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yukishiro1 wrote:


This is the second time. It must be interesting to live in a world where "twice in three months" is "never ever ever."

Oh wow, you claimed twice out of thousands (2/1000s) is a pattern. I didn't notice. I did not think you would do this, but you did.

BrianDavion wrote:

thats likely because those pre-orders all come in then someone goes through and says "hey bob, we won;t be able to fill these numbers." "ok, so to be fair lets give each store the same amount"

That's not how things work. Not even GW is incompetent enough not to know how many kits they have in their warehouse before taking orders. They don't just take 100k orders and then go look at how many they can ship and then cut everybody's allocation by half if they only have 50k. They know how many units they have in the warehouse and they know how many orders are coming in. If orders exceed stock, they stop taking orders. A normal business would have allocated a certain portion of their warehouse for independent sales, and stopped taking orders from independents if those orders were exceeded. If for some reason they radically misestimated demand, they would eat that cost themselves by opening a larger allocation for a second round of orders, with purchase limits. If they had concerns about demand to begin with because of a pandemic, they would have initially limited orders to X from each retailer, then opened up a further allocation if they had the amount. These are all basic principles of inventory management.

At the very least, if something truly weird happens and they are left in a situation where they can't deliver on the preorders they took, a company is going to provide a thorough explanation for why they're defaulting on those preorders. Not just send around an email literally a day or two before the product is supposed to arrive that "sorry, you're not getting what you ordered" with no explanation.

If there was a good explanation for why this happened for Indomitus, they would have given it. If there was a good explanation for why this happened again now, they would have given it. Instead, in both cases, they just slashed allocations to independents without explanation.

A businessman I see. I, too, as a fellow businessman, expect multi-nationals to thoroughly dissect their failures, in real time, in the public eye. That's just what we call good business.
Funniest thing about this is that it's two codices and a couple of Start Collecting releases. I can kinda see the appeal with the Indomitus debacle, that was an exciting time and and event well worth unpacking the tinfoil for. This though, is just sad (funny sad).

If you actually do business and when you screw up and can't deliver on the orders you took you just say "you're not getting what you ordered and LOL if you think we're going to give you an explanation because that would be admitting failure," you aren't going to be in business for very long.

Except if you're in the plastic crack business, apparently. Then people will come out of the woodwork to attack anybody suggesting it's really bad business to take preorders and then not deliver on them with no explanation.

It's literally mind-boggling that anyone would be trying to defend a company telling retailers that they weren't getting what they had pre-ordered, with no explanation whatsoever, while those products are still available for sale on the webstore. It would be one thing if there literally weren't enough copies in the warehouse and they weren't taking pre-orders on the webstore either. But that isn't the case. They cut the orders of independents while they are still have product available for sale through their webstore. That isn't a company that took too many orders and can't deliver on all of them, it's a company that decided to cut the allocation to independents after seeing the order numbers, so they can sell more of them themselves.

Can we get back on topic please.

Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?

I think there's actually potentially some good stuff in the deathwatch book, but it does feel very bland what they've done to it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff.

This is demonstrably false. Kill Team Specialisms and the ability to crib abilities from every other non-GK marine chapter alone make them hellaciously versatile, but when you layer on the new WLTs, Psyker discipline (you're easily going to see one, maybe two Librarians in a majority of DW lists I'd wager), relics and strats that are actually worth a damn they're orders of magnitude improved over their 8th edition standing.

SIA is an issue, and one I think GW vastly overreached on. Losing mixed squad abilities (to an extent) on Proteus and Fortis teams is also a change that I'm not happy with. But everything else in the supplement is gold.

Yeah I think where they end up is better than before, but also less distinctive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?

what? a barn door is quite big....how the heck are you missing it?

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...

Irrelevant, they haven't been reprinting the same book for 25 years to Iron out every little thing.

than maybe they should change the advertising and make clear that those are not different Editions of the same Game, but each time a new stand alone game, so that people don't expect that GW has 25 years to iron out everything but write the rules each time from scratch and therefore get each time different errors

as long as GW advertise this as one game that was developed over 25 years people are legit to complain that they did not manage to erase all mistakes over those 25 years

its is their fault for the wrong advertising it, so no excuse here that it is not the same book reprinted

You've lost it guardsperson, report to the nearest commissar for... cleansing.

Pretty sure that if you change the contents one way or another you're increasing risk of errors, doesn't matter how or where. Nobody anywhere has ever suggested they expect 9th edition of 40k to be a reprint of rogue trader. It even has a different name.

