I hate that so many wants to play space marines

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**Beardedragon**

BrianDavion wrote:
Ya know what I Hate? I hate people who judge other people for playing the army they want. Thats what I hate, Marines get the love they do because so many people "Want to play space marines" If Marines didn't sell well they'd not get this level of support.

seriously complaining that people play an army? that's childish. Marines have always been a top selling faction even when they've been middling tier at best.

Grow up people. focus on you doing you, and let others do them. and stop getting your panties in a twist because someone chooses to play an army thats *gasp* popular.

OP here.

Who is complaining that people is playing Space Marine? I sure didnt, nor was that the point of my thread. i even quite literally specified it wasnt an anger post about people actually playing space marines so i have no idea who you specifically refer to with your post.

**AnomanderRake**

Beardedragon wrote:
...Who is complaining that people is playing Space Marine? I sure didnt, nor was that the point of my thread. i even quite literally specified it wasnt an anger post about people actually playing space marines so i have no idea who you specifically refer to with your post.

Read the title of your thread again carefully.

**stroller**

"I hate that..." seems an excessive reaction. Space marines have always been the poster boys. Probably always will be - part of the "brand" - and painted blue at that.

They're popular. They're the saviours of the Imperium so of course they're stupidly good.

It's unlikely to change, so, harsh as this sounds, learn to deal with it.

**Beardedragon**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
...Who is complaining that people is playing Space Marine? I sure didnt, nor was that the point of my thread. i even quite literally specified it wasnt an anger post about people actually playing space marines so i have no idea who you specifically refer to with your post.

Read the title of your thread again carefully.

If you only read the title and not any of the content then you're not really making a proper reply. In fact you're just blindly making a reply thats barely worth two grots in terms of content related to the topic, when you dont even read the opening post.

besides i said i hate that so many wants to play space marines. That doesnt mean i hate the player itself nor am i saying he cant play what the feth he wants.

I hate the situation, not the person; it causes an imbalance because GW refuses to acknowledge the rest of the factions as equals. So maybe you should read the opening post, carefully, yourself.

**nekooni**

Beardedragon wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
...Who is complaining that people is playing Space Marine? I sure didnt, nor was that the point of my thread. i even quite literally specified it wasnt an anger post about people actually playing space marines so i have no idea who you specifically refer to with your post.

Read the title of your thread again carefully.

If you only read the title and not any of the content then you're not really making a proper reply. In fact you're just blindly making a reply thats barely worth two grots in terms of content related to the topic, when you dont even read the opening post.

besides i said i hate that so many wants to play space marines. That doesnt mean i hate the player itself nor am i saying he cant play what the feth he wants.

I hate the situation, not the person; it causes an imbalance because GW refuses to acknowledge the rest of the factions as equals. So maybe you should read the opening post, carefully, yourself.

The other factions arent equals. They should be in terms of balance, but they will never be in terms of popularity and model range. Those ships have sailed a long time ago.
SM aren't popular because of their rules, they were even popular despite their rules. It's not like SM are constantly a Tier 1 army or that the current (abyssmal) state of balance is a normal thing.

*edit*As a primarily SM player I'm probably just as pissed as or even more pissed than you at GW since it directly affects MY primary army, and I have to put in the work every single fething game to properly tune my list to whatever opponent I'm going to play so that we end up with a decent match, without me just going "lolyougoteradicatored/contemptored/aggressored" every time I bring my Salamanders to the table.
I've restricted myself from using Eradicators and most FW models right now due to the piss poor job GW did in the Field Manual, and I'd really like to get back to using those without feeling like an donkey-cave for bringing them.

**Giantwalkingchair**

I'm more annoyed the GW seem to have bought into their own marine power fantasy fan spank and and just keep 1-upping them every other week.
To me, marines are not meant to be these super powerful auto win trump cards up the imperium sleeve. They were made to subdue humanity and are therefore humanity +1, but against the other monstrous alien species of the galaxy, they're supposed to work hard to come out on top because of the aliens inherent inhumanity.

They're slower than the eldar. Weaker than an ork. Squishier than the Necrons. Less organised than the tyranids hive mind.
And against chaos, hoo boy, those are supposed to be marines +1.

Instead we get the space marine fan spank where marines are the bestest in the galaxy and better than everyone else at everything and it starts coming through in the rules.

So then we get people who play because marines are shoved down their throats 24/7. And people who play because they just want to have a horse in the race. And then some people who actually just like the look of them.

