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mrFickle wrote:
I think GW are following the same sad route to profit as a lot of video game companies where if you pay more you can better at the game because you get better gear. If you keep buying the new releases they will come with buffed stats, pay to win

This has been proven wrong many times in the past. And just look at all the other threads on top right now. Vanguard Veterans, Vindicator, Command Squads, Terminators (in summary: old Marines that everybody already own) get buffs to their stats and weapons. Marine player have to pay 0$ extra for their old models to be stronger.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not aware. The problem is that understanding and awareness doesn't do much.

Like yes, I get that Thunderwolf guys have +1 wound and Rending over Bikes, who do not. But that's not significantly different enough that I don't just roll my eyes and say "okay, they're bikes with extra flash"
And yeah, I get that Death Company are Black Templars angry marines that wear black, and they're so angry that they become Iron Hands able to shrug off wounds and get an extra attack, but like, that's just Black Templars with an apothecary. It's not different.

I am aware of the differences, and remain unconvinced. It's like if someone tried to argue that the sky was "Azure" and not "Blue". I'm like "sure, buddy...."

Exactly, they mostly play the same units and have similar playstyles with some exceptions (white scar bikers which rely on mobility for example),

Compare the various space marine chapters to the Eldar craftworlds or the tau sept and you see pretty fast that the space marines chapters have less variety in the playstyles they encourage.

Biel-tan is about mass aspect warriors that use they specialisation to overrun the enemy.
Saim-Hann is about being fast as feth, boiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.
Iyanden is about having unrelenting vehicles.

Farsight enclave is about going in close to the enemy to unleash your firepower.
Bor'kan is about staying way the feth back and outranging the enemy.

Marines are basically :
Grey punchy dudes, Red punchy dudes, Black punchy dudes.
Black shooty dudes, Yellow shooty dudes, Green shooty dudes.
and then you have white scars that actually play a different angle.

Yes, the chapters can be customized more to give you more specific gameplay styles with the supplements. Sadly, we don't have non-marines supplements so other armies don't get to play how fluffy they want.

I'm all for using marines rules to make my eldar feel like eldars at that point



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
Wow, this thread is the worst.

Thanks for your valuable argument.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
Wow, this thread is the worst.

Thanks for your valuable argument.

It takes a LOT for me to give up on trying to provide one.

mrFickle wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
Marines should be good at everything, but they should also be great at nothing. I long time ago marines used to be able to out shoot melee and out punch ranged armies and thats where they sat.

today marines do everything at the A or S tier, Marines should be a B tier all around army. that would give you more design space to have armies that may be A or S tier in 1 or 2 things and C to F tier in others.

its ok for an army to be well rounded, have no weaknesses but no real strengths either, its not ok to have a faction with all strengths and no weaknesses.

its also ok to have a faction have an inherent weakness to another faction, in a giant game of rock paper scissors, but there should never be a faction that is the nuclear bomb of rock paper scissors.

Space marines are like that Empath that have no personality of their own but feeds off and mimics the personality of others, to such a degree that they now have every armies personality to themselves while those armies have lost their own identities.

All armies should have strengths and weaknesses and the winner of the game should be down skill as a player the luck of the dice. The idea that one army should be better than another or they should be tiered is wrong, we aren’t playing against AI

Thats not what i was trying to get at but i dont have the energy to clarify it right now

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then the issue here is subjective and as you mentioned in another thread, better not to hinge on subjective discourse.

It's not worth arguing about subjectivity, no, but what I want Marine players to see is that there is a point-of-view held by some (me) in which "Marines are Marines, whether Red, Blue, Green, Light Blue with Beards, etc." so saying "Marines weren't OP this edition because it was Blood Angels who were OP" just makes me go

Ok, noted. You have an odd PoV that doesn't sync with reality.

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then the issue here is subjective and as you mentioned in another thread, better not to hinge on subjective discourse.

It's not worth arguing about subjectivity, no, but what I want Marine players to see is that there is a point-of-view held by some (me) in which "Marines are Marines, whether Red, Blue, Green, Light Blue with Beards, etc." so saying "Marines weren't OP this edition because it was Blood Angels who were OP" just makes me go

Ok, noted. You have an odd PoV that doesn't sync with reality.

So when Chaos has a dominating tournament build that's a Thousand Sons Supreme Command, a Nurgle Daemons Battalion, and a Spearhead of CSM, I'm sure you were the first to say that none of them are OP on their own, and in fact, Chaos in general needs to be boosted, while reigning in only the outliers.

