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Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





I really think they just need to put all the "kill stuff" secondary objectives under a single category. No reason players should be able to take 3 different "just kill your opponent's army" as secondaries.
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 CommunistNapkin wrote:
I really think they just need to put all the "kill stuff" secondary objectives under a single category. No reason players should be able to take 3 different "just kill your opponent's army" as secondaries.


Yes, I would agree with this. Not exactly a balance if you can get so many points just because I play guard with psykers lol. I don't think I could field a list with <150 wounds that all count towards thin ranks. With almost all our vehicles (10-12 wounds) feeding both objectives. And heaven forbid I bring 3 psykers in that army.

An all-vehicle list seems like it might do okay. It will give up 15 points easily, but not sure they will be able to get thin ranks from a bunch of leman Russ/manticore. Of course, this comes with its own host of problems.

What if we did something like

Spearhead
Regimental Doctrines Gunnery Experts, Jury Rigged Repairs

2x tank commander demolishers w/ hk missiles

Master of Ordinance

3x Armored Sentinels, plasma cannons, HK missiles
3x Armored Sentinels, plasma cannons, HK missiles
3x Armored Sentinels, plasma cannons, HK missiles

manticore hk missile(full payload)
manticore hk missile(full payload)
2x basilisk unit w/ hk missile
leman russ battle tanks unit
3x punishers w/ hk missiles

This way can only get like 10? from thin ranks. Granted no troops, but the idea is that the alpha strike is so big that we can let our punishers tank the middle. Just a veeeery rough idea and haven't trialed it haha.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





How about this one to reduce thin the ranks? It may only have 3 vehicles, but they are pretty good ones.
Doomhammer.
Doomhammer.
DoomFreakishlyAnotherHammer 1260 points.
Then.
company commander
lord commisar yarrik (he gives doomhammers reroll 1's)
30 regular gaurd infantry with 3 melta and 3 heavy bolter
1 ministerium priests, 1 engenseers, 1 astropath
3 veteran squads with 9 plasma and 3 heavy bolter

So sure, you only have .. uh .. 98 thin the ranks, and 9 vehicle, and 5 psyker. So the enemy is left trying to kill all your officers for his best secondary.

But I bet its a fun as hell list to play (unless the terrain is depressingly like my last GT, and you can't go to the other sid eof the board at all.) DOOMHAMMMERS ... CHARRRRRRGE! *people often forget the doomhammer IS a melee unit. A 26 wound, 9 attack melee unit with a hell of a precharge softening up cannon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/04 03:30:58


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






These tempt me lol
The issue I run into is without a good number of bodies I'm finding it hard to dominate primaries. I suppose I should be happy for the conundrum to figure out.

Has anyone had any success with mech infantry? I was finding chimeras going down rather fast. Also the points change from 8th I found I couldn't take the six chimeras I wanted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/04 04:36:18


 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






 RegularGuy wrote:
These tempt me lol
The issue I run into is without a good number of bodies I'm finding it hard to dominate primaries. I suppose I should be happy for the conundrum to figure out.

Has anyone had any success with mech infantry? I was finding chimeras going down rather fast. Also the points change from 8th I found I couldn't take the six chimeras I wanted


I've had some good games with my 133rd lions list that runs 6 taurox primes.

The additional ap from 133rd and reroll 1s aura warlord trait makes for mean taurox primes. Then pile out 50ish scions. I have 2 versions from there. A patrol with 2 manticore and MoO. Or 2 avenger strike fighters and an officer of the fleet.

The 2 strike fighters are really nice for character hunter and harassment.

The manticore version does what manticores do.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I have always had luck with lambdans and tauroxes. I note kappic eagles is a good buy, too, for mechinf.