**nekooni**

Isn't that exactly what Space Marines are portrayed as in the lore, though? I think one of the major issues with SM Lore vs rules was that for a VERY long time marines were depicted as these badass superhumans while they were just squishy necron warriors, weak ork boys or slow eldar on the tabletop ?

**BrianDavion**

nekooni wrote:
Isn't that exactly what Space Marines are portrayed as in the lore, though? I think one of the major issues with SM Lore vs rules was that for a VERY long time marines were depicted as these badass superhumans while they were just squishy necron warriors, weak ork boys or slow eldar on the tabletop ?

pretty much. thing is Marine players have been saying for ages that they want marines to be, and feel like an elite army. yet prior to 8.5 that wasn't the case. tactical marines where 3 times the points of a guardsman yet only about 33% as effective. GW's reponse prior to 8th edition was to keep lowering the points and frankly... marine players didn't like that (if we wanted a hoard army we'd be playing the guard) I think over all GW is still trying to tweek marines to be what they need to be

**JNAProductions**

I don't doubt that, in the hazy, far-away beginning, Marines were a popular army in their own right.

But now, regardless of power, they're the single most-supported army in all of 40k, and by a pretty wide margin to boot.

Marine Releases (7th edition-Now)

Spoiler:

Chaos Releases (7th Edition-Now)

Spoiler:

Overall total might not look that bad... 50 SM releases to 64 Chaos ones.

But Chaos is an entire super faction, comprising CSM, Daemons, and should have R&H (but they're being squatted, is the rumour). If I run Nurgle Daemons (and I do) I got 7 releases. And one is Furies, who are generic Daemons.

Whereas for Marines, I left off anything that's not generic.

**nekooni**

JNAProductions wrote:
I don't doubt that, in the hazy, far-away beginning, Marines were a popular army in their own right.

But now, regardless of power, they're the single most-supported army in all of 40k, and by a pretty wide margin to boot.

Yes, because they're popular. Releasing a Marine kit or book is safe, reliable profit. Much more profit that releasing any Xenos kit could ever bring.

**Insectum7**

They were always popular, but tere's a case to be made that some of their popularity is due to the tail wagging the dog. The thing is GW seems to want to make the tail even stronger.

A Space Marine profit train for GW I suppose, but it sure seems like a death spiral from a game design perspective sometimes.

How do you make Eldar Aspect Warriors more appealing when the basic Space Marines will just roflstomp them?

**BrianDavion**

nekooni wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
I don't doubt that, in the hazy, far-away beginning, Marines were a popular army in their own right.

But now, regardless of power, they're the single most-supported army in all of 40k, and by a pretty wide margin to boot.

Yes, because they're popular. Releasing a Marine kit or book is safe, reliable profit. Much more profit that releasing any Xenos kit could ever bring.

Keep in mind GW is a incorperated company. they have share holders they answer to. Shareholders whom are intreasted in getting their money back. stepping back from my fandom and thinking like an investor (who proably basicly thinks he's invested in a toy company) "you're relasing orks? Marines sell much better, release marines" GW does have profit targets, this is why we get so many marines. because GW KNOWS Marines will meet or exceed targets

**Insectum7**

BrianDavion wrote:
nekooni wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
I don't doubt that, in the hazy, far-away beginning, Marines were a popular army in their own right.

But now, regardless of power, they're the single most-supported army in all of 40k, and by a pretty wide margin to boot.

Yes, because they're popular. Releasing a Marine kit or book is safe, reliable profit. Much more profit that releasing any Xenos kit could ever bring.

Keep in mind GW is a incorperated company. they have share holders they answer to. Shareholders whom are intreasted in getting their money back. stepping back from my fandom and thinking like an investor (who proably basicly thinks he's invested in a toy company) "you're relasing orks? Marines sell much better, release marines" GW does have profit targets, this is why we get so many marines. because GW KNOWS Marines will meet or exceed targets

A great reason to remain a private company.

**BrianDavion**

Insectum7 wrote:

How do you make Eldar Aspect Warriors more appealing when the basic Space Marines will just roflstomp them?

I mean the idea behind eldar is fast, hard hitting and fragile. problem is some of their aspects have just aged poorly. howling banshees for example just aren't hard hitting eneugh.. honestly I'd give Howling banshees' and strking scorpions a shock assault rule just as a start

**Insectum7**

BrianDavion wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

How do you make Eldar Aspect Warriors more appealing when the basic Space Marines will just roflstomp them?