 LunarSol wrote:
Wow, this thread is the worst.

There seem to be a few threads competing for that title at present, but this one is certainly getting up there, I'll give you that.

Beardedragon wrote:
For the one reason that Space marines gets updated faster and more updated than the rest of the factions. This thread isnt to shame space marine players, it just saddens me that the balance is thrown out the window due to the amount of people playing Space Marines and how popular they are. The fault isnt with the player but with GW. There is money in space marine, not apparently in the rest of the factions.


Like GW give two farts about Xenos. We're going to suck untill our codex even comes out, where as space marines received many updates by the end of 8th.


And not only that but its boring that all boxes have to contain space marines one way or the other.

I just wished more people would play other factions than space marines to balance out what content gets released as well as when.

you know, I'm really going to laugh at threads like these when we get past November and learn that the next 18 months is going to be 90% Chaos and Xenos releases. Which is what will happen.

 Togusa wrote:
you know, I'm really going to laugh at threads like these when we get past November and learn that the next 18 months is going to be 90% Chaos and Xenos releases. Which is what will happen.

I'm sure that most people predicting otherwise would be utterly overjoyed to be proven wrong. They want to be able to tattoo "I was wrong!" on the side of their various genitalia, opposite an image of the best new Chaos or Xenos unit.

They just haven't been given a reason to do so quite yet.

 JNAProductions wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then the issue here is subjective and as you mentioned in another thread, better not to hinge on subjective discourse.

It's not worth arguing about subjectivity, no, but what I want Marine players to see is that there is a point-of-view held by some (me) in which "Marines are Marines, whether Red, Blue, Green, Light Blue with Beards, etc." so saying "Marines weren't OP this edition because it was Blood Angels who were OP" just makes me go

Ok, noted. You have an odd PoV that doesn't sync with reality.

So when Chaos has a dominating tournament build that's a Thousand Sons Supreme Command, a Nurgle Daemons Battalion, and a Spearhead of CSM, I'm sure you were the first to say that none of them are OP on their own, and in fact, Chaos in general needs to be boosted, while reigning in only the outliers.

You'd be wrong. I don't give a damn about how bad your tourney scene sucks. (other than lamenting it's not bad enough to discourage people & GW from focusing on it) So I would never argue for rules changes +/- with that environment as a concern.

But you're problem doesn't come from the factions you've listed in that pile-o-Chaos. It comes from allowing multiple detachments in the 1st place. That's a basic rules flaw, followed by a flaw in your tourney organizations, not a Chaos or SM, etc problem.

Likewise if BA are OP? Then the problem most likely stems from the BA rules.

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then the issue here is subjective and as you mentioned in another thread, better not to hinge on subjective discourse.

It's not worth arguing about subjectivity, no, but what I want Marine players to see is that there is a point-of-view held by some (me) in which "Marines are Marines, whether Red, Blue, Green, Light Blue with Beards, etc." so saying "Marines weren't OP this edition because it was Blood Angels who were OP" just makes me go

Ok, noted. You have an odd PoV that doesn't sync with reality.

It makes sense to me and I can see how it lines up with reality. Even if I am not totally in agreement. Maybe try looking at his position from a different perspective? At any rate, not understanding does not mean his position fails to sync with reality.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Karol wrote:

Well if you pick examples like that then yes. But what is the difference between an annoying eldar and annoying tau list? Or slanesh demons and khorn demons?

On the other hand GK and marines have some weapons in common, and even those often worked or work different.

Also there is a huge difference between a faction being good and nice to play with, when majority of people play them, then when some fringe faction like eldar makes it unfun for majority of players. I haven't played in 6th or 7th, but from what I have been told everything bad that come in those edition came from the fact that GW made eldar rule, so crazy that they almost killed the game, and the only way for marines to come in even close to eldar in power is to be given hundreds of free point.

I didn't pick those examples, lol. That's rather my point. And the difference between an annoying Eldar list and an annoying Tau list is freaking huge. Eldar look different, play different, are OP in different ways - I mean hell, the Tau were OP with gigantic stompy robots while the Eldar were OP with tiny flying motorcycles. Why is that even a question? Of course they're different.

Your last argument boils down to "marines should be OP because many people play them" which is just... . No faction should be OP regardless of players. And you're right, it took SM hundreds of free points to match Eldar power in late 7th.

Do you know what Space Marines got in late 7th? wow hundreds of free points so they could match eldar, who could've suspected!?
Do you know what other armies got in late 7th? nothing to match the Eldar, that's for damn sure

Funny how, when an army is unexpectedly overperforming, the first and last army to receive buffs to match them is Space Marines...

ignoring Necrons who gave Decurions their name now are we?
they got what was it a 4+ FNP?