Like
patrol kappic eagles.
1 tempest prime (ke)
3x 5 man scions with 2 hsvg each (kappic eagles)
1 x 4 man command squad with 4 hsvg (ke)
lambda lions group with tempest prime (warlord, relic) and command squad and 3 10 man infantry spouting a bunch of melta and plasma
6 taurox gatling/hsvg2's
2 vendetta gunships with 2 heavy bolters each
officer of the fleet
astropath

This list is nice cause its got some alpha strike melta action, potentially, and the big vendettas paint a beautiful distraction as you talk up how much you love their paint job, how they are -1 to be hit in hover mode, how much you like them. Since lambda lions tauroxes can transport kappic eagles infantry, you put them all intauroxes and you put the lambdans in deepstrike. Or you put them allll in tauroxes. Or you load the command squads and a few meltas into the flyers for an alpha hit. Or you load all the hsvg for the same idea.

Point is, you can do it all sorts of ways, you have WAY more transport than you need, and all the transport is shooting really well.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 CommunistNapkin wrote:
I really think they just need to put all the "kill stuff" secondary objectives under a single category. No reason players should be able to take 3 different "just kill your opponent's army" as secondaries.


I've been proposing this change (plus a nerf to Abhor the Witch to 2/3 pts and a little rework of the Tally to work on non Vehicle/Monster WOUNDS rather than models) since the leaks of the GT Tournament Pack 2020...guess I was right after all
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Or just abolish them altogether.

Your already rewarded for killing your opponent's stuff as its no longer shooting back.
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






U02dah4 wrote:
Or just abolish them altogether.

Your already rewarded for killing your opponent's stuff as its no longer shooting back.


Always thought points for killing things was a terrible idea, and back in 7th, I talked our local tournament organizers out of such objectives.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






I didn't mind First Strike, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker the way they were in the past.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, my thought for the day is, there are a LOT of types of marines out there right now counting on the ability to move indestructible troop groups slowly forward while their enemies struggle to kill a few T5, W3 units. People are building against the toughness and resilience and wounds of those units (hence the crazy popularity of the S10/-2/3 manticore). But as gaurd, we have the potential to build against their relatively poor mobility, using flyers and manticores -- thus forcing the marines to split from one end of the field to the other in a desperate bid to reach the tormenting indirect fire, while flyers with longer ranged guns flit about the board edges and focus fire on them relatively unprotected (haha, I know) marines.

It seems like a lot of the marine cheese right now is apothecary (not much we can do) but a lot of it is also more things like rapidly moving bikes, and those, I suspect would struggle (especially things like outriders) to slaughter flyers. Suspect.

Thoughts?

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Necrons now represent over 8% of all competitive lists (and have a 54% winrate), and Harlequins are the real deal. Custodes and Deathguard are both rarer but still competitive. Sisters are one of the best factions in 40k.

Space Marines are no longer the be-all and end-all of the meta, is what I'm saying.
   
Made in us
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 grouchoben wrote:
Necrons now represent over 8% of all competitive lists (and have a 54% winrate), and Harlequins are the real deal. Custodes and Deathguard are both rarer but still competitive. Sisters are one of the best factions in 40k.

Space Marines are no longer the be-all and end-all of the meta, is what I'm saying.


I agree and that is awesome! I just have never been to a tournament where I didn't face some sort of marines in at least one round.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran





Netherlands

So, which flyers would be your pick? I like the Vendetta obviously, but it only has six shots. However, teaming it up with Arabia Madellan and an officer of the fleet makes it a killing machine. Thunderbolts are also one of my favorites and good for the job with some missiles.

Hoe about kitting out the valks? I like keeping them cheap so no lascannon. But it's the single hellstrike missiles shot worth taking over 2d6 rocket pod shots?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Its a 10 point difference in price for another 2d6-1 shots against things that you want to kill multiple easy modles of.

Also consider that aradia only gives +1 to hit to an INFANTRY unit. So its useful on some scions (especailly stormtrooper doctrine) but its not going to assist any flyers.
Spoiler:
Like hordes of horrors, even.
I like running "royal" valkyries, with the lascannon on it and the extra heavy bolters to augment the multirocketpods. All those things are going to cost you just as many points to buy on a squad of heavy weapons or in a 10 man gaurd unit -- but valkyries have bs3+ (hover) and can get reroll 1's. and can waft across the board to present easy firing lanes and then vanish offboard to keep from giving the enemy points from a crippled bird.