I mean the idea behind eldar is fast, hard hitting and fragile. problem is some of their aspects have just aged poorly. howling banshees for example just aren't hard hitting eneugh.. honestly I'd give Howling banshees' and strking scorpions a shock assault rule just as a start

I'd be more specific and say that Aspect Warriors are supposed to be rough equals to Space Marines, except more specialized. Excelling in their specialty against Space Marines, but vulnerable in their non-specialty field. This is what gives the Space Marines reason (and design space) around being generalists who "punch the shooty ones and shoot the punchy ones."

I think the only Aspects that actually compete in that way these days are Spears and Dark Reapers.

**Eonfuzz**

using lore as an excuse is disingenuous, as Eldar are sold to be better than marines (not needing armor to not die, silent, deadly, fast etc). Orks don't need armor either to not die, often being sewed back together and living.

Aside from the literal trash chickens like guardsmen and cultists everyone's fluff is exaggerated, except people who say "MaRinEs AmAZinG inFlUff" have only read marine fluff.

**NinthMusketeer**

Quite frankly, if GW were competent at balancing it would not be a problem. Yeah Marines would get more model love, but people who liked other factions could still have good games that way.

However, GW is not competent at balancing (by intent, apathy, or both) which kicks other problems into the park. A big one that I see gets missed sometimes is the flexibility of the models. Any given Marines army is not OP all the time, but at any given point in time there is at least ONE marine army which is. And due to the nature of marine models it is relatively easy for a large swathe of the player base to shift over to a successor chapter of whoever's fotm (or at the least away from one that sucks). Couple with the update frequency and it is a recipe for, well...

**quantumquixote**

Fact of the matter is Space Marines cannot be a top tier army and make up 50% of all armies if you want your game to work. They should be mid tier, not because Space Marines suck or because their players suck, but because 50% of games you play are against them. They're basically a core mechanic of the game and are the sea level of the game. You raise them up too high and most armies will simply drown. Give them all the model releases if that raises money for making models for other armies, give them a bunch of useful tools that they can use, but don't make them good at everything because then the game breaks. Nearly half of everyone else are playing on hard mode, and some armies are more or less unplayable against them, which means some armies are more or less unplayable in general because Space Marines are everywhere.

**Matt Swain**

Marines have no weaknesses, Marines have more gear, strats, characters, etc than anyone else by a long shot.

This guy does a good job explaining why this is so and why gw will never fix it.

https://youtu.be/sXDPwcHtj7U

I think we just need no spess muhreens games and events. The imperium has other armies to fight for it after all.

Admittedly it's a bigger issue for the forces of chaos.

Maybe there could be a space marine tax, you play marines, you get 10% fewer points.

**Oaka**

Blndmage wrote:
I'm almost planning on continuing to use my xenos armies, but with then space marine rules.

We're actually pretty close to having a Primaris unit that functions like each aspect warrior. A Biel-Tan Swordwind army, using Primaris rules and all the cool third-party model sculpts, has crossed my mind.

**Hellebore**

Oaka wrote:
Blndmage wrote:
I'm almost planning on continuing to use my xenos armies, but with then space marine rules.

We're actually pretty close to having a Primaris unit that functions like each aspect warrior. A Biel-Tan Swordwind army, using Primaris rules and all the cool third-party model sculpts, has crossed my mind.

I'm basically advocating for this at the moment. People should just use counts as for their xenos army with the marine codex.

Scotsman did up a pretty good list using marine rules to represent an Eldar army.

You can even represent Orks with blood claws, as they have the worst BS of any marine unit.

Just counts as and.your army will feel far more interesting and useful...

**Dudeface**

Imagine how peaceful and positive these boards would be if everyone who has a problem with space marines were restricted to their own subforum.

Bit like a leavers queue in video games, you only get matched with people of similar temperament. There wouldn't be pages upon pages of threads and posts wasting space about space marines are op, space marines are too popular, space marines are too favoured by GW, space marines need banning, space marines make it so every race is an NPC, space marines make me feel like my army is trash, space marines got a range refresh in the tiny space of time I've been play and my army didn't, space marine players should be banned from this club etc etc.

**Tygre**

Maybe all Space Marines should be packaged with a Xenos, or other non Space Marine, equivalent. So Space Marines are never sold separately. So every Space Marine player would have a secondary army as well.

"So you want to buy a unit of unit of Intercessors. Do you want the one with the Dire Avengers squad or the one with the Ork Mob?"