It is a shame.

But hey, that's the poster boys for you. It's the same everywhere: the mostly advertised 'thing' gets the most publicity, so therefore makes the most money, which therefore receives the most support, and therefore is the most advertised 'thing'- and repeat.

Even when marines weren't meta 'good' (aside from specific cheese builds), lots and lots of people still wanted to play them. This would be the same for if any other faction were the true poster boys of 40k: but hey, it wouldn't be modern 40k without the boys in blue everywhere.

And now that marines are good and are continuing to get support to get even better? I mean what did we expect.


But dakka just loooooves letting the salt flow

Beardedragon wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been a 40k plague since 40k became a thing. Space Marines are what makes 40k be 40k with its mega massive population.

Take away space marines and... that would be an interesting experiment.

im not interested in taking away space marines, i really just want GW to balance out what content they make rather than always focusing on space marines.

But i know they wont do anything for balance as they care too much about money to be bothered.

Its not GW fault if people do not buy Eldar, you should be thankful so many people are willing to even try out the hobby by getting into it because of Space Marines. If everything you are complaining about did not keep sales up, then GW would not exist. This game would not exist. And this forum would not exist for you to complain on. So why don't you start saying " boy, I am sure glad people are throwing money at GW for Space Marines, otherwise I wouldn't get to play my Xenos armies when the new codex drops every few years ". You are sadly not wise to the way the world is and what has to be done to keep this hobby alive. You should be grateful.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been a 40k plague since 40k became a thing. Space Marines are what makes 40k be 40k with its mega massive population.

Take away space marines and... that would be an interesting experiment.

im not interested in taking away space marines, i really just want GW to balance out what content they make rather than always focusing on space marines.

But i know they wont do anything for balance as they care too much about money to be bothered.

Its not GW fault if people do not buy Eldar, you should be thankful so many people are willing to even try out the hobby by getting into it because of Space Marines. If everything you are complaining about did not keep sales up, then GW would not exist. This game would not exist. And this forum would not exist for you to complain on. So why don't you start saying " boy, I am sure glad people are throwing money at GW for Space Marines, otherwise I wouldn't get to play my Xenos armies when the new codex drops every few years ". You are sadly not wise to the way the world is and what has to be done to keep this hobby alive. You should be grateful.

I should be happy that they do a lousy job at balancing? Making lots of models for space marines, which i dont care a ton about, has nothing to do with their skills at balancing the game and how they do it.

Try again.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been a 40k plague since 40k became a thing. Space Marines are what makes 40k be 40k with its mega massive population.

Take away space marines and... that would be an interesting experiment.

im not interested in taking away space marines, i really just want GW to balance out what content they make rather than always focusing on space marines.

But i know they wont do anything for balance as they care too much about money to be bothered.

Its not GW fault if people do not buy Eldar, you should be thankful so many people are willing to even try out the hobby by getting into it because of Space Marines. If everything you are complaining about did not keep sales up, then GW would not exist. This game would not exist. And this forum would not exist for you to complain on. So why don't you start saying " boy, I am sure glad people are throwing money at GW for Space Marines, otherwise I wouldn't get to play my Xenos armies when the new codex drops every few years ". You are sadly not wise to the way the world is and what has to be done to keep this hobby alive. You should be grateful.

I should be happy that they do a lousy job at balancing? Making lots of models for space marines, which i dont care a ton about, has nothing to do with their skills at balancing the game and how they do it.

Try again.

people don't join the hobby and decide to play space marines because space marines are the most powerful faction. New players come into 40k and typically pick up space marines because....






etc. Marines are, for better or worse, the most depicted faction in media outside of the table top. etc. basicly to the casual outsider Marines are the FACE of 40k

Well, I stopped playing loyal Marines as they are getting more and more boring.
There are some different builds out there but the variety is not large when you aim for a competitive army.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I stopped playing loyal Marines as they are getting more and more boring.
There are some different builds out there but the variety is not large when you aim for a competitive army.

in fairness do any armies have a TON of variety when you're trying to be super compeitive?

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I stopped playing loyal Marines as they are getting more and more boring.
There are some different builds out there but the variety is not large when you aim for a competitive army.

in fairness do any armies have a TON of variety when you're trying to be super compeitive?

