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other companies have realised that it is easier and cheaper for them to have online rules and keep them up to date

for the main reason that GW is the only company that is able to sell those things were other companies already get bad press for giving them away for free

anyone else is bad because they needed to add a free update in the first place to fix issues that were impossible to track in the beginning

with GW, people are happy to pay to get mistakes corrected that were obvious from the start and praise them for selling the stuff

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.

Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.

It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"

It's still likely that GW has imposed limitations of their own on how their workers in production are working, like my company has. Not everyone is fine with having their entire production line infected with COVID-19, be it because of having a conscience or because of financial reasons.

i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".

GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.

That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.

Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...

For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.

While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.

So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.

All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.

i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".

GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.

That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.

Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...

Two of those "facts" are actually opinions, as they are completely subjective or based only upon limited information.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.

So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.

All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.

i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".

GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.

That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.

Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...

Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.

Both were somewhat obvious and if an honest attempt at playtesting would've happened we'd had a lot less of these things, just like we'd not have had index Brimstone malefic spam and working soup rules, without the need for the bb change later on....

Sure never would've been everything caught, but the Soup limitations and implementation initially in the index era would've been easily catachable


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.

That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.

I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.

It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.

The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.

So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.

All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.

i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".

GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.

That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.

Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...

Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.

I agree, i think his ire would be better focussed at GW

Dudeface wrote:

Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.

not the perfect book, but something worth the price that lasts longer than 6 months

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.

not the perfect book, but something worth the price that lasts longer than 6 months

Well that would be nice, but worth the price is entirely subjective.

"worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover

for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year

 kodos wrote:
"worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover

for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year

We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover

for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year

We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.

not to be mean, but at this stage such textbooks do have a similar lifespan.. or need i remind you of the last PA which was supposedly written with 9th in mind or the (in)famous traitor legend supplement at the end of 7th...

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover

for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year

We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.

funny thing, my books for chemical tables and calculations is 20 years old and some stuff we use in the company 60 year or older
because the important stuff did not change so it is not worth buying the new books for minor updates

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.

While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?

Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?
Also literally anyone here can predict that stuff. People were breaking each codex as we got leaks, and that's bare fething minimum info. It isn't difficult like you're making it, so stop using the "they can't catch everything" defense because if those obvious holes made it through you need to wonder what didn't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.

While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?

Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?.

No, they instead want to charge you for community made content instead. Without any curation or quality control filtering on what you pay for. Ergo a very loose/open ended paid mods system



Noting that I think paid mods is not a bad idea in concept, but having the main delivery system being paid for promoted and then having no curation/validation/quality control by the host company means that its ripe for abuse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.

While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?

Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?
Also literally anyone here can predict that stuff. People were breaking each codex as we got leaks, and that's bare fething minimum info. It isn't difficult like you're making it, so stop using the "they can't catch everything" defense because if those obvious holes made it through you need to wonder what didn't.

Also you can't (unless they allow it and you can actually do it to get what you want), modify games - you can adjust the rules and narrative of tabletop games to suit as long as you can persude your mates to play with you.

Dudeface wrote:
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...

Irrelevant, they haven't been reprinting the same book for 25 years to Iron out every little thing.

Please, create me a 200 page book with no errors and I'll eat my words.

So bringing this back on topic of discussing the new content

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-space-wolves-the-goonhammer-review/

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-deathwatch-the-goonhammer-review/

gotta say the space wolves sound like they're in a good position, I am somewhat sad to see that "WE EAT YOU FOR THE CPS!" strat gone, simply because uit was such a zany strat.

In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:

As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…

From GW's Halloween article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/31/the-spookiest-models-of-the-year/

 Geifer wrote:
In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:

As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…

From GW's Halloween article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/31/the-spookiest-models-of-the-year/

wasn't it also implied one of the SM units wouldn't come out until then? what one was it again?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:

As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…

From GW's Halloween article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/31/the-spookiest-models-of-the-year/

wasn't it also implied one of the SM units wouldn't come out until then? what one was it again?

I don't think so but there's a fair few to eek out yet.

Assault Intercessors? What with there being a dead Marine with a chainsword in the teaser.

Dudeface wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.

Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...

Irrelevant, they haven't been reprinting the same book for 25 years to Iron out every little thing.

than maybe they should change the advertising and make clear that those are not different Editions of the same Game, but each time a new stand alone game, so that people don't expect that GW has 25 years to iron out everything but write the rules each time from scratch and therefore get each time different errors

as long as GW advertise this as one game that was developed over 25 years people are legit to complain that they did not manage to erase all mistakes over those 25 years

its is their fault for the wrong advertising it, so no excuse here that it is not the same book reprinted

I suspected that Flayed Ones and Assault Intercessors will first show up in the new KT box, rather than a separate release.

I want to be wrong about that.

 Dysartes wrote:
*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.

Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.

Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?

the most likely answer is that GW's gotten more orders then expected and had to dial it back at the last minute.

and yes GW is proably taking steps to ensure they can meet sales needs at their local stores first, that's as much likely a branding thing as it is a money thing.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.

Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?

Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.

But that's the point. They knew how many kits they had in their warehouse. If they were committed to shipping X kits to independents ahead of time, they would have just used that as their base for orders, and stopped taking orders when they reached that number.

Instead, just like with Indomitus, they're letting independents submit pre-orders then, at the last minute, deciding whether to actually give them what they pre-ordered. Leaving independents with people who pre-ordered product through them that the independents can't actually deliver on because their allocations got cut at the last minute with no explanation. Meanwhile the web store is still there tempting people to just buy direct...selling products that were preordered by the independents, which GW simply decided not to give them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWBS wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.

Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?

Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.

They did it with Indomitus. This is the second time. It must be interesting to live in a world where "twice in three months" is "never ever ever."

What "very obvious and easily explained external pressures" made GW have a different amount of kits in their warehouse between when they opened pre-orders for independents and a week later when they decided, with zero explanation, to not deliver on those pre-orders? If there were "very obvious and easily explained external pressures," don't you think GW would have, well, explained them in their messages telling retailers they weren't getting what they had ordered?

They ran out of Indomitus double quick time on the official GW site. It's because they didn't have enough, because of, you know, the pandemic. If they wanted to sell millions of copies direct, copies that they hoarded and withheld, at the expense of their business partners, they failed miserably.

yukishiro1 wrote:
But that's the point. They knew how many kits they had in their warehouse. If they were committed to shipping X kits to independents ahead of time, they would have just used that as their base for orders, and stopped taking orders when they reached that number.

Instead, just like with Indomitus, they're letting independents submit pre-orders then, at the last minute, deciding whether to actually give them what they pre-ordered. Leaving independents with people who pre-ordered product through them that the independents can't actually deliver on because their allocations got cut at the last minute with no explanation. Meanwhile the web store is still there tempting people to just buy direct...selling products that were preordered by the independents, which GW simply decided not to give them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWBS wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*

Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.

Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?

Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.

They did it with Indomitus. This is the second time. It must be interesting to live in a world where "twice in three months" is "never ever ever."

What "very obvious and easily explained external pressures" made GW have a different amount of kits in their warehouse between when they opened pre-orders for independents and a week later when they decided, with zero explanation, to not deliver on those pre-orders? If there were "very obvious and easily explained external pressures," don't you think GW would have, well, explained them in their messages telling retailers they weren't getting what they had ordered?

thats likely because those pre-orders all come in then someone goes through and says "hey bob, we won;t be able to fill these numbers." "ok, so to be fair lets give each store the same amount"