Note: I am not being serious. But it is fun to think about.

**BrianDavion**

Tygre wrote:
Maybe all Space Marines should be packaged with a Xenos, or other non Space Marine, equivalent. So Space Marines are never sold separately. So every Space Marine player would have a secondary army as well.

"So you want to buy a unit of unit of Intercessors. Do you want the one with the Dire Avengers squad or the one with the Ork Mob?"

Note: I am not being serious. But it is fun to think about.

in fairness Tygre, GW basicly does that. Most space marine players I suspect "bulk their army out" via battle boxes and then add a few specialists on.

**Karol**

Well, buying two Know no fears and a dark empire is a very good start to have a Primaris and DG army. So it does have its upsides, if someone can afford it, and wants more then one army.

**ccs**

tneva82 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
For the one reason that Space marines gets updated faster and more updated than the rest of the factions.

Like GW give two farts about Xenos. We're going to suck untill our codex even comes out, where as space marines received many updates by the end of 8th.

And not only that but its boring that all boxes have to contain space marines one way or the other.

I just wished more people would play other factions than space marines to balance out what content gets released as well as when.

Why play npc faction? Tim 12yo's would love though. More npc's to crush

For the same reasons I'd play factions/lists others deride as weak/useless/etc in any other game.
1) Do they contain enough models that I like the look of? If so, sign me up & I'll worry about how to win/have fun with them. And I'll be fine.
2) For the challenge of it. Of course I can stomp you with the best stuff. That's not in doubt. Let's see what I can do with this stuff you all deride as garbage.....
3) Combining reasons 1 & 2, is there some weird twist I can put on the force?

**Apple fox**

ccs wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
For the one reason that Space marines gets updated faster and more updated than the rest of the factions.

Like GW give two farts about Xenos. We're going to suck untill our codex even comes out, where as space marines received many updates by the end of 8th.

And not only that but its boring that all boxes have to contain space marines one way or the other.

I just wished more people would play other factions than space marines to balance out what content gets released as well as when.

Why play npc faction? Tim 12yo's would love though. More npc's to crush

For the same reasons I'd play factions/lists others deride as weak/useless/etc in any other game.
1) Do they contain enough models that I like the look of? If so, sign me up & I'll worry about how to win/have fun with them. And I'll be fine.
2) For the challenge of it. Of course I can stomp you with the best stuff. That's not in doubt. Let's see what I can do with this stuff you all deride as garbage.....
3) Combining reasons 1 & 2, is there some weird twist I can put on the force?

I have tried doing this for years, It just wear me down in the end. I also was unlucky enough to have a few buffs and then nerfs, its a real pain. Its one of the reasons i got into other games, where these sort of issues not really much problem.

**mrFickle**

Space marines are popular for lots of reasons despite their rules. They are a primary part of the brand for sure and it wouldn’t surprise me if most plays have enough SM models knocking around to make a 500 point army ba us they come with every starter kit. But if GW put as much effort into hyping up other armies there would be more people playing those armies. It’s hype, it’s stories/cannon/ it’s cool factor and if GW invested time and effort In developing other faction like this then they would sell better

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I think someone else said it, the people at GW clearly love SM and sometimes I think they are just developing the armies they like play best

**Eldarsif**

I don't hate space marines, but I do get tired of seeing everyone around me gravitate towards Space Marines ending with me playing against Space Marines 24/7. This is a pitfall that GW is running towards with the brakes broken; a pitfall that might end up causing more damage than good in the long run.

Thankfully there are other games so if things become dull and boring I can take an extended break from 40k.

**the_scotsman**

Karol wrote:
Well, buying two Know no fears and a dark empire is a very good start to have a Primaris and DG army. So it does have its upsides, if someone can afford it, and wants more then one army.

It's funny, marines end up in so many box sets and board games that I almost wound up with a 2000pt list accidentally, by buying my Genestealer Cults army.

I started with their launch box which was Deathwatch Overkill, which got me

-A deathwatch Chaplain
-A deathwatch Librarian
-a 5-man veteran squad
-a biker
-2 vanvets
-A terminator

and then I got my purestrains because I had the Space Hulk box kicking around, which got me

-A terminator captain
-A terminator librarian
-~12-ish terminators?

I grabbed a box of sternguard and a box of the multipart veterans to play Kill Team and get all the gear that the deathwatch vets have access to in KT, and I was baaaasically there. Just added 1 more box of vanvets and I had a solid 2000pts army for a total of about a hundred bucks.