I worry a bit about the tourney scene.
Imagine you go with your IH army to a tourney and you play twice vs. IH, and once vs. RG, Salies, and IF.
Too boring if you ask me. The game would go in the wrong direction and we are not far away from it.

So Marines have a good variety of tournament level lists is what you say. Your 5 games could all be against the same Iron Hands list, after all.

Would be cool if other factions would get similar selection in their codices

Even if there's little variety in some tournament lists, actually being able to play different factions is nice. Throughout 8th I went to plenty of tournaments and in the middle I had a couple where all my 5 games were vs Imperium Soup and towards the end of the edition I had plenty that were just 5 games vs Marines. Obviously there are lots of reasons to play tournaments; for the challenge, to meet new people, for the joy of competition... but having variety and interesting matches is actually really important too. In 8th I saw a lot of people try out local tournaments for the first time and initially really enjoyed them, especially because some of the local ones weren't super tryhard ITC-level play. Some of them even got deeper into comp play and tried out more and more "serious" tournament events. It was great to see.

But the Marine 2.0 dex basically just killed a lot of that. People were either not willing to go and play 3-5 games versus Marines in a day/weekend and get absolutely stomped in all of them and equally plenty of others were almost embarrassed by the power of their army and how braindead and autopilot it was. For the guys who used comp play as a way to meet new friends and have some cool interesting games, Marines have basically destroyed that for the foreseeable future. (even without COVID)

The best example of this was the local GT my club ran. In 2018 there were something like 60 spaces initially, but then the owner basically had to convert the entirety of the club over to 40k for the weekend because there was such huge demand. I think eventually 70-80 people took part in it? Fast forward to a post-Marine Dex GT and he couldn't even get 50 people interested. Final numbers were in the mid 40's or something.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Even if there's little variety in some tournament lists, actually being able to play different factions is nice. Throughout 8th I went to plenty of tournaments and in the middle I had a couple where all my 5 games were vs Imperium Soup and towards the end of the edition I had plenty that were just 5 games vs Marines. Obviously there are lots of reasons to play tournaments; for the challenge, to meet new people, for the joy of competition... but having variety and interesting matches is actually really important too. In 8th I saw a lot of people try out local tournaments for the first time and initially really enjoyed them, especially because some of the local ones weren't super tryhard ITC-level play. Some of them even got deeper into comp play and tried out more and more "serious" tournament events. It was great to see.

But the Marine 2.0 dex basically just killed a lot of that. People were either not willing to go and play 3-5 games versus Marines in a day/weekend and get absolutely stomped in all of them and equally plenty of others were almost embarrassed by the power of their army and how braindead and autopilot it was. For the guys who used comp play as a way to meet new friends and have some cool interesting games, Marines have basically destroyed that for the foreseeable future. (even without COVID)

The best example of this was the local GT my club ran. In 2018 there were something like 60 spaces initially, but then the owner basically had to convert the entirety of the club over to 40k for the weekend because there was such huge demand. I think eventually 70-80 people took part in it? Fast forward to a post-Marine Dex GT and he couldn't even get 50 people interested. Final numbers were in the mid 40's or something.

2018 was the launch year of 8th edition. that by itself would explain the heightened intrest

thing is, Marines got nerfed, but right around that time a global pandemic hit, I mean yeah no one in their right mind would claim iron hands was balanced. even without the codex supplements and super doctrines it was clear they had an edge over every other chapter.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Even if there's little variety in some tournament lists, actually being able to play different factions is nice. Throughout 8th I went to plenty of tournaments and in the middle I had a couple where all my 5 games were vs Imperium Soup and towards the end of the edition I had plenty that were just 5 games vs Marines. Obviously there are lots of reasons to play tournaments; for the challenge, to meet new people, for the joy of competition... but having variety and interesting matches is actually really important too. In 8th I saw a lot of people try out local tournaments for the first time and initially really enjoyed them, especially because some of the local ones weren't super tryhard ITC-level play. Some of them even got deeper into comp play and tried out more and more "serious" tournament events. It was great to see.

But the Marine 2.0 dex basically just killed a lot of that. People were either not willing to go and play 3-5 games versus Marines in a day/weekend and get absolutely stomped in all of them and equally plenty of others were almost embarrassed by the power of their army and how braindead and autopilot it was. For the guys who used comp play as a way to meet new friends and have some cool interesting games, Marines have basically destroyed that for the foreseeable future. (even without COVID)

The best example of this was the local GT my club ran. In 2018 there were something like 60 spaces initially, but then the owner basically had to convert the entirety of the club over to 40k for the weekend because there was such huge demand. I think eventually 70-80 people took part in it? Fast forward to a post-Marine Dex GT and he couldn't even get 50 people interested. Final numbers were in the mid 40's or something.

