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It's special rule rather than weapon profile.

Every single special rule is missing in these. It could be bumped for 2++ for all we know but it wouldn't be there.

If you try to play with these assembly guides stuff you are without:

bolter drill
the marine assault bonus
resurection protocol
all inv saves
-1 to hit for fists etc

etc etc etc.

Of course also no point costs etc. Literally only good for teasers for future releases or for bunch of players(likely kids) who just throw models they have around and play with simplified ruleset without codexes etc.

yup, I was thinking the same thing

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't have my SM codex right now, but do Aggressors currently have the same bit as Eradicators where they get double shots but have to target a specific unit?

Cause if they do not, I could see that happening.

They can shoot 2 different units. The catch is that they have to stand still. Personally I'd like to keep my aggressors how they are, they were the Allstars of my lists

My guess is that double tap will go away. OW with flamers with the double tap is just insane and should not be a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
And the biggest problem is just that certain ones of them are fundamentally ridiculous and never should have made it into the game. I have no idea how anybody who did the math on master artisans / expert crafters could have thought that was ok to give as a custom trait, much less one that can be comboed with something else too. The only thing I can think of is that nobody actually did the math. Which is itself telling.

Yeah, master artisans were sooo OP that when the first SM codex hit at the start of 8th, almost no one played Salamanders for three years.

Oh wait...

Uh lots of people were using master artisans as a custom trait ever since it became available. People didn't play salamanders because why would you when RG/IH/IF were so much stronger at the time and you could just play Master Artisans versions of those instead?

That's the whole point of the problem with MA as a custom trait. It is way too powerful a thing to just hand out to anybody who wants it with any space marine army.

But EC is a bigger problem than master artisans honestly, space marines have so many rerolls anyway and aren't really encouraged to take a bunch of single entity units. It's much worse for what it does to eldar.

Hello, Nick Nanavathi used MA/Stealthy IH for 3 mounts. MA was super popular, because SM were allowed to cheats to get the stratagems and relics.
EC is popular because aeldar dont have insane aura rerolls that allow small units to be effective. And the other reason is that the default traits are lackluster and you can life easily without the ONE(not 10 like SM) stratagem. Even LVO showed that EC was not really issue, the best performing aeldar armies were using melee units and less shooting.

 Irbis wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Took some digging, but managed to find the new Inceptor sheet. Its the lack of overcharged plasma on their simplified sheet, just like every other plasma unit. The real "nerf" was their assault bolters not getting D2, but frankly its not a nerf as if they had actually gotten their damage output doubled they would go to instant auto-take status at 40ppm.

How is it not a nerf when squatmarine/sister with HB can now output the same damage at twice the range for far less?

The HB change was stupid, they should raise all weapons using the same ammunition (Inceptor guns, heavy bolt pistols, etc) to D2 or go back to D1, doubling of firepower just created endless issues like devaluing whole swatches of guns at a stroke (the above, plus autocannons, gun that became largely pointless with HB change) and spat at game fluff verisimilitude at the same time...

Who said HBPs and HBs use the same ammo? They have lower strength than a HB so why do you draw the conclusion they use same ammo? Simply from the use of word ‘Heavy’?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Took some digging, but managed to find the new Inceptor sheet. Its the lack of overcharged plasma on their simplified sheet, just like every other plasma unit. The real "nerf" was their assault bolters not getting D2, but frankly its not a nerf as if they had actually gotten their damage output doubled they would go to instant auto-take status at 40ppm.

How is it not a nerf when squatmarine/sister with HB can now output the same damage at twice the range for far less?

The HB change was stupid, they should raise all weapons using the same ammunition (Inceptor guns, heavy bolt pistols, etc) to D2 or go back to D1, doubling of firepower just created endless issues like devaluing whole swatches of guns at a stroke (the above, plus autocannons, gun that became largely pointless with HB change) and spat at game fluff verisimilitude at the same time...

Who said HBPs and HBs use the same ammo? They have lower strength than a HB so why do you draw the conclusion they use same ammo? Simply from the use of word ‘Heavy’?