Seems like you have a 14 wound platform that is inherently -1 to be hit, with T7. Why not stick a lascannon and potentially 18 (really about 13) shots of s5/-1/1 on it? Its going to annoy, distract, and perform well.

Vendetta I arm up the same way. 3 of them are pricey, but 3 vendetta + 2 full payload manticores can often win the armor to armor fight while the enemy's dreadnaughts struggle to get in range, or their demolisher equipped leman russ tank commanders languish 39 inches away. I ain't saying that it is a perfect lineup, but you can cut big holes in a marine heavy infantry army with such firepower, while dancing well away from the massed bolterfire (that will have a hard time killing these birds in most cases). Remember you can slow movement with a kill from the flyers, too, if you have scion strats from PA)

Especially cause I usually have a tiny scions detachment at a minimum in the game, so the tempest prime is usually extra warlorded to bring old grudges. Now I can pick a single "easy to wound" thing ... one knight, one piece of enemy heavy armor, one critical monster, or one 10 man unit of heavy intercessers, and give all those shots of heavy bolter rerolls to wound (long as they are near the wld). I might point the lasers elsewhere, but the combination of OG and s5/-1/1 or 2 shooting from a few valkyries can cripple a big, expensive marine unit over a few rounds, especially if you are also stripping out cover with an astropath you brought along. 18 heavy bolters at 3+ with reroll 1's (in an army with just 3 valky) and another 6d6 s5/-1/1 (bs3+ with reroll 1's) is a pretty astonishingly good load of mixed dakka. To fight gravis armor use old grudges, then interlace 2d and 1d weapons so you can slowly chip away at the enemy without wasting lots of either damage type on odd numbered big marines. To kill just marines, doesn't matter the order so much, but you probably want to pick one unit to hit with just heavy bolters (kill, kill, kill) and one to hit with the other guns (wound, kill, wound, kill, wound, kill) so you don't waste any damage. Even a marine apothecary is going to struggle to keep multiple units up to full strength, if you are spreading the pressure around and killing a couple models here, a couple there.

Anyway, that's my thougth -- I think a valkyrie with full dakka loadout is better in your army for anti-horde than a wyvern is. Multilaser + 6 + 2d6 shots gives you about 16 shots at bs3+, wiht reroll 1's, and enough penetratoin to ignore ork armor, and enough strength to offset the wyvern's reroll wounds.
So a 24 shot wyvern hitting 12 times compares pretty well to a 16 shot valkyrie hitting about .. 12.5 times. You can however ALSO unload a squad or two of elite infantry (potentially adding in 12 grenade launchers from just the right spot that your opponent doesn't want to have to charge back to) for another 42 or so shots at long range. Or mabye you use it to deliever a bunch of scions up close with precision drop, and they shoot another 36 times. That's a trick you can't so easily do with the wyvern. Anyway, my point is, if you think of the valkyrie as a free wyvern that ALSO gets to act as a transport on turn 1 with a 45 inch range, remember a full dakka valkyrie costs only about 15 points more than a wyvern, which has 3 fewer wounds, 1 less toughness, isn't -1 to be hit, can't fly away, and can't cope well with enemy armor saves. A full dakka valkyrie with the lascannon on the nose may fire 2 shots less, but at 30 points more, it can mess up enemy armor in ways few wyvern can.


Anyway. I like both birds a great deal, to deliver a constant irritation to the enemy and distract a great deal of return fire. Flyers have the added advantage that they can hover back to a friendly engenseer in a pinch. So a tiny contingent of admech with a double heal capable engenseer is an option here -- allowing 2d3 heals per turn + 1 for the strategem juryriggers for a wounded flyer. That's pretty good odds of keeping a few in service longer than anyone expected (especailly with liberal defense buffing going on from an astropath).

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/12/06 02:36:06


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




Northern Virginia

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
So, which flyers would be your pick? I like the Vendetta obviously, but it only has six shots. However, teaming it up with Arabia Madellan and an officer of the fleet makes it a killing machine. Thunderbolts are also one of my favorites and good for the job with some missiles.