2018 was the launch year of 8th edition. that by itself would explain the heightened intrest

thing is, Marines got nerfed, but right around that time a global pandemic hit, I mean yeah no one in their right mind would claim iron hands was balanced. even without the codex supplements and super doctrines it was clear they had an edge over every other chapter.

No, 2017 was the launch of 8th. Even in early-mid 2019, local tournaments were heaving with players and in actual fact average numbers of people competing or just playing at the club were going up. Until Marines 2.0 came out.

I remember having a conversation with the owner of the club/shop and he said while he'd made a lot of money from the new Dex and models, he also got a lot of his business from people playing games at the club who would also decide to maybe pick up some models or paints while there, and how a lot of that had dried up because Marines had basically killed interest in playing the game for a lot of the local community.

And while the Codex and its Supplements have had nerfs, they're still obscenely strong and still not very enjoyable to play against at a competitive or casual level. Now with things opening up, people are still avoiding Marine armies on the whole unless they're specifically looking for competitive practice, or it's a Crusade campaign game. You can try and defend the armies all you want and just blame everything on IH, but there's plenty of problematic design choices in all of those books. When a Tyranid player sees that an Intercessor sergeant is more powerful in CC than their Hive Tyrant, it basically just kills their enthusiasm to play. And that's not even necessarily a balance issue; that's design and enjoyment-based.

I just want better balance and a better way of them balancing over all.

This whole crap where they make new over all rules for 9th edition that feths up many factions and then wait with releasing their respective codexes to make up for what ever rules they made is just slowed.

They should release the 9th edition rules along ALL codexes at the same time.

Like, i play orks, and i feel like, im pretty F'd untill i get my codexes out. Obviously marines got some pretty handy FAQs by the end of 8th so they're semi covered, but orks, tyranids, horde melee factions and other armies are screwed over untill we get that codex going.

They basically made a lot of terrible changes for ork players that made us limper along the way, hoping for the codex to drop soon so we can become whole again.

Because the Orks, and many other factions (but very much horde melee factions) are fighting fractured right now. Like we have half the rules but missing the other half.

or starting a boxing match with 1 arm only.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been a 40k plague since 40k became a thing. Space Marines are what makes 40k be 40k with its mega massive population.

Take away space marines and... that would be an interesting experiment.

im not interested in taking away space marines, i really just want GW to balance out what content they make rather than always focusing on space marines.

But i know they wont do anything for balance as they care too much about money to be bothered.

Its not GW fault if people do not buy Eldar, you should be thankful so many people are willing to even try out the hobby by getting into it because of Space Marines. If everything you are complaining about did not keep sales up, then GW would not exist. This game would not exist. And this forum would not exist for you to complain on. So why don't you start saying " boy, I am sure glad people are throwing money at GW for Space Marines, otherwise I wouldn't get to play my Xenos armies when the new codex drops every few years ". You are sadly not wise to the way the world is and what has to be done to keep this hobby alive. You should be grateful.

I should be happy that they do a lousy job at balancing? Making lots of models for space marines, which i dont care a ton about, has nothing to do with their skills at balancing the game and how they do it.

Try again.

So it is your opinion that GW is lousy at balancing. I think they are doing a good job. People decide to play Space Marines because they think they can win tournaments with them. There are people who have no imagination and just copy and paste what people tell them what is good on the internet. If these people actually decided to play the game for real, and came up with their own armies, you would see alot less Space Marines lists at tournaments and public events. Being a copy and paste player shows that you are a new player to the game, because you have to copy and paste what other people are doing to compete. This is nothing new, its been going on for a long time. I wish other people had more creativity and went for their own lists instead of looking at the internet and going " o m g Marines are the meta right now, lets copy/paste and win some tournaments lol rotfl ".

So, Crusader-what army will you rock tournaments with?

GSC? Slaanesh Daemons? R&H?

Since, apparently, people who can tell what’s good and what’s bad suck at the game.

When's the last time someone won a super major with a super unique list nobody else took or thought of?

The "the game is balanced, everything works, people just don't realize it" thing is empirically false. If it was true, you'd see weird, unique lists winning super majors, and you just don't.

Now that is different from saying that you can do better with bad lists and factions than you might think. That bit is true. Things aren't usually as bad balance-wise as people say.