"essentially a hand-held pistol version of the conventional Heavy Bolter outfitted with a large box magazine and high-speed autoloader"

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Assault_Bolter

Plus they're the same strength and ap... and number of shots.

I would add that if they got the d2 bump then I'd expect a hefty price hike.

Dudeface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Took some digging, but managed to find the new Inceptor sheet. Its the lack of overcharged plasma on their simplified sheet, just like every other plasma unit. The real "nerf" was their assault bolters not getting D2, but frankly its not a nerf as if they had actually gotten their damage output doubled they would go to instant auto-take status at 40ppm.

How is it not a nerf when squatmarine/sister with HB can now output the same damage at twice the range for far less?

The HB change was stupid, they should raise all weapons using the same ammunition (Inceptor guns, heavy bolt pistols, etc) to D2 or go back to D1, doubling of firepower just created endless issues like devaluing whole swatches of guns at a stroke (the above, plus autocannons, gun that became largely pointless with HB change) and spat at game fluff verisimilitude at the same time...

Who said HBPs and HBs use the same ammo? They have lower strength than a HB so why do you draw the conclusion they use same ammo? Simply from the use of word ‘Heavy’?

"essentially a hand-held pistol version of the conventional Heavy Bolter outfitted with a large box magazine and high-speed autoloader"

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Assault_Bolter

Plus they're the same strength and ap... and number of shots.

I would add that if they got the d2 bump then I'd expect a hefty price hike.

AK47 and AK74 have similar characteristics, but use different ammo sizes.

Rifle ammo tends to be longer.
Quite well possible to be the same calibre, but the cartrige is fat for the hand held version like an RL handgun, compared to a HB which is probably alot closer to a Rifle / Machinegun.

It is funny to me that we are quibbling about the munition compatibility between two of the bajillion types of Space Marine bolt weapons, but armor facings are complicated and scary...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is funny to me that we are quibbling about the munition compatibility between two of the bajillion types of Space Marine bolt weapons, but armor facings are complicated and scary...

20, now, assuming that the 30" range boltgun veterans have gets a new name.

Just in case anyone was wondering.

I will be going to my local games workshop store to inquire as to whether I get a free ice cream cone as I have punched my ticket again.

the_scotsman wrote:
20, now, assuming that the 30" range boltgun veterans have gets a new name.

Sister of Battle: "Yes, we love the bolter, it's like our third favorite weapon type. We love it so much that we won't use anything else beside melta and flamers. We have all of the bolter weapons, the whole 4 different types: pistol, normal, storm and heavy"
Space marines: "Lol we use a gazillion other type of weapons but we also have access to 20 types of bolters get rekt"

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
20, now, assuming that the 30" range boltgun veterans have gets a new name.

Sister of Battle: "Yes, we love the bolter, it's like our third favorite weapon type. We love it so much that we won't use anything else beside melta and flamers. We have all of the bolter weapons, the whole 4 different types: pistol, normal, storm and heavy"
Space marines: "Lol we use a gazillion other type of weapons but we also have access to 20 types of bolters get rekt"

20 bolters ~10 plasmaguns ~8 missile launchers...no we don't have a problem with making weapons that are microscopic variations of one another instead of just putting the ability on the god damn datasheet of the unit why do you ask?

It's mostly something that came with primaris though, no?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
20, now, assuming that the 30" range boltgun veterans have gets a new name.

Sister of Battle: "Yes, we love the bolter, it's like our third favorite weapon type. We love it so much that we won't use anything else beside melta and flamers. We have all of the bolter weapons, the whole 4 different types: pistol, normal, storm and heavy"
Space marines: "Lol we use a gazillion other type of weapons but we also have access to 20 types of bolters get rekt"

20 bolters ~10 plasmaguns ~8 missile launchers...no we don't have a problem with making weapons that are microscopic variations of one another instead of just putting the ability on the god damn datasheet of the unit why do you ask?