Hoe about kitting out the valks? I like keeping them cheap so no lascannon. But it's the single hellstrike missiles shot worth taking over 2d6 rocket pod shots?


I feel that Vendettas are better now that they don't suffer the -1 to hit for moving now, and stay at +4BS instead of going to +5BS while moving or giving your opponent an easy target with hover. Since it can act as a transport as well, you could pack it full of scions for added punch when you drop them out.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




U02dah4 wrote:
Or just abolish them altogether.

Your already rewarded for killing your opponent's stuff as its no longer shooting back.


No way. Killing stuff is the point of the game. They should totally rework secondaries, or scrap them. They should use modified 7ed fantasy victory conditions- count up how many points of the enemy you killed, they do the same to you. For the modified part, add in extra points for holding objectives per turn, extra points for holding objectives at the end (who cares who has something turn 3, its at the end of the game is when it matters!), and bring back the victory condition where you win if you table the opponent. Warhammer games have always been about your cool stuff taking out the opponents cool stuff. Trying to move away from that spirit is really annoying.

This format would have cost me some games this edition, but it would have made my opponent much happier. As they would have rightly been rewarded for near tabling me over the course of 5 turns.

Anyways, that's enough of that mini-rant tangent.

As to actual guard tactics-

Has anyone used ogryns? They are very cheap. I am slowly building up a scions force, and I am thinking of having a squad or two of ogryn and bullygrn in the army.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/06 10:54:01


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Peterborough

I can't see past infantry at the minute. Hope new Codex addresses this.

Skewing heavily to infantry horde allows for very efficient regiment traits.
Disciple shooters/wilderness survivors is so great simply because it is a buff that is always in use. Every model in army benefitting all the time. Everything ob sec (almost) again is very efficient - i'll be watching with interest what retains ob sec moving forwards - as such a ground holding edition.

Theory crafting it out i'm looking at dropping psychic too - simply because they give up warpcraft secondary (abhor the witch) too easily.

This means against an infantry horde guard list I think I'm going to give up pretty easily:

Assassinate (purge the enemy)
Thin their ranks (no mercy, no respite)

leaving them to pick up whichever 3rd secondary movement/action based secondary suits their list.

Its this give up on points that makes infantry tricky to do well, once you move beyond thinking about killing stuff.

So still pondering....


40k for the second time around. This time with kids! https://40kguarddaddy.weebly.com/40k-family.html 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think vendettas cost too many points to risk expensive infantry in them carelessly but a thing you can easily do is drop 10 gaurdsmen each on your way down the field to strafe. While you might lose a few to the gravchute dice, you probably end up with about 18 or so infantry to combine squads with over an objective, then go to ground and support with an astropath 18 inches further back. Viola, you have 18 5+, 4+, 3+ save infantry. If you happen to be wilderness survivors, you have 18 2+ save gaurd infantry, and you can probably get another gaurd squad in to join on turn 2. That's going to drive even marine dakka units absolutely bonkers as they struggle to get there, and then discover that even in melee, you are still 3+ to save.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

It's looking like one thing Guard can do very well is put cheap units all over the board quite easily.

Linebreaker should be an easy score and if you can mess with with your opponent's home objective so much the better.

How about the Arvus Lighter as a way of doing this in turn 1? I could probably proxy/convert a model quite cheaply (the other great strength of guard!).

If it's airborne above an objective, does the squad inside exert any control over that objective?


My painting and modeling blog:
PaddyMick's Chopshop

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 PaddyMick wrote:
It's looking like one thing Guard can do very well is put cheap units all over the board quite easily.

Linebreaker should be an easy score and if you can mess with with your opponent's home objective so much the better.

How about the Arvus Lighter as a way of doing this in turn 1? I could probably proxy/convert a model quite cheaply (the other great strength of guard!).

If it's airborne above an objective, does the squad inside exert any control over that objective?



The thing about the Arvus is that its still over 100 points, I believe. That's pricey for something with zero offensive output. But it does get units where they need to be! I have never tried them out- I think it could be fun.