But there's a reason "netlists" are the ones that win the major tournaments most of the time. It's not that tournament players lack imagination; far from it, they are the ones who come up with the netlists by going through all the possibilities and settling on what works best most of the time. Broviathan didn't win LVO because everyone at LVO was lacking in imagination, it won because it was the strongest list in the game at the time. Siegler would be the first to admit that if he had taken something like GSC, he would not have won LVO, and almost certainly someone else taking Broviathan would have won instead.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This has been a 40k plague since 40k became a thing. Space Marines are what makes 40k be 40k with its mega massive population.

Take away space marines and... that would be an interesting experiment.

im not interested in taking away space marines, i really just want GW to balance out what content they make rather than always focusing on space marines.

But i know they wont do anything for balance as they care too much about money to be bothered.

Its not GW fault if people do not buy Eldar, you should be thankful so many people are willing to even try out the hobby by getting into it because of Space Marines. If everything you are complaining about did not keep sales up, then GW would not exist. This game would not exist. And this forum would not exist for you to complain on. So why don't you start saying " boy, I am sure glad people are throwing money at GW for Space Marines, otherwise I wouldn't get to play my Xenos armies when the new codex drops every few years ". You are sadly not wise to the way the world is and what has to be done to keep this hobby alive. You should be grateful.

I should be happy that they do a lousy job at balancing? Making lots of models for space marines, which i dont care a ton about, has nothing to do with their skills at balancing the game and how they do it.

Try again.

So it is your opinion that GW is lousy at balancing. I think they are doing a good job. People decide to play Space Marines because they think they can win tournaments with them. There are people who have no imagination and just copy and paste what people tell them what is good on the internet. If these people actually decided to play the game for real, and came up with their own armies, you would see alot less Space Marines lists at tournaments and public events. Being a copy and paste player shows that you are a new player to the game, because you have to copy and paste what other people are doing to compete. This is nothing new, its been going on for a long time. I wish other people had more creativity and went for their own lists instead of looking at the internet and going " o m g Marines are the meta right now, lets copy/paste and win some tournaments lol rotfl ".

Well i dont think they are doing a good job.

They even release half assed armies like Khorne Daemons which barely works on their own without helping them with rules or buffs.

I think they do a bad job at balancing and i think they do a bad job at the way they balance too.

Like, why would you release new game rules, without releasing the codexes as well? Untill every faction has their first 9th edition codexes, the entire tournement aspect of warhammer 40k is basically the wild west. Many factions are unable to properly paticipate or to even try winning as it stands right now, BECAUSE GW didnt bother releasing the codexes along side the 9th edition rules. Playing with 8th edition codexes on a 9th edition rule set is just stupid.

BUT some factions, namely space marines get some neat updates before 9th came out. Im not really angry that they got that, but it just means they stand super strong versus the rest of us who are stuck in a mud right now. We aint getting anywhere untill the new codexes comes out.

And we both know the codexes are already finished, they're just waiting with the releases.GW makes these codexes ahead of time.

So tell me, what am i, an ork player who has a main focus on getting up close and personal horde style, supposed to do? Just lose most my battles and keep a straight face? We all know i wont be winning anything unless i play another faction thats gotten flipped the middle finger by GW like Genestealer cults or tyranids. OR unless my enemy cuts me some slack and actually deliberately picks a weak army setup to balance things out.

I dont mind losing, but i hate fighting unfair battles, and right now, its unfair for orks, and many other factions.

Horde based melee armies are in dire need of help after the 9th edition rule set was rolled out. And that help will most likely not arrive untill the codexes are released. at least i hope they will help.. i have to believe that.

And then the codexes probably wont even come out all at once, they'll bring out a codex at a time which ONCE AGAIN create unfair advantages for the races that receives codexes first. this is just another point to explain why GW sucks at balancing the game.

Why would GW want the game to be balanced when they can mess with the rules to get tourney players to buy the flavour of the month? Why wouldnt they go after that market? If competitive players are throwing money @ GW so they can ROLFSTOMP the next guy, GW would be remiss if they didn't.

Dont complain about how unfair it is, the best thing for you to do is vote with your $€£¥ AND STOP GIVING THEM MONEY IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT THEY'RE DOING. It's the only way for customers to influence the corporation. Otherwise, shut up.

The new models look good and irrespective of their rules, normal people will still buy them. Rules have never(except my Squats being squatted) influenced my purchases and it shall continue in that way.

It really only is an issue for competitive players.

Because the tournament players are likely the minority and by catering to their perceived majority they could make more money? They'd likely do it anyway to push the new model as being good in order to push its sales either way.