing?

The existence of a 2 wound ammo is a buff amongst the other reductions mind you.

changemod wrote:
Would special issue ammo being reduced in both effect and not applied universally to (non heavy) bolt weapons be another example of GW overbalancing?

The existence of a 2 wound ammo is a buff amongst the other reductions mind you.

There's a few things to note here that I'd say makes the SIA better overall:
You no longer have to choose between Bolter Discipline and SIA
Dragon Fire bolts ignore ALL cover, rather than just a +1 to hit to enemies in cover. That's much better, especially against anything with camo cloaks
The range increase for kraken rounds is no longer shorter for pistols, so if you want to cap a guardsman with a bolt pistol outside of their double tap range you can
There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine

The only nerf is the hellfire round

Yeah overall SIA seems better for those that can use it.

And now I finally know how to paint my indomitus stuff! Seems like most (all except except lieutenant?) is going to be DW instead of IH.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine

This in particular, combined with the doctrine-choosing shenanigans, I feel is going to be huge in what is still currently very much a Marine meta.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine

Which would be nice if Bolt Rifles could actually use SIA. They sacrifice their rate of fire to get to that AP level because the new strat makes the weapon Heavy 1.

Quasistellar wrote:
Yeah overall SIA seems better for those that can use it.

Which is the fundamental problem. Only one datasheet in the entire army can make use of SIA in any meaningful capacity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:

This in particular, combined with the doctrine-choosing shenanigans, I feel is going to be huge in what is still currently very much a Marine meta.

It really wont be. The Veteran Stalker Boltgun does the anti-marine job far better, and doesnt consume gobs of CP to operate. Outside of niche Heavy Intercessor or Phobos Captain shenanigans, you're not going to see primaris SIA.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

changemod wrote:
Would special issue ammo being reduced in both effect and not applied universally to (non heavy) bolt weapons be another example of GW overbalancing?

The existence of a 2 wound ammo is a buff amongst the other reductions mind you.

There's a few things to note here that I'd say makes the SIA better overall:
You no longer have to choose between Bolter Discipline and SIA
Dragon Fire bolts ignore ALL cover, rather than just a +1 to hit to enemies in cover. That's much better, especially against anything with camo cloaks
The range increase for kraken rounds is no longer shorter for pistols, so if you want to cap a guardsman with a bolt pistol outside of their double tap range you can
There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine

The only nerf is the hellfire round

Unless there are units that actually have the rule, the really big nerf is its two CP each time you want to use it, and makes the guns heavy 1.

On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?

Voss wrote:

On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?

So far as we know, basic boltguns, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun (not the Stalker Bolt Rifle) and the boltgun profile of combi-weapons taken by Veterans or Proteus Kill Teams.

Sterling191 wrote:

Voss wrote:

On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?

So far as we know, basic boltguns, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun (not the Stalker Bolt Rifle) and the boltgun profile of combi-weapons taken by Veterans or Proteus Kill Teams.

I take it veterans can’t take the simpler special issue gun sternguard get?

I’m glad that they’ve at least kept the “Deathwatch veterans (the unit) can be made from any combination of deathwatch veterans (the kit) and sternguard veteran wargear” so that everyone’s storm bolter conversions haven’t been erased from existence.

Even if they don’t like that lots of people were taking those storm bolters on relatively cheap and efficient veterans for spec ammo purposes though, that still leaves more uppriced terminators kinda in the lurch without it.

changemod wrote:

I take it veterans can’t take the simpler special issue gun sternguard get?

Nope. Sternguard actually have better Kraken bullets then Deathwatch do. Go figure.

So they screwed up Special Ammo again. Nice to know Intercessors were just TOO broken with it. I bet Storm Bolters won't get it now either because of complainers mad that Deathwatch actually did something.

Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.

It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.

Any sense for what's going on?

 flaherty wrote:
Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.

It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.

Any sense for what's going on?

A global pandemic

GW's factory and packing had several months shutdown earlier in the year and a huge stock dry-up during that same time. So they had a huge hump just to get what was out back on the shelf. Additionally with the covid work restrictions they can't produce at full capacity (a capacity that as having issues before lockdown). They also committed to a second print of Indomitus and they might well have Christmas bundle boxes in production as well. Both eating up big production slots. Coupled to that its clear that there's some international issues with shipping product out. So even if they can produce more stock it appears to be taking longer to ship world wide. This might well mean they've had to push things like Christmas bundles earlier for overseas regions to get the stock there in time for that winter sales period.

So stock is being limited. The system just can't cope with the high demand and lower packing/shipping/production aspects. So yep limits are bound to happen as is stuff running out of stock more quickly than normal. It's likely a situation we will remain in until such time as Corona work restrictions are lifted. So likely for the rest of 2020 and a good portion of 2021 (I'm aware that several major UK events have already cancelled 2021 mid-year events).

Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.

 flaherty wrote:
Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.

It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.

Any sense for what's going on?

It certainly seems that way.

I contacted customer services this afternoon to see if Blackstone Fortress had been discontinued, and they said that they are making more copies and hopefully ready before Christmas. Making an educated guess, I would say that meeting demand for back orders of Indomitus is taking its toll. For example, Adeptus Titanicus' newest expansion book has had no plastic kit release to accompany it, so sacrifices are being made.

That's not what happened, and it has nothing to do with the recent lockdown changes. They didn't announce till the last minute that they weren't giving stores as many copies as they asked for, and provided no explanation in the email announcing that they weren't going to be delivering a lot of what stores had requested.

The amount of product in the GW warehouse didn't change between opening the stuff up for stores to order and then saying they weren't going to actually let stores have as much as they wanted, that was just GW deciding to keep more of it for itself to push people to use its web store.

It's basically the same thing as happened for Indomitus, GW used the store orders to gauge interest then decided to keep stuff back for itself because it'd rather get the higher profit margin from selling from its own web store.

GW is definitely having trouble keeping stuff in stock, and that is indirectly related to why they decided to limit orders. But it's not as innocent as "we just couldn't make enough," if it was they would have known that ahead of time and limited store orders ahead of time, not at the last minute.

*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

SamusDrake wrote:
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.

Of course!

I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.

Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.

It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"

SamusDrake wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.

Of course!

I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!

No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.

Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.

It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"

UK is considering Tier 4 national which might well see a lot of additional restrictions. Though its more likely to focus on retail and the highstreet and social gathering events. So most likely we'll see all non-essential shops close like last time, but we might not see business close down. Which would make sense since it seems that we are getting more infection rising from people going out and doing social things rather than through work and where it is work related its often at factories where staff distance at work, but are then bussed home and live in very dense communities. At least most of the factory situations seem to have gone that way


So GW might or might not be ok, their stores will likely close; the factory side might keep going; but at the same time we might well see shipping and such heavily impacted once again like before.

Dudeface wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.

Of course!

I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!

No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Of course nobody is asking perfect. But even 20% to perfect is too much to ask from gw. But guess since perfect is impossible you are happy regardless of quality. Gw can but out totally unreadable book and you buy anyway.

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!

Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?

Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.

Of course!

I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!

No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Of course nobody is asking perfect. But even 20% to perfect is too much to ask from gw. But guess since perfect is impossible you are happy regardless of quality. Gw can but out totally unreadable book and you buy anyway.

Please quantify what 20% perfect is in this context. But if you struggle to read GW publications you may have visual impediments.

Instead I buy books that I use, enjoy and allow me to partake in a hobby that is dear to me. If I don't buy them I can't play with the latest rules and struggle to get games in.

That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.

So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.

So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.

All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.