I don't believe the squad inside the transport would matter at all for contesting/claiming and objective. Transports with troops in them used to have objective secured, i think, but that was several editions ago. I do not believe anything like that still still stands.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

According to the core book there is nothing to stop models in transports claming objectives - but I could be reading that wrong. The question for me is they have to be within 5'' vertically and the 'airborne' rule does not give a height. I am sure it's probably been faq'd somewhere, like the no reserves after turn 3 rule (core book doesn't mention this either -I don't think).

It feels like models that are in an airborne transport should not count (and I know Aircraft themselves never do) but hovering ones should.

Some days, when I'm done studying for my 40k rules exams, I go read War and Peace cover to cover to relax.

Oh and it's 125 points with a crappy weapon. Agree bit pricey - needs a Kamikaze strategem so it can take out some marines when it's done transporting.

My painting and modeling blog:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





a unit can not do anything, nor be affected in any way, while it is inside a transport. I reckon that includes objective grab. The fine read of transports notes you remove them from the board.

Valyrie can cost as little as 110 points. That's stll as well armed as the arvus but its not as expensive, I don't see the allure of the FW crap here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/06 18:41:04


Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Dukeofstuff wrote:
a unit can not do anything, nor be affected in any way, while it is inside a transport. I reckon that includes objective grab. The fine read of transports notes you remove them from the board.

Valyrie can cost as little as 110 points. That's stll as well armed as the arvus but its not as expensive, I don't see the allure of the FW crap here.


Cool OK. I wish the objective rules made it clear.
Didn't realise Valkryrie was so cheap in points, I should have checked that first. It will definately be harder to make one of those (I can't afford the official model) but I may give it a go.

I look upon the forgeworld datacards as oppurtunities to try something different and do some conversions. Got some 'powerlifters' on order, they look like a good pick, at the same price in points each as a bullgryn.


My painting and modeling blog:
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Made in us
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Magnetize the valk carefully. With a bit of gunswap its also a creme de la fleet gunship vendetta. 6 lascans of joy and still does everything else (except bs4 ehen hovers)

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 PaddyMick wrote:
...
How about the Arvus Lighter as a way of doing this in turn 1? I could probably proxy/convert a model quite cheaply (the other great strength of guard!).

This came to mind as a cheap proxy amongst friends:

http://www.genetmodels.com/ebbles-miniatures-2009-2010-models/


Or this one:
http://www.genetmodels.com/download/589/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/06 21:39:47


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Cheers, paper models like that would be good for trying stuff out before committing to a proper model. I gather some people use paper titans fro apocalype and I don't blame them.

So another thought about getting on objectives. Are we the only army that can move in the shooting phase? I am thinking blast the opponent off the objective with artillery and then Move Move Move onto it. A way to replace their guys with yours in the same turn and without getting into combat.

My painting and modeling blog:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Moveing in during the shooting time can also be done with tallarn (only) leman russ orders. So its a skill we have two ways to pull off that few other armies can.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





 PaddyMick wrote:

So another thought about getting on objectives. Are we the only army that can move in the shooting phase? I am thinking blast the opponent off the objective with artillery and then Move Move Move onto it. A way to replace their guys with yours in the same turn and without getting into combat.


Important to note that Move Move Move is one of the two orders that is resolved immediately upon issuing it, meaning that the movement must take effect before any shooting occurs. It's definitely possible that an enemy unit blocks your infantry from being able to get to the objective with M^3.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:

So another thought about getting on objectives. Are we the only army that can move in the shooting phase? I am thinking blast the opponent off the objective with artillery and then Move Move Move onto it. A way to replace their guys with yours in the same turn and without getting into combat.


Important to note that Move Move Move is one of the two orders that is resolved immediately upon issuing it, meaning that the movement must take effect before any shooting occurs. It's definitely possible that an enemy unit blocks your infantry from being able to get to the objective with M^3.

Plus orders must be done at the start of the shooting phase. I'm sure you know that but many newer players often don't, which is fair because GW seems to change how orders are done every edition since they came out

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