Likewise GW have never suggested they've amended rogue trader 8 times.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff.

This is demonstrably false. Kill Team Specialisms and the ability to crib abilities from every other non-GK marine chapter alone make them hellaciously versatile, but when you layer on the new WLTs, Psyker discipline (you're easily going to see one, maybe two Librarians in a majority of DW lists I'd wager), relics and strats that are actually worth a damn they're orders of magnitude improved over their 8th edition standing.

SIA is an issue, and one I think GW vastly overreached on. Losing mixed squad abilities (to an extent) on Proteus and Fortis teams is also a change that I'm not happy with. But everything else in the supplement is gold.

Those specialisms only work well when you're tailoring, so quite frankly they might as well not exist, and the Warlord Traits are overall not changed. How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.

The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note.

The gimmick got toned down for the new supplement, but there are also other things going on now. Killing power may have dropped, but flexibility increased substantially.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those specialisms only work well when you're tailoring, so quite frankly they might as well not exist

Why yes, why would anyone go so niche as to bring Troops or HQs to a game of 40k. That'll never happen.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

and the Warlord Traits are overall not changed

This is again demonstrably false, and pretty clear evidence you've read none of the new book.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.

Again, false. They lost widespread access to SIA. The army's lethality is significantly improved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note

This is incorrect as well. Mixed squads in 8th granted seriously powerful abilities. The primary issue was that they were relatively overcosted for what they could do, and markedly fragile. They were also seriously handicapped by a lack of rules updates through the entirety of the edition.

We were talking about killing power; obviously mixed squads are a big thing for DW generally. SIA used to be the big gimmick DW got its killing power from.

That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.

yukishiro1 wrote:
We were talking about killing power; obviously mixed squads are a big thing for DW generally. SIA used to be the big gimmick DW got its killing power from.

Again, incorrect. Mixed squad rules were exceptionally powerful for allowing the army to deal consistent damage.

yukishiro1 wrote:

That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.

This is also inaccurate. With the capacity to choose their prey, and multiple options for powering up to selectively combat said prey, mixed Kill Teams still have a prominent role to play for the faction.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those specialisms only work well when you're tailoring, so quite frankly they might as well not exist

Why yes, why would anyone go so niche as to bring Troops or HQs to a game of 40k. That'll never happen.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

and the Warlord Traits are overall not changed

This is again demonstrably false, and pretty clear evidence you've read none of the new book.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.

Again, false. They lost widespread access to SIA. The army's lethality is significantly improved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note

This is incorrect as well. Mixed squads in 8th granted seriously powerful abilities. The primary issue was that they were relatively overcosted for what they could do, and markedly fragile. They were also seriously handicapped by a lack of rules updates through the entirety of the edition.

1. When you're paying 35 points, or half a Leuitenant, that's REALLY steep for basically a Character giving the same aura. So yes, it would be strictly about tailoring whether you want to admit it or not.
2. Half the Warlord Traits are basically the same. I did read the new rules thanks.
3. SIA WAS their killing power. Tacking on points to attempt to list tailor is not going to increase your killing power when your dudes only have a couple shots to begin with. 2 Extra shots via a Storm Bolter with SIA is always going to win out, as will the Assault Bolt Rifle using SIA.

That was the core of the army, the SIA. Not only did a bunch of units and guns lose it, but then there was a half asked attempt at Specialisms you're somehow trying to defend. The Supplement is garbage. Just accept that.

Sterling191 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.

This is also inaccurate. With the capacity to choose their prey, and multiple options for powering up to selectively combat said prey, mixed Kill Teams still have a prominent role to play for the faction.

Er, that's what I just said. SIA itself got toned down, but in conjunction with other stuff that got buffed, it's still got a role for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. When you're paying 35 points, or half a Leuitenant, that's REALLY steep for basically a Character giving the same aura. So yes, it would be strictly about tailoring whether you want to admit it or not.

Incorrect. It's full wound rerolls when you play your cards correctly. And that's very, very easy to do. Also only two of the Specialisms cost 35 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Half the Warlord Traits are basically the same. I did read the new rules thanks.

Then you would know that only one of the six WLTs is the same, and four of the six didnt even exist for 8th. So thanks for proving that you're lying.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. SIA WAS their killing power. Tacking on points to attempt to list tailor is not going to increase your killing power when your dudes only have a couple shots to begin with. 2 Extra shots via a Storm Bolter with SIA is always going to win out, as will the Assault Bolt Rifle using SIA.

Wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not only did a bunch of units and guns lose it, but then there was a half asked attempt at Specialisms you're somehow trying to defend. The Supplement is garbage. Just accept that.

I'm not for a second defending SIA, so thanks for putting words in my mouth. I've explicitly called it out here, in the Deathwatch thread, and elsewhere as a stupidly restrictive change.That does not change the fact that the supplement is decidedly not garbage, but youre more than welcome to continue to not play, or understand, an army you clearly dont play or understand. You wont be missed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?

the only units with SIA are the ones in their own supplement, the ones shared with the core SM codex seem to have lost it. I mean.......... people predicted some chapters risked loosing special rules if they did this kind of consolidation.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?

the only units with SIA are the ones in their own supplement, the ones shared with the core SM codex seem to have lost it. I mean.......... people predicted some chapters risked loosing special rules if they did this kind of consolidation.

They're not a Chapter though. They're basically an Inquisition martial force. They and Grey Knights should've been rolled into an Inquisition codex and retained their damned Ammo.

SIA was a crutch, its now reigned in and I will glady take 2D ammo with combat doctrines and bolter discipline, plus the extra rules that have been thrown on top. With the codex wide open to DW, you can't have armywide SIA too, that would be garbage rules design.
This codex supplement is close to what most DW players dreamt about.....if you don't see that, then you don't know DW. The fortis team might have taken a hit, but I can see people taking 5 stalker intercessors with 5 Outriders. Other teams will work great combined.
I truly hope most people think its garbage... Keeps the bandwagoners away.

BA combat patrol contents


Pretty meh IMHO. I was hoping for assault intercessors.

Oh ww. It's like they really don't want to sell any. I was looking forward to this one too, as I'll actually have a use for the upgrade sprues for BA. Maybe I can convince myself to get one, but I can imagine I'll more likely be waiting to see what's in UM / DA / whatever else instead.

 bullyboy wrote:
SIA was a crutch, its now reigned in and I will glady take 2D ammo with combat doctrines and bolter discipline, plus the extra rules that have been thrown on top. With the codex wide open to DW, you can't have armywide SIA too, that would be garbage rules design.
This codex supplement is close to what most DW players dreamt about.....if you don't see that, then you don't know DW. The fortis team might have taken a hit, but I can see people taking 5 stalker intercessors with 5 Outriders. Other teams will work great combined.
I truly hope most people think its garbage... Keeps the bandwagoners away.

The most amusing thing about it, is that DW better fits my conception of how marines should work _anyway_. The kill teams are almost perfect. A variety of specialists geared up for the mission, all troops, and thumbing their noses at the bizarre kludge that the Force Org chart has become. Doctrines too are so much better, almost as if someone was in command and making tactical decisions.

Even Reivers sneak in with an actual purpose, and no one is lining up 10 33 point plasma models to die like idiots, and eradicators are basically the special weapon troops they should have been.
Only weirdness is the bikes and jump packs mixed in, but combat squads solve that.

There are probably a lot of exploits in there, but it makes for a much more interesting take on an SM army.
And loads better than SW supplement looks (character spam + wolf spam attached to an otherwise perfectly normal SM force)

Maybe I missed it. Has there beenany announcement about when the new cryptek models will be released?

No, they're really stringing them out for some reason.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, they're really stringing them out for some reason.

That is extremely annoying. I'm trying to buy all the models I want in one shot because I get a discount from my LGS. Need 2x canoptek Doomstalkers, 3x lokhust heavies, 1 psychomancer, 1 chronomancer, 1 monolith, 1 silent king, codex, data cards

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, they're really stringing them out for some reason.

Well the pandemic and all has hit GW's production system hard. Plus they are backed up with releases for other systems too. Heck I suspect we got what was originally going to be two separate waves of Necron releases in one go already. I suspect starter sets, codex, terrain and such would have originally landed closer to Indomitus; then around September we'd have had the second wave and then a third wave later; instead we got waves one and two in one go and now there's a gap for the last which is likely going to be into next year.

It might even be that Indomitus wave 2 has pushed the new models further along as well.


The good side of it is that we've got time to buy and build without getting too overwhelmed in one go.

Flayed Ones are still to come too.

It took them like 3-4 months to get all the SoB stuff out after the Codex so I guess it's not actually unprecedented.