Ah, but be fair. Other armies also get the same treatment. I mean, you just have to look at the dazzling variation in DE weapons:

Splinter Rifle: Rapid Fire 1 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Twin-Splinter Rifle: Rapid Fire 2 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Cannon: Rapid Fire 3 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Pistol: Pistol 1 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Pod: Assault 2 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Shardcarbine: Assault 3 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is funny to me that we are quibbling about the munition compatibility between two of the bajillion types of Space Marine bolt weapons, but armor facings are complicated and scary...

Its worth noting that 'munition compatibility' is a pure background thing that has zero effect on gameplay. Not sure how or why you're relating that to armor facings.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd think that but literally nobody is going to take the rerolling melee hits on Xenos armies as a Custom trait simply because they won't make up the majority of the armies you'll face.

I run my steel confessors with Stalward + Preferred enemy : Tyranids.

Fits their fluff pretty well.

You gotta realise that some people do not play with minmaxing in mind, probably the majority of players even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think I've ever met a single player who uses the non-overpowered custom traits for their army for fluff reasons, in my experience people who play for fluff would much rather use the established, more fluffy rules including the relics, strats and characters than give that up in return for some generic bad rules. But if those people do exist and really want their bad custom traits to stay...I have no problem with that, as long as the overpowered ones are removed.

As soon as Blood of the Phoenix came out, my wraith army started using wrath of the dead and hunters of ancient relics as it's traits. Granted, Hunters has actually become a very solid trait with 9th's focus on objectives.

Same, and its what made my wraiths playable in 8th.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It's mostly something that came with primaris though, no?

One could say that there has been an ironhail of new variations.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
20, now, assuming that the 30" range boltgun veterans have gets a new name.

Sister of Battle: "Yes, we love the bolter, it's like our third favorite weapon type. We love it so much that we won't use anything else beside melta and flamers. We have all of the bolter weapons, the whole 4 different types: pistol, normal, storm and heavy"
Space marines: "Lol we use a gazillion other type of weapons but we also have access to 20 types of bolters get rekt"

20 bolters ~10 plasmaguns ~8 missile launchers...no we don't have a problem with making weapons that are microscopic variations of one another instead of just putting the ability on the god damn datasheet of the unit why do you ask?

Ah, but be fair. Other armies also get the same treatment. I mean, you just have to look at the dazzling variation in DE weapons:

Splinter Rifle: Rapid Fire 1 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Twin-Splinter Rifle: Rapid Fire 2 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Cannon: Rapid Fire 3 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Pistol: Pistol 1 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Splinter Pod: Assault 2 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+
Shardcarbine: Assault 3 S* AP- D1 Poison 4+

I am in no way counting "twin" versions of bolt weapons as a unique weapon. Just bolt weapons that have unique names. And nah, I'm not really interested in being "fair" because the marine list friggin looks like this:

Bolt pistol
Boltgun
Special-issue boltgun
Veteran 30" Range Regular Boltgun?
Stalker Boltgun
Combi-Bolter
Storm Bolter
Angelus Boltgun
Combi-Flamer
Combi-Plasma
Combi-Melta
Heavy Bolter
Hurricane Bolter
Infernus Heavy Bolter
Sniper Boltgun (or whatever the name of the one scouts use)

-----------------------Primaris starts here, people wondering whether this is a primaris-only phenomenon

Heavy bolt pistol
Absolvor Bolt Pistol
Boltstorm Gauntlets
Bolt Rifle
Stalker Bolt Rifle
Assault Bolt Rifle
Bolt Carbine
Occulum Bolt Carbine
Incursor Bolt Carbine
Inceptor Light Heavy Bolters
Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifle
Single Shot Heavy Bolter Used By Invictus?

27, initially I wasn't counting the deathwatch+blood angels specific ones or the various combi weapons as unique bolt weapons.

Truly the Iphone 11 of Warhammer 40,000 armies.

the_scotsman wrote:
Inceptor Light Heavy Bolters

What??

Eh, you really should group the various combi-weapons together (isn't combi-grav a thing? Not sure if SW get a combi-frost or not), given the bolt side of them is identical, and the only difference is the other half of the gun.

As far as I'm aware the sniper rifle used by Scouts is a standard needle rifle, so not a Bolt weapon - though the lack of such weapon keyowrding does make it unclear.

I honestly thought we were up to more Primaris variants, but then I remembered the design studio's current hard-on for Stubber and Gatling weapons on Primaris vehicles instead of Bolt weapons...

Scotsman, Scout's Sniper Rifles are not bolt weapons.

But the point remains.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Scotsman, Scout's Sniper Rifles are not bolt weapons.

But the point remains.

Likewise to nitpick the infernus heavy bolter and angelus bolter aren't in the marine codex.

that's nice and all, but is there a point to this or is this just offtopic?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Scotsman, Scout's Sniper Rifles are not bolt weapons.

But the point remains.

Oh gak, you're right, they're lasguns! I stand corrected, I have never ever noticed that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Inceptor Light Heavy Bolters

What??

I've only got the 8.0 SM 'dex to hand, but they're listed as "Assault Bolters" there - not sure if there was a name change for 8.5.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Inceptor Light Heavy Bolters

What??

I've only got the 8.0 SM 'dex to hand, but they're listed as "Assault Bolters" there - not sure if there was a name change for 8.5.

I cant remember all the goddamn names for all these things off the top of my head, you can nearly make a dang pokemon game out of the space marine wargear list.

"Go! Oculum Light Heavy Assault Boltstorm Ironstorm Boltgunpistol!"

"Well, I know OLHABIB is both the Bolt Type and the Assault Type, so I should choose a Missile type Spacemon to have a super effective attack...GO, AUXILIARY FRAGSTORM TWIN-LINKED MISSILE GRENADE LAUNCHER!"

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Inceptor Light Heavy Bolters

What??

I've only got the 8.0 SM 'dex to hand, but they're listed as "Assault Bolters" there - not sure if there was a name change for 8.5.

I cant remember all the goddamn names for all these things off the top of my head, you can nearly make a dang pokemon game out of the space marine wargear list.

"Go! Oculum Light Heavy Assault Boltstorm Ironstorm Boltgunpistol!"

"Well, I know OLHABIB is both the Bolt Type and the Assault Type, so I should choose a Missile type Spacemon to have a super effective attack...GO, AUXILIARY FRAGSTORM TWIN-LINKED MISSILE GRENADE LAUNCHER!"

You were the one presenting the claim as if it were a definitive list - perhaps next time you should do the research before going off on one, or at least make it clear that you're working from memory rather than referencing the book...

Dudeface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Took some digging, but managed to find the new Inceptor sheet. Its the lack of overcharged plasma on their simplified sheet, just like every other plasma unit. The real "nerf" was their assault bolters not getting D2, but frankly its not a nerf as if they had actually gotten their damage output doubled they would go to instant auto-take status at 40ppm.

How is it not a nerf when squatmarine/sister with HB can now output the same damage at twice the range for far less?

The HB change was stupid, they should raise all weapons using the same ammunition (Inceptor guns, heavy bolt pistols, etc) to D2 or go back to D1, doubling of firepower just created endless issues like devaluing whole swatches of guns at a stroke (the above, plus autocannons, gun that became largely pointless with HB change) and spat at game fluff verisimilitude at the same time...

Who said HBPs and HBs use the same ammo? They have lower strength than a HB so why do you draw the conclusion they use same ammo? Simply from the use of word ‘Heavy’?

"essentially a hand-held pistol version of the conventional Heavy Bolter outfitted with a large box magazine and high-speed autoloader"

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Assault_Bolter

Plus they're the same strength and ap... and number of shots.

I would add that if they got the d2 bump then I'd expect a hefty price hike.

I said HBP, so Heavy Bolt Pistol...

Pretty sure Marines are getting a Heavy Bolt Rifle when the Heavy Intercessors arrive.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Pretty sure Marines are getting a Heavy Bolt Rifle when the Heavy Intercessors arrive.

i know you mean this in joke, but i wouldn't even be surprised...

Dudeface wrote:

I would add that if they got the d2 bump then I'd expect a hefty price hike.

We've already seen the 9th sheet for Inceptors. Assault bolters are still D1